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 kastelen wrote:
everyone here is discussing the new flyer rules and I'm just happy that the infiltrators got un-nerfed

As far as I can tell, they are still 2/3 attacks for infiltrator/princeps?

Or are you referring to a different infiltrators?

crimsondave wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
For a Conscript Nerf I rather see Comissars instead say

During morale, any number of times per unit, you may slain a model to reduce the morale test by d6

That would have to only apply to Conscripts for that to work. It would make Commissars pretty useless with everybody else. I think it makes perfect sense for them not to be able to take orders.

I hope they do something to conscripts soon. I've been slowly getting my new force together for over a year with the plan to use a fair number of conscripts. They weren't good for much in 7th, but now...

I don't want to be "that guy."

I mean... how?

The effect I said is always worth using if you have a high chance of losing multiple dudes.

If your Veterans took 6 casualties this turn on their Ld8, then you have 50% chance of losing 2 more guys or greater. With an expected loss of 1.66 guys.
If decide to accept you're losing at least 1, to roll a counter d6 then even if you roll a 1 on the Commissar, your expected losses still went down to 1.0 guys.

The actual expected effect reduction is 3.5 guys.

Oh, and this is with using a Commissar Ld effect... without that at all... if your Veterans took 6 causalities on their Ld7, then you have a 83% chance of losing 1 more guy, and you will expect to lose 2.5 guys.

So yea... It wouldn't make the Commissar useless with everybody else. Commissar will still be insanely useful for negating morale.

It will be a terrible nerf.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's almost like flyers were intended to be taken in ones or twos, not twelves.

screw Harakoni and Elysians AMMIRIGHT GUYS ?!!!!???

 General Orange wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's almost like flyers were intended to be taken in ones or twos, not twelves.

screw Harakoni and Elysians AMMIRIGHT GUYS ?!!!!???

I'm hoping FW will put out an FaQ making Elysian Valkyries at the very least have an ability that lets them count as being a model on the board for Sudden Death.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 General Orange wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's almost like flyers were intended to be taken in ones or twos, not twelves.

screw Harakoni and Elysians AMMIRIGHT GUYS ?!!!!???

I'm hoping FW will put out an FaQ making Elysian Valkyries at the very least have an ability that lets them count as being a model on the board for Sudden Death.

In fluff terms Elysians are often slaughtered when they are on their own as they lack the staying power to hold ground unless reinforced and air cover can't do it on its own - bit like paratroops in WWII.

so in the fluff they lose if they dont have anything on the ground too?

All the ott reactions to conscripts here... What they need is to only allow 1 conscript squad per 2 squads of guardsmen. Problem solved. If they couldnt take orders they'd need probably point drop. And making them 2ppm would open up yet another can of worms.

 Talamare wrote:

crimsondave wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
For a Conscript Nerf I rather see Comissars instead say

During morale, any number of times per unit, you may slain a model to reduce the morale test by d6

That would have to only apply to Conscripts for that to work. It would make Commissars pretty useless with everybody else. I think it makes perfect sense for them not to be able to take orders.

I hope they do something to conscripts soon. I've been slowly getting my new force together for over a year with the plan to use a fair number of conscripts. They weren't good for much in 7th, but now...

I don't want to be "that guy."

I mean... how?

The effect I said is always worth using if you have a high chance of losing multiple dudes.

If your Veterans took 6 casualties this turn on their Ld8, then you have 50% chance of losing 2 more guys or greater. With an expected loss of 1.66 guys.
If decide to accept you're losing at least 1, to roll a counter d6 then even if you roll a 1 on the Commissar, your expected losses still went down to 1.0 guys.

The actual expected effect reduction is 3.5 guys.

Oh, and this is with using a Commissar Ld effect... without that at all... if your Veterans took 6 causalities on their Ld7, then you have a 83% chance of losing 1 more guy, and you will expect to lose 2.5 guys.

So yea... It wouldn't make the Commissar useless with everybody else. Commissar will still be insanely useful for negating morale.

So to fix the "Conscript problem" that I'm just accepting exists cause dakka says so, you want to hurt all guard infantry? It would be a horrible nerf that would make commissars not worth their points. I still think no orders for conscripts works better. Isn't it FRSR that is freaking people out?

"What they need is to only allow 1 conscript squad per 2 squads of guardsmen. Problem solved."

^This is what I really think the fix is, but no one but you and I seem to agree.

