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Too bad the police brow beat him, told him he was going to get way more time than a few months(they lied), then pressured him in to doing something he should have never been doing. Then he paid the ultimate price for their dumb approach to the "War on Drugs". The kid was not a drug kingpin, he should not be treated as such.
and I repeat if he did not break the law and sell drugs would he have been in this situation? as I always say you are responsible for your actions, he broke the law so his actions placed him in the position, he has himself and only himself to blame for selling those drugs.
So you are saying that since he broke the law, it was perfectly acceptable for the police to lie to him and manipulate him in to doing something that cost him his life?
Cops are allowed to lie to you in order to get you to confess or turn informant. It can look to be pretty shady and reprehensible but it's legal.
Another question is whether (and why) the police knowingly lied to the parents when his body was found. Backpack full of rocks, in a river with a bullet hole in his head? That does not sound like suicide to me. People who commit suicide usually aren't too bothered with trying to make sure that their body isn't found.
Because it absolutely makes them look bad and shady? Why else would they cover up his murder?
Asterios wrote: well lets see in California most drug charges are considered minor charges and you will not see the inside of prison, but then again now a days it is getting pretty hard to be sent to prison for any reason, which is not a good thing
as to the title kept thinking innocent kids or families killed, not a drug dealer who got caught and turned informant, poor choice for describing the casualties on the war on drugs.
Is it? A 20 year old who sold some pot on campus, for which he would have faced a minor fine, instead got cooerced into being an informant and got murdered.
But sure, he's a hardened felon with multiple records of violent crimes and got what he had coming (sarcasm).
where did I say he got what he had coming? if you cannot quote me without putting imaginary words into my mouth then just don't bother. you are a real piece of work, someone says something you don't like or hell If I say something you don't like you just put words into my mouth and act like i said them.
So, this isn't saying he had it coming?
as to the title kept thinking innocent kids or families killed, not a drug dealer who got caught and turned informant, poor choice for describing the casualties on the war on drugs.
Either way, it ain't far from the truth that you don't care about a kid getting blown away.
was he an innocent victim? no he was in that position because of something he did, he didn't have to take the deal, he could have done his time, which would have been months, but no he broke the law, got busted and tried a deal, if he never broke the law he wouldn't have been in that situation.
I'm out. You're either A) clearly a troll or B) too caught in your hatred to see that there's more to this than just black and white.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/07 19:21:37
Too bad the police brow beat him, told him he was going to get way more time than a few months(they lied), then pressured him in to doing something he should have never been doing. Then he paid the ultimate price for their dumb approach to the "War on Drugs". The kid was not a drug kingpin, he should not be treated as such.
and I repeat if he did not break the law and sell drugs would he have been in this situation? as I always say you are responsible for your actions, he broke the law so his actions placed him in the position, he has himself and only himself to blame for selling those drugs.
So you are saying that since he broke the law, it was perfectly acceptable for the police to lie to him and manipulate him in to doing something that cost him his life?
Cops are allowed to lie to you in order to get you to confess or turn informant. It can look to be pretty shady and reprehensible but it's legal.
Another question is whether (and why) the police knowingly lied to the parents when his body was found. Backpack full of rocks, in a river with a bullet hole in his head? That does not sound like suicide to me. People who commit suicide usually aren't too bothered with trying to make sure that their body isn't found.
while more the exception then the rule, some people have done such things like go out into the wilderness to commit suicide and so forth. not saying this was a suicide, but it has happened.
Kid gets in trouble, he gets told he can get out of it and not get kicked from school/have his parents know about what he has done. Seems like a pretty good choice if you do not know they are telling you lies.
You can see how this is pretty awful manipulation, right?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/07 19:29:33
Too bad the police brow beat him, told him he was going to get way more time than a few months(they lied), then pressured him in to doing something he should have never been doing. Then he paid the ultimate price for their dumb approach to the "War on Drugs". The kid was not a drug kingpin, he should not be treated as such.
and I repeat if he did not break the law and sell drugs would he have been in this situation? as I always say you are responsible for your actions, he broke the law so his actions placed him in the position, he has himself and only himself to blame for selling those drugs.
