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Hey all,

More fun with the newly updated Pathfinders for you all to look at. Pathfinders have the Scout USR instead of their 'Forward Scouts' rule from the old codex. However, their attached Devilfish does NOT. This results in some changes from the way Pathfinder units were played previously.

As the Devilfish does not have Scout, it cannot benefit from the pre-game movement. This negates a long-held tactic, using the Devilfish to shift Pathfinders 12" and dropping them into forward locations. The Pathfinders themselves may move on foot, but the vehicle remains stationary.

Although this weakens the unit a bit, this does clear up the question if Devilfish count as moving fast during the pre-game move, since moving fast only applies for moving during the previous turn. The pre-game move is not a prevoius turn obviously, but most players played it that the Devilfish still counted as moving fast.

Unfortunatley, another rules issue does appear in this new codex. In Escalation games, units with the Scout USR may start on board even if they were not normally legal to deploy. The deployment rules say that units are deployed as a single entity, including dedicated transports. Now, in an Escalation game, how do Pathfinders deploy?

A) The Pathfinders and their Devilfish start off-board in Reserve. Although Pathfinders have the Scout USR, the deployment rules override this and since the Devilfish does not have Scout, the entire unit cannot deploy.

B) The Pathfinders and their Devilfish start on-board. Although the Devilfish does not have Scout, the Pathfinders do and since the entire unit must deploy together, the Devilfish will start on board.

C) Only the Pathfinders start on board. Since the Devilfish does not have Scout and is bound by Escalation, it may not start on-board. The Pathfinders do have Scout and as such, are deployed as usual.

D) Only the Devilfish starts on board. The power of conflicting rules throws the game design into a temporal vortex, and the Infinite Improbability Drive rule means that the most unlikely choice is the correct one.


Thoughts, comments? Personally, I lean toward interpretation C as the deployment section tells us how to place units, which is a general rule. General rules can be overridden by specific ones (i.e. the Scout USR). I do recognize that this is a definite change from the way it was played previously. I believe that if the Pathfinder Devilfish was intended to move with the Pathfinders, it would have been given the Scout USR also. There is also precedent for vehicles having a USR, as the Imperial Guard Sentinel has Scout as part of its rules.

I learn to towards C too.

I am hopeful that it was all just a mistake and when they get around to producing new FAQs (as they've publicized) it will be addressed that the Devilfish also gets the Scout rule.

GW blew it. Again.

As far as I can tell, it's A. I don't want it to be A, but it's got ot be A. How can you deploy a unit without the dedicated transport purchased for it?

I have to agree with Chris.

The rule in the old book did not allow the devilfish to scout; the same exact situation exists here. Really, nothing has changed. Worst of all, however, is the fact that while we have been talking about that earlier omission for over a year, no FAQ has covered it and no change was made in the new book.

I don't see the problem. At least in Spanish seems pretty clear:

P1: Scout rule allows to deploy on board even if the scenario forbid it (escalation would be one of those scenario special rules)

P2: The description of the Pathfinders team says that the team is formed by 4-8 pathfinders plus Devilfishs and that they have scout rule.

C: Both can deploy as per scout rule in escalation.

Anything else makes no sense in any circumstance. Not per RAW, not per logic.

Basileus66 - Actually the problem arises because the codex states "Pathfinders have the Scout Universal rule".  It actually doesn't state that the squad, or the Devinfish, does.  Unless the Spanish Codex is phrased different.

I can see this either way.  I've always moved the Devilfish before the first turn since my Pathfinders are always in it, but I don't know about escalation.......  Seems to me that I'd probably let my opponent have the tank, since the fluff intent seems to be that the Pathfinders use the Devilfish to keep ahead of the rest of the army.

Actually, the 3rd edition Tau FAQ DOES allow the Pathfinder Devilfish to move in the pre-game along with their Pathfinders. So I've never really had a problem moving my Pathfinders at high speed in the pre-game. I have had people bring up issues like if the 'Fish could be penetrated and whatnot.