It's the fact that you can pour tons and tons of ammo into them and still have a huge blob still remaining there. Tyranids this isn't so bad because Synapse characters tend to be able to be sniped because of 10 wounds. Commissars not so much.

Also i play nidz and they suck haha Nothing in our index is near to IG haha However codex arent out yet

I really like the fix to understrength units.

Should quiet the 'shaming' crowd

Now is that lone exarch worth that loss of cp?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's almost like flyers were intended to be taken in ones or twos, not twelves.

you know right! lol

Hell yea my friend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Only sad thing about this FaQ is still no palanquin for my herold.

Kind of interesting that they did something about razorwing, but not about conscripts and horrors yet.
This edition is getting better and better, I thought we'd have to wait until decembre before they do sth. about the balance.

Well I wonder if the codexes will be out fairly soon for those armies and the fix is already in. So no need to make a hasty faq. The Dark Eldar may be on a back burner for 2018 and needed a fast change.

Lets just have a rule just for guard that on a role of 6 every phase of the game a random guardsmen dies, just dies, opponent chooses of course.

crimsondave wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

crimsondave wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
For a Conscript Nerf I rather see Comissars instead say

During morale, any number of times per unit, you may slain a model to reduce the morale test by d6

That would have to only apply to Conscripts for that to work. It would make Commissars pretty useless with everybody else. I think it makes perfect sense for them not to be able to take orders.

I hope they do something to conscripts soon. I've been slowly getting my new force together for over a year with the plan to use a fair number of conscripts. They weren't good for much in 7th, but now...

I don't want to be "that guy."

I mean... how?

The effect I said is always worth using if you have a high chance of losing multiple dudes.

If your Veterans took 6 casualties this turn on their Ld8, then you have 50% chance of losing 2 more guys or greater. With an expected loss of 1.66 guys.
If decide to accept you're losing at least 1, to roll a counter d6 then even if you roll a 1 on the Commissar, your expected losses still went down to 1.0 guys.

The actual expected effect reduction is 3.5 guys.

Oh, and this is with using a Commissar Ld effect... without that at all... if your Veterans took 6 causalities on their Ld7, then you have a 83% chance of losing 1 more guy, and you will expect to lose 2.5 guys.

So yea... It wouldn't make the Commissar useless with everybody else. Commissar will still be insanely useful for negating morale.

So to fix the "Conscript problem" that I'm just accepting exists cause dakka says so, you want to hurt all guard infantry? It would be a horrible nerf that would make commissars not worth their points. I still think no orders for conscripts works better. Isn't it FRSR that is freaking people out?

"What they need is to only allow 1 conscript squad per 2 squads of guardsmen. Problem solved."

^This is what I really think the fix is, but no one but you and I seem to agree.

You keep saying that his solution would be a horrible nerf? How?because occasionally you might lose more than one model? Occasionally you would lose no models at all. Actually given LD 8 it is far more common you would lose nothing in any non-conscript squad.

his fix effectively makes units in the commisar bubble LD 9 (Commisars 8 + minimum 1 on the d6 ignored casualties) No non-conscript unit can have more than 10 models.

Based on this the solution would look like this for every squad with the roll of a 6 on the morale dice
1-3 casualties = no losses ever
4 casualites = no losses on a 2+, max 1 loss (on a 5 or lower on the morale dice 0 losses)
5 casulties = no losses on a 3+, 1 loss on a 2, 2 losses on a 1. This is better than the current rule 66% of the time, worse 16% of the time. (on a 5 or less on the morale dice this is always better)
6 casulties = no losses on a 4+, 1 loss on a 3, 2 losses on a 2, 3, on a 1., this is better than current rule 50% of the time, worse 33% of the time (on a 4 or less on morale this is always better)
7 casulties = no losses on a 5+, 1 on a 4+ this is better 33% of the time and worse 50% of the time.(on a 3 or less on morale this is always better)
8 casualties = no losses on a 6+, 1 on a 5+ this is better 16%. (on a 2 or less on morale this is always better)
9 casualties = both the same you will lose a single model.

So his change to the commisar actually makes it better for every non-conscript squad in a majority of situations, the only time it doesn't is when you lose 8 models.They are fairly equal at 7. Especially with CP re-rolls it is highly likely you will rarely lose models in this scenario. Where it really starts to lose ground for the commissar is once all other squads will be dead and conscripts are still taking wounds. If I kill say 20 ouf 50 conscripts they suffer because at best they lose 7 models (20 + 1 -= 21 - 8 = 13 - 6 = 7)



Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact this would be a massive buff to the commissar for non- conscript units. Doing some math on this for 1-9 casualties on any 10 man (or less) unit.