So you are saying that since he broke the law, it was perfectly acceptable for the police to lie to him and manipulate him in to doing something that cost him his life?
Cops are allowed to lie to you in order to get you to confess or turn informant. It can look to be pretty shady and reprehensible but it's legal.
Another question is whether (and why) the police knowingly lied to the parents when his body was found. Backpack full of rocks, in a river with a bullet hole in his head? That does not sound like suicide to me. People who commit suicide usually aren't too bothered with trying to make sure that their body isn't found.
while more the exception then the rule, some people have done such things like go out into the wilderness to commit suicide and so forth. not saying this was a suicide, but it has happened.
Cops are allowed to lie to you in order to get you to confess or turn informant. It can look to be pretty shady and reprehensible but it's legal.
Which is a problem. It may be legal, but I do not think it should be.
thats what lawyers are for.
it's also a huge reason why ordinary law abiding citizens have good reason to fear, distrust, and avoid cooperation or even friendly interaction with the police.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Too bad the police brow beat him, told him he was going to get way more time than a few months(they lied), then pressured him in to doing something he should have never been doing. Then he paid the ultimate price for their dumb approach to the "War on Drugs". The kid was not a drug kingpin, he should not be treated as such.
and I repeat if he did not break the law and sell drugs would he have been in this situation? as I always say you are responsible for your actions, he broke the law so his actions placed him in the position, he has himself and only himself to blame for selling those drugs.
So you are saying that since he broke the law, it was perfectly acceptable for the police to lie to him and manipulate him in to doing something that cost him his life?
Cops are allowed to lie to you in order to get you to confess or turn informant. It can look to be pretty shady and reprehensible but it's legal.
Another question is whether (and why) the police knowingly lied to the parents when his body was found. Backpack full of rocks, in a river with a bullet hole in his head? That does not sound like suicide to me. People who commit suicide usually aren't too bothered with trying to make sure that their body isn't found.
while more the exception then the rule, some people have done such things like go out into the wilderness to commit suicide and so forth. not saying this was a suicide, but it has happened.
Cops are allowed to lie to you in order to get you to confess or turn informant. It can look to be pretty shady and reprehensible but it's legal.
Which is a problem. It may be legal, but I do not think it should be.
thats what lawyers are for.
it's also a huge reason why ordinary law abiding citizens have good reason to fear, distrust, and avoid cooperation or even friendly interaction with the police.
rule number one if ever arrested, do not say a thing without talking to a lawyer first.
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Wait I thought rule #1 was have a Benjamin clipped to your ID when you give it to them...
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
The better phrase is Rule #1: Believe Nothing. Trust No One.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
The better phrase is Rule #1: Believe Nothing. Trust No One.
I thought it went, "The Truth is Out There, Trust No One, I want to Believe"?
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
While Mulder and Scully are of course correct. Mine was taught me by my first professor in lawschool-an over exuberant younger Bernie Sanders type. Yes if you imagine Bernie shouting that its about right.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/07 21:03:00
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
The other problem being the good cops standing by and doing nothing about the bad cops much of the time, and with "Internal Affairs" equivalents being treated as the enemy in almost every arena and DA's often choosing simply not to prosecute (or intentionally bungle prosecutions) in "bad apple" cases with regularity.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Vaktathi wrote: The other problem being the good cops standing by and doing nothing about the bad cops much of the time, and with "Internal Affairs" equivalents being treated as the enemy in almost every arena and DA's often choosing simply not to prosecute (or intentionally bungle prosecutions) in "bad apple" cases with regularity.
