Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

[Posts multiplying like rabbits]

And there's the only reason in the world to buy the wargear book. To defend your own intent arguments against space marine players.

"If they had meant for a terminator to have a 2+/5i save, they would have printed that, eh?"

Pathfinder Devilfish DONT SCOUT.

For a start this restriction doesnt affect the Pathfinders and any drones that are part of the team as Pathfinders Scout and are deployable as Scouts i.e seperate from their transport. This is valid as Scouting units overule the normal deployment rules, thus overuling the transport deployment rule.

You may choose to deploy with the transport as you may choose not to scout if you wish. Scout rules are not mandatory. But if you dont scout you must deploy with the transport as normal and if you are delayed by escalation your bad tactics are to blame.

Its CLEAR that Pathfinder Devilfish dont scout as the Marker Beacon rule they benefit from only applies if the Devilfish is on the table. So Devilfish can be off table in reserve as part of normal deployment.

They can also be off the table if they are destroyed. That doesn't prove anything.

Why are we even discussing this? According the the Tau codex there are no stats or price allocated to anything called a pathfinder, pathfinders don't exist. They are nothing but a myth.

Posted By happypants on 04/24/2006 8:02 PM
They can also be off the table if they are destroyed. That doesn't prove anything.

Why are we even discussing this? According the the Tau codex there are no stats or price allocated to anything called a pathfinder, pathfinders don't exist. They are nothing but a myth.

Wicked, so I won't be seeing any of them on the table tomorrow night then?

Why are we even discussing this? According the the Tau codex there are no stats or price allocated to anything called a pathfinder, pathfinders don't exist. They are nothing but a myth.

I lost you.

You might see a Pathfinder Team consisting of 4-8 Shas'la and a Devilfish.

Well, in that case, Happypants, Fire Warriors don't really exist either, right?

@bigchris, that is totally right, in fact because you need at least 1 firewarrior team and firewarriors don't exist it is impossible to field a tau army under the RAW

Posted By Orlanth on 04/24/2006 4:13 PM
Pathfinder Devilfish DONT SCOUT.

 

 

 

 

 

 

kindly show me were it says they do not in the codex

 

the entry for pathfinders says 4-8 shas'la and a devilfish = a  pathfiner team

under the special rules for the pathfinders-IE pathfinder teams as it appears in the FOC

they have scout.

 

to me this is a no brainer. it is a description in the entry for a fast attack selection called pathifnders in the FOC and the descriptions for the entry says that entry has scout. and just because it is a vehicle does not mean it does not get scout. guard sentinels are vehicles treated like walkers yet they also get scout.

 

 

here is a simple solution for the no-scout camp, until GW comes out with another specific FAQ on the subject like they did in 3rd ask any tau player you intend to play if he is going to scout with his pathfinder team(including the fish) . if they answer yes and you you are not cool with that then simply refuse to play them. if it is a RTT or some other sanctioned event simply tap the outrider/judge to make a call on it for the game in question.

under the special rules for the pathfinders-IE pathfinder teams as it appears in the FOC

Invalid conclusion. If Pathfinders = Pathfinder team, then every model can scout. In that case, the Devilfish can be armed with EMP grenades and/or photon grenades. In addition, the Pathfinder team "must select a Devilfish troop carrier."

I guess each pathfinder team gets 2 transports, only one of which may scout.

Pathfinders =/= Pathfinder team. Based upon the "must select a Devilfish" phrase alone, this is self-evident.

Posted By bigchris1313 on 04/26/2006 1:40 AM

under the special rules for the pathfinders-IE pathfinder teams as it appears in the FOC

Invalid conclusion. If Pathfinders = Pathfinder team, then every model can scout. In that case, the Devilfish can be armed with EMP grenades and/or photon grenades. In addition, the Pathfinder team "must select a Devilfish troop carrier."

I guess each pathfinder team gets 2 transports, only one of which may scout.

Pathfinders =/= Pathfinder team. Based upon the "must select a Devilfish" phrase alone, this is self-evident.

 

 

your argument is flawed

the vehicle transport rules and upgrades for vehicles/troops are already clearly defined in the core rulebook and the tau dex wargear sections.

as per the FOC chart entry pathfinders = a team of 4-8 troops with thier allowed upgrades and a mandatory devilfish transport with it's available upgrades plus it's special role as a pathfinder devilfish.

this applies to pathfinders as found in the FOC entry which includes thier ability to be forward scouts and a fast attack choice.

Q. Can the Devilfish bought for a Pathfinders squad make a Scout move before the game?
A. No, the squad has the Scout rule, but the vehicle does not. So the Pathfinders may use the special rule?s extra move only if it begins the game not embarked on their transport.

Dont be suprised to see this exact wording in the next few weeks (with minor editing I guess)

Codex Tau Empire. Page 39:

......