The current commissar and D6 reduction are equal in cases of 1 or 2 casualties as neither lose either.

At 3 casualties the D6 is better as 16% of the time the current commissar loses a single model, while the D6 reduction loses 0.

At 4 casualties D6 is way better, as you only lose 1 model 2.7% of the time, where as you lose a single model 33% of the time currently

At 5 casualties D6 is still way better as you lose at least 1 model only 8.3% of the time, while currently you lose one model 50% of the time. You lose 2 models 2.8% of the time with the D6 reduction, not including any CP re-rolls

At 6 casualties D6 is still better as you only lose at least one model 17% of the time, vs 67% of the time for the current. Now you will lose 2 models 5.6% of the time and three 2.8% of the time (so 8.3% of the time you will lose multiple models assuming you don't CP re-roll)

At 7 casualties D6 is still better as you only lose at least 1 model 28% of the time Vs 83% of the time for current, you will lose multiple models 17% of the time (8.3 % two, 8.3% 3) without re-rolls, so this evens it out a bit, as you have a chance of losing the rest of the squad, but it is quite unlikely.

At 8 Casualties D6 is still better as you only lose at least 1 model 42% of the time, vs 100% of the time for current. Now 28% of the time you will lose both remaining models. So given the ~1/4 chance of the squad dying this might be considered an edge to the current commissar.

At 9 casualties the D6 is infinitely better as there is still a 42% chance the squad will survive, whereas currently it auto dies.

So given CP re-rolls, I would say the advantage for smaller squads is always with the D6 reduction. For conscripts however it end up being worse because you can cause a bunch of casualties, though they can still use 2 CP to auto pass morale if desired.

Why not just make the Commissar rule work like this:


For every model a Commissar executes roll a D6 and reduce the amount of models lost to morale by the amount rolled.


So an example of this would be:

Player-A has a fifty man unit of conscripts and loses thirteen models in a turn. Player-A then rolls a five on his morale roll, meaning the conscripts should lose ten additional models to morale. Player-A decides to use the Commissars rule to execute two models and rolls 2d6, rolling a combined total of seven. Player-A removes the two models from the unit due to the Commissars rule, and then removes three more models for morale (10-7=3).

The wounds are effectively halved by the Commissar this way, but wouldn't make a unit unbreakable unto death.

Anyway just my two cents.

Take it for what it's worth.

Best of luck to all!

what was the nerf to Razorbacks that the OP indicated? didn't see it in the FAQ...

 benlac wrote:
what was the nerf to Razorbacks that the OP indicated? didn't see it in the FAQ...

He said Razorflock, as in razorwing flock, not Razorback

Breng77 wrote:

 benlac wrote:
what was the nerf to Razorbacks that the OP indicated? didn't see it in the FAQ...

He said Razorflock, as in razorwing flock, not Razorback

They doubled their pt costs.
I saw an ETC list with 11*12 Razorflocks (with old pt costs).

 wuestenfux wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 benlac wrote:
what was the nerf to Razorbacks that the OP indicated? didn't see it in the FAQ...

He said Razorflock, as in razorwing flock, not Razorback

They doubled their pt costs.
I saw an ETC list with 11*12 Razorflocks (with old pt costs).

Imagine that guys rage if he just bought them.

hobojebus wrote:


Imagine that guys rage if he just bought them.

Good, anyone who brought 132 freshly bought razorwing flocks to a game deserves a slap to the face.

hobojebus wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 benlac wrote:
what was the nerf to Razorbacks that the OP indicated? didn't see it in the FAQ...

He said Razorflock, as in razorwing flock, not Razorback

They doubled their pt costs.
I saw an ETC list with 11*12 Razorflocks (with old pt costs).

Imagine that guys rage if he just bought them.

Honestly? no sympathy for those people. They want to try and break the game by taking advantage of loose army building restrictions, they have to deal with the consequences of it being invalidated for playing against the spirit of the game.

 MinscS2 wrote:

hobojebus wrote:


Imagine that guys rage if he just bought them.

Good, anyone who brought 132 freshly bought razorwing flocks to a game deserves a slap to the face.

People buy the actual Razorwing models?
at £10 EACH?!?