This. Even if you're a good cop, the whole brotherhood mentality says "Never snitch on a fellow cop, even if he's dirty"
Asterios wrote: problem is a lot of good cops who are credits to the uniform and their society are given a bad rap because of a few.
This is just a regurgitation of the same bs over and over. If you are a "good cop" and you let a "bad cop" get away with stuff, you are not a "good cop".
Asterios wrote: problem is a lot of good cops who are credits to the uniform and their society are given a bad rap because of a few.
And they nearly never speak up against the "bad apples" (be it our of solidarity, peer pressure, fear, …). It just looks like the crooks rule and the good cops (even if they outnumber the bad ones) stand by and (can) do nothing to change things for the better. I just found this link (hope it works, if it doesn't the relevant part starts at 9:10), with a rant about this: https://youtu.be/lBoK_73NMJs?t=550
Without quoting from a couple pages back, I completely disagree with the notion that we give people convicted of crimes "second, third, and fourth" chances.
When you sit back and look at it, how many businesses will legitimately hire someone who has been convicted of major crimes, or even "minor" felonies? As they say, "Baskin Robins always finds out."
LordofHats wrote: I'm aware of this. I'm also aware of the argument that these strategies didn't really reduce crime. They simply shifted where it was happening which worked out to make statistics look better, but didn't actually reduce crime as much as was thought. When the same police commissioner went to Chicago, he tried the same strategies and they didn't have the same results as they did in NYC.
Which is kind of my point. I don't think we understand crime nearly as well as we like to think we do, especially not with regard to law enforcement.
I think it's quite the opposite. We understand crime extremely well. It's just that much of what we've learned directly contradicts 'common sense' and things that feel good, and so we ignore them.
It's very similar to economics in that sense.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
A big problem (here, at least), is that junior cops who report on seniors are often blown off. It's a case of 'there's a good boy, now go play with a ball'.
I've also noticed a lot of cops think we're too soft on crime. And people don't like them, for whatever reason. But cops have an absolutely bullgak job, that they choose to do, for whatever reason.
Seriously. My stepfather came home bloody, torn clothes, at ungodly hours all the time, all because some donkeycave decided the law didn't apply to him. They're some really sour grapes to swallow. And then there are big problems with felons beating cops getting away with no, or light sentences.
These people deal with crap everyday, under huge negative public feeling, and yet they're expected to work miracles. Its absolute crap. Hats off to the folk in blue.
My $0.02, which since 1992 has rounded to nothing. Take with salt.
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Easy E wrote: Broken Windows is a 1Up Mushroom excuse to profile, rack-up ticket revenue, and violate the Constitution's intent whenever possible.
No, it isn't. It has been used in that way, but that doesn't mean that is what it is.
I think a lot of people are talking about the NY 'stop and question' policy, which is used Broken Windows as a justification but is not what the theory is about.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Monkey Tamer wrote: People always like to point to Europe as the model on how to do things here in the States. Well I'm going to point to India. Over there addicts don't get handled with kiddie gloves. They get ex-communicated and disowned. The shame the addict brings upon the family is not tolerated. I've been to plenty of Indian weddings with open bar. Not once has anyone gotten stupid, because they fear their own. At every white people wedding I've been to someone always makes a scene. Maybe hugging it out isn't the answer.
I love India, great place and great people. But anyone who'd want to go down their ultra-conservative pattern of social shaming doesn't understand how toxic that can to people and to families.
Also, comparing getting drunk at a wedding with meth use is kind of bananas.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/08 02:19:16
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
IIRC Guiliana said the "Broken Window" policy went into effect during a protest. The "Stop and Frisk" is/was (Struck down by SCOTUS right?) something entirely different. Almost a military operation like a roving patrol or check point people walk by
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Monkey Tamer wrote: It's a sign of good fortune if cross dressers show up at your wedding there.
They're treated much the way that we used to treat circus freaks. It really isn't something to be followed.
They've got to be whacking off like mad men because they don't get married until they're done with school, which means late 20s for most of them.