Strain: The unit consists of a Strain Leader and 3-10 Stingwings

......

Fleet of Wing: The Stingwings are surprisingly agile (snip). They are Fleet, as described in the (snip)

Can the Vespid Stingwings Fleet?

Codex Tau Empire. Page 37:

......

Squad: The squad numbers from 10-20 Kroot, 0-12 Kroot Hounds, and 0-3 Krootox Riders.

......

Fieldcraft: Kroot gain +1 to their Cover Save in woods and jungles.

......

Do Hounds and Oxes gain a +1 to their Cover Save in woods and jungles?

Codex Space Marines. Page 34:

.....

Number/squad: Sergeant and 4 to 9 Space Marine Scouts

....

Stealth Training: All Scouts posses the Infiltrate and Move Through Cover skills (snip)

....

Can a Scout Squad Infiltrate and Move Through Cover?

Codex Tau Empire. Page 38:

....

Team: Consists of 4-8 Pathfinders and a Devilfish.

.....

Scouts: Pathfinders are Scouts, see the universal special (snip)

.....

Can a Pathfinder Team Scout?

---------------------

It all boils down to; does this "Pathfinders" refer to a Pathfinder Team? Does this "Scouts" refer to a "Scout Squad"? Does this "Kroot" refer to a Kroot Carnivore Squad"? Does this "Stingwings" refer to "Vespid Stingwings"?

Some say "Yes", some say "No". Some say "Yes" to some of them, some say "No" to some of them.

I'd say the chance for a reasonable conclusion to this problem is long past, and all we do now is getting Mauleed agitated.

Hey, if Vespids with their 'strain leader' get to fleet, would not a Broolord with his genestealer retinue also get to fleet?

The only (slight) difference is that the stingwings (which fleet) are required to have a Strain Leader (who does not fleet, and is not an IC)). Whereas it is the Broodlord (who does not fleet, and is an IC) who is required to have a genestealer retinue (which fleets).

Hmmm...fleeting Broodlords might actually become worth taking...

Its not even remotely the same thing.
You are not helping.....at all!

Your example would work if Genestealers couldnt "Fleet" and the Broodlord entry said " Fleet: The Broodlord may fleet coz its mighty fast!." But it doesnt.

Codex Witchhunters. Page 36
----------
Number/squad: Sister Superior and 4-9 Seraphim
----------
Hit and run: At the end of a round of close combat, the Seraphim may choose to break.....(snip)
----------
Can a Seraphim Squad Hit and Run?

Steelmage:

The two examples you provide are not similar in the least. Stingwings are a single unit with a single entry in the codex, their unit special rules apply to the unit.

The Devilfish/Pathfinders are a different beast. You have two seperate units with two different codex entries.

Does the Devilfish's codex entry list that it has the Scout special rule? If not, then you will be hard pressed to prove that it does.

No, we have one entry; Pathfinder Team. The Pathfinder Team consists of two separate elements.

"Stingwings (Pathfinder Team) are a single unit with a single entry in the codex, their unit special rules apply to the unit."

One side insists the wording of the Scout rule in the Pathfinder Team entry excludes the Devilfish, since only "Pathfinders" are mentioned in said text. Should the same insistence not be applied to the wording of the Vespid Stingwing entry?

The fact that the Devilfish can be found other places in the Codex does not exclude
this particular Devilfish from being affected by a separate set of rules.

The Veteran Sergeant appears several times in the Space Marine Codex, but only the Veteran Sergeant in a Scout Squad gets to have "Stealth training".

Not all Veteran Sergeants are exactly alike, though they share the same name. Not all Devilfishes are exactly alike though they share the same name.

Posted By Steelmage99 on 04/28/2006 10:09 AM
No, we have one entry; Pathfinder Team. The Pathfinder Team consists of two separate elements.

"Stingwings (Pathfinder Team) are a single unit with a single entry in the codex, their unit special rules apply to the unit."

One side insists the wording of the Scout rule in the Pathfinder Team entry excludes the Devilfish, since only "Pathfinders" are mentioned in said text. Should the same insistence not be applied to the wording of the Vespid Stingwing entry?

The fact that the Devilfish can be found other places in the Codex does not exclude
this particular Devilfish from being affected by a separate set of rules.

The Veteran Sergeant appears several times in the Space Marine Codex, but only the Veteran Sergeant in a Scout Squad gets to have "Stealth training".

Not all Veteran Sergeants are exactly alike, though they share the same name. Not all Devilfishes are exactly alike though they share the same name.

 

could not have said it better myself

Either the "Pathfinder-Devilfish can't scout"-side have conseded or they cant be bothered to reply. So in conclusion.....a Devilfish accompaning a Pathfinder Team can indeed scout.

so whats the point here. sounds like you guys are all saying the same rhetoric over and over and over and over and over again.