Jbz` wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

hobojebus wrote:


Imagine that guys rage if he just bought them.

Good, anyone who brought 132 freshly bought razorwing flocks to a game deserves a slap to the face.

People buy the actual Razorwing models?
at £10 EACH?!?

Yeah a i saw a picture of an entire freshly bought razorflock tourney army. I truely enjoy seeing fruitcake like that waste his money on that, at the end it all supports GW. I hope they keep lureing waac players into exteme builds and then "invalidate" for waac shortly after.

Have we come to the conclusion that troops in fliers do not count as having boots on ground?

So if I kill all your guys on the ground and you have one model in a flier do you lose still or do I have to kill that one model zipping around in the sky?

usmcmidn wrote:
Have we come to the conclusion that troops in fliers do not count as having boots on ground?

So if I kill all your guys on the ground and you have one model in a flier do you lose still or do I have to kill that one model zipping around in the sky?

the guy in the flyer is not considered on the board... so you lose


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jbz` wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

hobojebus wrote:


Imagine that guys rage if he just bought them.

Good, anyone who brought 132 freshly bought razorwing flocks to a game deserves a slap to the face.

People buy the actual Razorwing models?
at £10 EACH?!?

Zombicide birdies

The issue now with stormravens is they are dangerous flyers to use. Example:


I load 4 squads of PAGK and 2 dreadnoughts into 2 stormravens on turn 1. I also am teleporting in 1 dreadknight.

I move the stormravens forward 20 inches. I am now 4 inches off the front of my opponents front line. My dreadknight teleports in.

Opponents turn, He kills my dreadknight and surrounds my two stormravens bases. End of my turn. I will lose because I cannot disembark my troops from the stormraven to stay in the game. Because there is no place to put them on the table.

OgreOnAStick wrote:
Ragnar can take his doggies into transports now and has a point cost for them.

I keep looking, but can find where this is.

Youn wrote:
The issue now with stormravens is they are dangerous flyers to use. Example:


I load 4 squads of PAGK and 2 dreadnoughts into 2 stormravens on turn 1. I also am teleporting in 1 dreadknight.

I move the stormravens forward 20 inches. I am now 4 inches off the front of my opponents front line. My dreadknight teleports in.

Opponents turn, He kills my dreadknight and surrounds my two stormravens bases. End of my turn. I will lose because I cannot disembark my troops from the stormraven to stay in the game. Because there is no place to put them on the table.

If he was able to completely surround two storm ravens your loss that game is on you. That's just bad positioning.

Like, really bad positioning.

Youn wrote:
The issue now with stormravens is they are dangerous flyers to use. Example:


I load 4 squads of PAGK and 2 dreadnoughts into 2 stormravens on turn 1. I also am teleporting in 1 dreadknight.

I move the stormravens forward 20 inches. I am now 4 inches off the front of my opponents front line. My dreadknight teleports in.

Opponents turn, He kills my dreadknight and surrounds my two stormravens bases. End of my turn. I will lose because I cannot disembark my troops from the stormraven to stay in the game. Because there is no place to put them on the table.

correct me if I'm wrong.. but wouldn't you have lost anyway ? Don't you check at the end of the game turn ?

 Anpu42 wrote:

OgreOnAStick wrote:
Ragnar can take his doggies into transports now and has a point cost for them.

I keep looking, but can find where this is.

In the Imperium 1 FAQ? He could always take them into transports (they were Infantry) but they used to have a null value for points, now they cost some.

Page 216 – Space Wolves Points Values
Change Ragnar Blackmane’s entry to read:
‘Ragnar Blackmane | 1 | 141
- Svangir and Ulfgir | 0-2 | 9’


Q: Can Svangir and Ulgir embark on a transport?
A: Yes. Treat these models as if they were Space Wolves
Infantry for all rules purposes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brutallica wrote:

Jbz` wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

hobojebus wrote:


Imagine that guys rage if he just bought them.

Good, anyone who brought 132 freshly bought razorwing flocks to a game deserves a slap to the face.

People buy the actual Razorwing models?
at £10 EACH?!?

Yeah a i saw a picture of an entire freshly bought razorflock tourney army. I truely enjoy seeing fruitcake like that waste his money on that, at the end it all supports GW. I hope they keep lureing waac players into exteme builds and then "invalidate" for waac shortly after.

If they weren't recasts or 3rd party then the guy is a bit of an idiot.