So now we have the choice of breaking the deployment rule (with the Devilfish coming in from Reserve) or breaking the Scout USR (by keeping the Pathfinder infantry off-board). Whereas the Infiltrate USR has the language that it does not allow units that would not deploy normally to appear on board (i.e. Stealthsuits or Veteran Raptors in Escalation), Scout has no such langugage and in fact says the opposite!

Right, you said it - the third edition FAQ. If you use the old FAQs, why not just keep applying the spirit of them to the current rule? Of course you haven't had any problem - everyone realizes this is one of those messed up rules, and plays it like it should be writting, i.e. with "scout" written in the Pathfinder Devilfish entry. Is it correct? No - but that hasn't changed how it's handled.

What I'm saying is that the rules-correct answer is that neither come onto the table if either only could using "scout". However, in the real world, they both count as having "scout". Of course, your mileage may vary. I would say check with your tournament organizer before going to a tournament, but as we have seen, that doesn't seen to work either.

pathfinders and devifish are part of the same unit. they must go together as per the rules.

since pathfinders have the scout abilty and the fish must be  part of the unit,. the fish is part of the units allotment of equipment and thus has the scout abiltiy.

since pathfinders have the scout abilty and the fish must be part of the unit,. the fish is part of the units allotment of equipment and thus has the scout abiltiy.

Not true. Pathfinders have the scout ability. Their dedicated transport is purchased simultaneously, and it goes in the same place in the FOC; however, the two are distinct units. You certainly would not argue that a dedicated Razorback would be given the Tank Hunter special rule if you took some Elite Devastators with Tank Hunter using Honor Your Wargear, would you? Of course not.

Two distinct units. One has the ability to scout. One does not. The Pathfinders get screwed in Escalation.

As I said almost 9.5 hours ago: "GW blew it. Again."

Posted By mughi3 on 04/10/2006 10:24 PM

pathfinders and devifish are part of the same unit. they must go together as per the rules.  

Chris has it right, this is absolutely untrue. They are part of the same FOC slot, not the same unit. Were they both part of the same unit, the devilfish would never be able to move more than 6", etc.

They are not different units. The rule in Tau Codex says when defines the pathfinders team as a unit formed by 4-8 pathfinders and a Devilsfish, not as 4-8 pathfinders to whom you must purchase a Devilfish.

Scout rule says, also clearly, that takes priority even in those scenarios where the unit could not normally be deployed.

Per rules as written both deploy on board even in escalation and can make a scout move.

Very well, Basileus.

But make sure you are taking all of the negative effects of the two parts being in the same unit, and not just the benefits. Remember that all models in the unit must maintain coherency and move at the speed of the slowest model. The devilfish will never be able to gain the "skimmers moving fast" benefit unless the rest of the unit is dead. All models can be hit by the fire from one enemy unit. Mixed armour. Majority toughness.

Are you sure you want to go down that road?

 

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot, no splitting fire...

I think there's some weight to giving the Devilfish scout as well. I know you guys hate this, but if you look at the other entries in the codex you can start picking up on some similar problems.
First up, for the Pathfinder Team entry.
"Team: Consists of 4-8 Pathfinders and a Devilfish"
"Scouts: Pathfinders are scouts... yadda yadda"

Lets jump over to Vespid
"Team: The units consists of a Strain Leader and 3-10 Stingwings"
"Fleet of Wing: The Stingwings are suprisingly agile for their size, fluff fluff. They are Fleet, ..."

In the case of other mixed-type teams, such as the Sniper Team, extensive measures are made to show what each seperate model in the team is equipped with. Each drone is equipped with a Rail rifle, the spotter is equipped with a pulse pistol. Etc...

My premise then is that Special rules regarding the Unit name: "Vespid Stingwings, Pathfinders" refer to every model included in the "Team: ..." entry.
This leads to the conclusion that the Devilfish is indeed equipped with Scout, and a Strain leader is Fleet as well.

Thoughts?

Well, RAW versus common sense... oh dear! This is surely an occasion where the clear "intent" (kof kof) of the rules clashes with the RAW.

Common sense says that all Vespids should have Fleet because they are all the same species and carry the same equipment except for the leader who has a Communication Helm. in other words, it's only the designation of them into Stingwing and Strain leader that makes a difference, unless you suppose that the Helm makes him slow down.