Of course they do it, everyone everywhere masturbates. But it remains a taboo subject in India. Meanwhile if you look at Indian rape culture... I don't think it's hard to see how much sex needs to be more healthily addressed in India.
Most are Hindu, so they don't go to church. Have we been to the same India?
Probably not, because I went to one with a lot of temples.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Monkey Tamer wrote: People always like to point to Europe as the model on how to do things here in the States. Well I'm going to point to India. Over there addicts don't get handled with kiddie gloves. They get ex-communicated and disowned. The shame the addict brings upon the family is not tolerated. I've been to plenty of Indian weddings with open bar. Not once has anyone gotten stupid, because they fear their own. At every white people wedding I've been to someone always makes a scene. Maybe hugging it out isn't the answer.
I love India, great place and great people. But anyone who'd want to go down their ultra-conservative pattern of social shaming doesn't understand how toxic that can to people and to families.
Also, comparing getting drunk at a wedding with meth use is kind of bananas.
Well, we just had a thread saying justice was better in the Wild West days, so why not one saying that the social shaming family dynamic of India - directly responsible for rampant honor killings - is something we should emulate? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/08 02:33:34
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Monkey Tamer wrote: How many felony sentencing hearings have you done? I read all these "studies" and "research articles" that tell me how it is, but I see the exact opposite being the guy in the trenches. Perhaps you shouldn't believe everything you read, and should fail ashamed for being so easily swayed and feel bad for posting about something you have no first hand experience with.
I drove a car once and no-one died therefore it is perfectly safe, and people should feel ashamed for listening to all those pesky road toll stats.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ouze wrote: Well, we just had a thread saying justice was better in the Wild West days, so why not one saying that the social shaming family dynamic of India - directly responsible for rampant honor killings - is something we should emulate? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I missed that one about justice being better in the Wild West. That would have been fun.
I guess it's just the dakka dynamic. Sooner or later you will come across a political view that you didn't even think was possible.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/08 02:49:37
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Monkey Tamer wrote: How many felony sentencing hearings have you done? I read all these "studies" and "research articles" that tell me how it is, but I see the exact opposite being the guy in the trenches. Perhaps you shouldn't believe everything you read, and should fail ashamed for being so easily swayed and feel bad for posting about something you have no first hand experience with.
I drove a car once and no-one died therefore it is perfectly safe, and people should feel ashamed for listening to all those pesky road toll stats.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ouze wrote: Well, we just had a thread saying justice was better in the Wild West days, so why not one saying that the social shaming family dynamic of India - directly responsible for rampant honor killings - is something we should emulate? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I missed that one about justice being better in the Wild West. That would have been fun.
I guess it's just the dakka dynamic. Sooner or later you will come across a political view that you didn't even think was possible.
I should totally believe any link to an article done by a "news source" owned by Jeff Bezos and not question anything about it. Got it.
Monkey Tamer wrote: I should totally believe any link to an article done by a "news source" owned by Jeff Bezos and not question anything about it. Got it.
You only have to believe maths to know the rates of incarceration in the US are massively greater than any other developed country, and as such your claim that the US 'indulges' in crime is pretty clearly wrong.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
The more I think about it... the more I believe that we won't see any significant justice reforms.
There's too many conflict of interest in various forms...
How to address this? meh... I really don't know short of open civil revolt.
If enough folks who goes on jury duty, and the case is a non-violent offense, simply practice 'Jury Nullification'. Even if the defendant is guilty as feth.
whembly wrote: The more I think about it... the more I believe that we won't see any significant justice reforms.
There's too many conflict of interest in various forms...
I honestly believe that, to paraphrase, the moral arc of American society is long, but it invariably bends towards justice. I think things will slowly get better, because they always do. Just as the crack vs powder sentencing disparity has gone out of vogue, so eventually will for-profit prisons, and so on and so forth.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
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