@ Neighsayers to the devilfish having the scout ability: neither you or anyone else in their right mind would actually implement this into a game, or you'll be hardpressed to find opponents. If what you are saying is true (which after 7 pages I don't care) then you need to also come to a general concensus on how to actually play it. as you can see no one is truly satisfied with RAW... ever. 1/4 of the time RAW doesn't make sense and so you must have 'house rules' to actually accompany them.

@ yaysayers to the devilfish having the scout ability: are you guys seriously falling for this argument once again? you guys know that if they are right, then the rule is broken and needs 'house rules' to fix them. there is no point trying to argue (expecially with people who you would never play, simply because RAW doesn't always work.)

Posted By happypants on 04/25/2006 11:46 AM
@bigchris, that is totally right, in fact because you need at least 1 firewarrior team and firewarriors don't exist it is impossible to field a tau army under the RAW

ROFLOFL. Ok I didn't ROFL but I did LOFL.

The point about the Marker Beacon is a good one. How couldn't the devilfish be on the table if it has the scout rule? Well I believe that's because the scout USR says they may start on the table, yadda yadda yadda.

That does bring up another point though. Can you still use the Marker Beacon after the devilfish has been destroyed by a glancing 6 (leaving it on the table)?

Note: read my sig, new today.

Posted By Steelmage99 on 04/30/2006 7:39 PM
Either the "Pathfinder-Devilfish can't scout"-side have conseded or they cant be bothered to reply. So in conclusion.....a Devilfish accompaning a Pathfinder Team can indeed scout.

If it makes you happy we'll say it again. But nothing's changed in the last 6 pages.

Pathfinders may scout. Devilfish may not.

Happy?

Ahoj!

Pathfinders may scout. Devilfish may not.

And a Devilfish with Pathfinders inside?
Borys

Well, Mauleed. You could at least try to say something constructive.

But by your definition Scout Squads cannot Scout either.

RAW does not prevent us from using common sense. If a given interpretation of the rules lead to a massive breakdown within the rules-framework then said interpretation cannot be valid. RAW is modifiable, for instance by the "Break No Rule" (Dakka TM).

If the "Pathfinders" in the Pathfinder Team's Scout rule only apply to the Pathfinders themselves and not the Devilfish, then the framework collapses. This collapse lead to the Scout Squad not being able to Scout.

So, my question to you, Mauleed, is this; By using you interpretation, Can Space Marine Scout Squads Scout?

And a Devilfish with Pathfinders inside?

Be carefull not to fall in to the trap of thinking that all Devilfishes are alike just because the share the same name. Because they most certainly are not.

Mauleed insists that they are, but conviently dodges the issue of Scout Veteran Sergeants and the ability of Scout Squads to Scout....oh well.

 

PS. im almost certain to be accused of being either stupid or a cheater in short time.

PS. im almost certain to be accused of being either stupid or a cheater in short time.

Probably, but you're not helping yourself by getting your terminology wrong. Space Marine Scout Squads can't Scout no matter what rules you look at. You probably mean Infiltrate.

I could restate the same simple point over and over, that the devilfish can't scout because they lack a scout rule, but I said that on page 1.

Holy frijoles!

Can we start over here?


The last, and only, premise-conclusion formatted post on why Devilfish can have Scout was posted back on PAGE 1 IN THE 5th POST by Basileus66, and was immediately shot down.

Can one of you in the pro-scout camp PLEASE post a properly formatted argument stating why the Devilfish can Scout? It is you who is attempting to give a vehicle a rule normally reserved for troops after all, and you must prove that you can do something before you do it.

(Pg 24, Tau Codex)

Unit Name: In addition to the name, this may also show a limitation on the maximum number of choices you can make of that unit type (0-1, for example).

Number/Team/Squad etc: This shows the number of models in the unit, or the number of models you may take for one choice from the Force Organization chart. Often this is a variable amount, in which case it shows the minimum and maximum unit size.

Further down,

Special Rules: This is where you'll find any special rules that apply to the UNIT. (Caps for emphasis).

On this page, it clearly states that all models under the Number/Team/Squad entry form ONE UNIT. Then, under the special rules it clearly states that those rules apply to the UNIT. And, because as per the Team Entry for Pathfinders, one UNIT of Pathfinders is made up of 4-8 Pathfinders and a Devilfish. As such, they form one UNIT.

From this, and the Pathfinder entry, the obvious conclusion is that unless specifically mentioned (As in the case of the Marker Beacon rules for the Pathfinder's Devilfish) that the Special Rules listed in the UNIT ENTRY apply to the entire UNIT.

Otherwise, Stingwings cannot fleet of foot, Veteran Sergeants in Space Marine Scout squads cannot Scout, and numerous other special rules would be negated. However, this is clearly not the case.