You are not allowed to take a Stingwing team without a Strain leader. Therefore, the whole team loses Fleet if the leader doesn't have it.

By following RAW you ruin the point of Stingwings, and no-one would use them.

For what it's worth, I would ignore the RAW in this case. However the situation is different to the Pathfinder D'fish so I would not say it set any precedent.

The situations are quite similar as far as I can tell. The gist is that you are assuming that the term Pathfinders applies only to the Shas'la models, where I think you can safely say that Pathfinders as a term refers to both the Shas'la and the Devilfish. There is evidence that the term Pathfinders refers only to the Shas'la: such as the wargear they may take (unless you think you can give a Devilfish grenades?).

I am using the Stingwings entry to present counter evidence that the term Pathfinders refers to the entire team, as both entries are completely workable if you understand the meaning of the term Stingwings and Pathfinders to be the contents of the Team entry.

And yes, this is a method of the argument where I'm holding common sense hostage for a rule interpretation that I prefer. 

The unit in the codex is called a pathfinder team.

a team is defined in the tau codex as : "this shows the number of models in the unit, or the number of models you may take for one choice from the force organisation chart"

The devilfish is a model that is part of the same force organisation chart so it is part of the team but not of the same unit.

When you read the scout section of the pathfinder team entry it only say pathfinder but it does not answer at all what happen when the pathfinder are deployed inside the devilfish.

The 3rd edition FAQ was giving the move to the devilfish and nothing has really changed since that time except that the pathfinder now have the choice to deploy or not in escalation. Without the FAQ it is difficult to give the move to the devilfish but if you don't give the move it create problem about what happen when the pathfinder are deployed inside the devilfish.

But make sure you are taking all of the negative effects of the two parts being in the same unit, and not just the benefits. Remember that all models in the unit must maintain coherency and move at the speed of the slowest model. The devilfish will never be able to gain the "skimmers moving fast" benefit unless the rest of the unit is dead. All models can be hit by the fire from one enemy unit. Mixed armour. Majority toughness.

Are you sure you want to go down that road?

except you are forgetting the other rules

1.the razorback is a transport OPTION for a tac squad, not a rquirement as it is with pathfinders. nor does a tac squad have a scout option.

2.as per the vehicle/transport rules the fish is a vehicle and as such can act independent of the unit it is part of. because it is the dedicated transport only that pathfinder team may ride in it and they have the choice to deploy  inside it or not. none of the negative effects you cite apply as per the rules.

But Mughi, Basileus just stated that the unit consisted of both the devilfish and the pathfinders. If so, they must maintain coherency and move at the speed of the slowest model.

Of course, that's nonsense, but that's what he said. How can you possibly defend him?

BigChris1313... forget that basileus stated that the devilfish and the pathfinders are a unit. They are a team as per the codex. Lets not hang on the specific obvious errors that people say in arguements and figure out if and why the pathfinders and required devilfish can scout or not. Now lets defend the rest of what basileus said.

USR says the unit deploys and does all their special mojo even if they could not legally otherwise be deployed... So I'm ready to say that pathfinders and the devilfish both scout.

Ahoj!
This is identical to the SM codex mess with TDA ICs and Terminator Command Squads.
ICs in TDA - can Deep Strike if mission allows
Terminator Command Squad - can always Deep Strike

Yet you can't buy a Terminator Command Squad without an IC in TDA. So Rule As Played is that the Terminator Command Squad always Deep Strikes, with its beloved Leader included ...

Here we have a Pathfinder Team which has the Scout rule. And you cannot take a PathfinderTeam WITHOUT the Devilfish. So the rule should extend to the transport as well.

Borys

Ugg.

People, no one has even come close to making any logical argument that the devilfish has scout. Yes that creates a sticky situation, but too bad. It's a sticky situation.

One thing is for certain. If you scout your devilfish, you're at best being unethical, since you certainly aren't sure it's legal. I would go so far as to say you're cheating, but I'm too lazy right now to debate it.

And yes, I own a devilfish and pathfinders.

Posted By mughi3 on 04/11/2006 7:49 PM

2.as per the vehicle/transport rules the fish is a vehicle and as such can act independent of the unit it is part of. because it is the dedicated transport only that pathfinder team may ride in it and they have the choice to deploy  inside it or not. none of the negative effects you cite apply as per the rules.

No. A transport can not "act independent of the unit it is a part of", as it is not a part of the unit that it is purchased with. It is a completely seperate unit which just so happens to be purchased along side a different unit by using the same FOC slot, and that is why it acts independently. Yes, a transport is associated with a specific unit, but (so far) it is never a part of the unit that it is associated with.

There is no rule on how vehicles should act when part of a non-vehicle unit. Since we lack any rule on how they should act, we must treat them just like any other part of the unit.

So, if you want to treat the D-Fish as part of the unit, you may grant it any benefits that the unit has, but you must also accept the bad with the good and accept all of the negative effects as well.

borys said:
Here we have a Pathfinder Team which has the Scout rule. And you cannot take a PathfinderTeam WITHOUT the Devilfish. So the rule should extend to the transport as well.

This, in a nutshell, is the most common mistake made about the Pathfinders/Devilfish/Scout question. It's a simple matter of misreading the RAW.

The Pathfinder Team does not have the Scout rule and the Codex says nothing of the kind. It clearly states that the Pathfinders get Scout. It does not state that their Devilfish does. End of story.

All the arguments about whether or not the Devilfish is part of the unit or not are irrelevant.

So, to answer spmusubi's original question, in Escalation missions the unit cannot deploy 'on-table'. A unit cannot be divided and deployed at separate times. Each FOC choice must be deployed at the same time. Thus because the Devilfish must start 'off-table' as per the Escalation rules, so must the Pathfinders.

Don't forget, Vespid units cannot fleet because the strain leader doesn't.

Are there any other units which comprise infantry and vehicles?

ridiculous.

the only way to resolve the puke-mess of this is to consider Scout as applying to the whole Pathfinder FOC selection, which is a bit of a stretch perhaps but doesn't break anything.

if you do it otherwise, its immediately broken as how do you then deploy.
also it then as a bonus breaks vespid as mentioned, they then can't fleet which is clearly not what it was supposed to mean.

How does GW screwing the pooch with the Pathfinders/Devilfish also screw Vesepids, exactly?

(Seriously. I don't own the codex.)

Because the wording is terrible.

Pathfinder team:
"Team: Consists of 4-8 Pathfinders and a Devilfish"
"Scouts: Pathfinders are scouts... etc."

Vespid Stingwings:
"Strain: The units consists of a Strain Leader and 3-10 Stingwings"
"Fleet of Wing: The Stingwings are suprisingly agile for their size, ... They are Fleet, ..."

If you make the decision that special rules for the Pathfinder team don't apply to the Devilfish, it's hard to then justify position that special rules for the Stingwings *do* apply to the Strain Leader.

 

Chris,

Moz posted earlier:
Lets jump over to Vespid
"Team: The units consists of a Strain Leader and 3-10 Stingwings"
"Fleet of Wing: The Stingwings are suprisingly agile for their size, fluff fluff. They are Fleet, ..."

All they are saying is that:
If Devilfish don't get "Scouts" because only Devilfish are not "Pathfinders",
then Strain Leaders don't get "Fleet" because Strain Leaders are not "Stingwings".


This is heading off topic, but does the Strain Leader have a different statline printed in the codex?


If the entry reads like this,

Stingwing - BS3 WS3 .......
Strain Leader - BS3 WS3 .......
Number/Squad: Strain Leader and 3-9 Stingwings

then I would say that the Strain Leader is NOT a "Stingwing" per the RAW and would technically not receive Fleet (although I wouldn't play it that way).


However, if the entry reads like a Space Marine entry,

Stingwing - BS3 WS3 ........
Number/Squad: Strain Leader and 3-9 Stingwings

then I would say that the Strain Leader IS a Stingwing as there is only one statline, labeled "Stingwing", which is used for both model types, and it would therefore receive the benefits of Fleet.