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Martel732 wrote:
Scouts are a terrible screening unit. They cost way too much

I mean, here's the thing: you don't NEED conscripts. They're a brick wall. They're overkill. They work great at what they do, because they are overkill. What you need, at least within the context of this specific thread, is a speed bump. They're fine for that. I use about 120 points worth of Infantry squad as my screen. They're not a brick wall, but they keep the gak off me that I need to not be on me.

 Galef wrote:
I think Martel's point (and correct me if wrong) is that Scouts will only work in the first turn before they die. Since you can choose what turn deepstrikers come it, you can hold them unit turn 2 and wipe out the Scouts on turn 1.
Even if that isn't his point, it is a concern I share no matter what unit you use. Only Conscripts, Cultist and Gaunts are cheap enough to spam enough units for multiple turn screening.

At the least it gives you an entire turn where a good portion of their force is not on the table (assuming they have a significant investement in deep striking units), which is a notable benefit. Also, if they invest firepower to eliminate scouts it means that your actual damage dealers receive less fire. Finally, if they remove the scouts you usually can move Razorbacks/bikes/other mobile units into position instead to get another turn of screening.

 adamsouza wrote:
Step 1.) Take 1-2 units of whatever the cheapest unit you have access to is. Bonus if it infiltrates.

Step 2.) Spread them out, at maximum unit coherencey across the border of your deployment zone

20 Models on 32mm bases can stretch across the table and screen for your entire army.

Works with SM Scouts, Eldar Guardians, Necron Warriors, Termagants, etc...

Thats all well and good, but...

For the price of 10 guardians, you could get 30 conscripts.

Same Toughness 3
Same save of 5+
Worse BS (but loads more shots, so it works out better)
Slightly weaker gun, but longer range, so again works out better.

So basically for the same cost, you get almost triple the return with conscripts than you do with guardians.

People here all know you can bubblewrap to protect from infiltrators, that's not the problem. The problem is that unless you play Imperium, you have to spend a large percentage of your limited points pool on units to protect yourself. Which leaves you with a lot less to spend on actual units that can do damage to your enemy. Meanwhile, Imperium players can spend a small amount to protect themselves, with units that can also deal damage, and so are getting a double return on an investment that is already giving them triple the return compared to other armies. It adds up incredibly quickly.

War Walkers get a pre game scout move

Rangers get a pregame deployment IIRC

Aeldari domt have conscripts but they have ways to push out the zone an infiltration or deep strike unit can use.

You do have to learn these things can happen and bring lists that combat them.

I've quickly made myself a bunch of 9 inch sticks from bamboo skewers so you can quickly calculate deepstrike prevention bubbles and work out where I can deepstrike my own stuff. Works very well.

Guard can now practically deepstrike tanks now!

Guard shouldn't be used as the basis for anything balanced though is the thing. yeah scouts aren't great but don't even mention guard. This game would actually be fairly well balanced if guard did not exist. FW stuff is still problematic here and there but by in large you'd have a playable game without guard.

 Silentz wrote:
War Walkers get a pre game scout move

Rangers get a pregame deployment IIRC

Aeldari domt have conscripts but they have ways to push out the zone an infiltration or deep strike unit can use.

You do have to learn these things can happen and bring lists that combat them.

I've quickly made myself a bunch of 9 inch sticks from bamboo skewers so you can quickly calculate deepstrike prevention bubbles and work out where I can deepstrike my own stuff. Works very well.

Guard can now practically deepstrike tanks now!

Yeh, rangers can deploy anywhere outside of 9" before the first round, same infiltration as the stratagem. They are -obscenely- expensive though, and are pretty much only good for their cover saves. Their shooting is terrible for their points. 100 points for 5 models.

War walkers need to be kept right at the back. Putting them on the front lines as the most expensive bubblewrap in the universe is a bad idea, as they will just get destroyed turn 1 and that's a quarter of your army's points gone.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I think Martel's point (and correct me if wrong) is that Scouts will only work in the first turn before they die. Since you can choose what turn deepstrikers come it, you can hold them unit turn 2 and wipe out the Scouts on turn 1.
Even if that isn't his point, it is a concern I share no matter what unit you use. Only Conscripts, Cultist and Gaunts are cheap enough to spam enough units for multiple turn screening.

Not everyone get's hoards.

Marines and Eldar are Elite by nature. They don't get to better than humans and outnumber them.

I dont Consider SM elite at all..... Off SM armies (BA, GK, SW, DW, DA are elite), when you can take 85 SM's with vehicles, 18 Heavy Weapons and 12 special weapons with still 2 HQ's, i dont think thats elite.

 Silentz wrote:
War Walkers get a pre game scout move

Rangers get a pregame deployment IIRC

Aeldari domt have conscripts but they have ways to push out the zone an infiltration or deep strike unit can use.

You do have to learn these things can happen and bring lists that combat them.

I've quickly made myself a bunch of 9 inch sticks from bamboo skewers so you can quickly calculate deepstrike prevention bubbles and work out where I can deepstrike my own stuff. Works very well.

Guard can now practically deepstrike tanks now!

Both Rangers and War Walkers deploy/activate simultaneously with Raven Guard type deployment. It's not clear that they can actually push infiltrators away, depending on how you handle the sequencing. Regardless, both are extremely expensive for this purpose -- it's not like a squad of Berzerkers are unhappy that they only got to eat a 100 point unit of Rangers before getting another 9" of movement towards the rest of the army. Like, you'd happily throw a unit of Berzerkers into a 30-man Conscript squad if you were guaranteed to kill them all and take no casualties, and that's basically what's going on here.

Really I think the only actually-good answer to something like this for Eldar is bringing flyers and then hiding everything else way back in your deployment zone.

The infiltrate stratagems of alpha legion and raven guard are completely gamebreaking. It is not just Bezerkers, agressors are pretty broken when infiltrating, and so is everything with flamers. But jump-troops are probably the most broken, as they can move and assault over a defensive screen and into the backfield.

But the real nightmare lies in future codices: What happens when Orcs get a Blood-axe infiltrate stratagem alpha legion style? 120 Boyz deploying 9 inches away, they can then move + shoot and then charge? All for 4 CP's?

And remember:

1) You can use the stratagem as many times as you are willing to spend CPs.

2) The infiltrating units can move + shoot + charge in their first turn. You can move 6", shoot flamers, and then charge the remaining 3" distance.

3) You roll to seize before the infiltrating units are deployed, so you know who will go first when deploying.

4) Bezerkers can consolidate three inches and then pile in three more inches. You need at least six+ inches of empty space between your screen and your backfield.

5) You can charge through a screening unit if it is spaced out into unit coherency (2" base-to-base). In order to screen against an assault the screening models needs to be spaced closer than 32 mm (against marines) or 25 mm (against most of everything else)

Ushtarador wrote:
A basic scout squad is 55 points. Taking 2 squads costs 110 points and is easily enough to screen the rest of the army from any first turn deepstrikers and charges. Hell, I even drew a diagram for Martel (seriously buddy, stop whining about stuff that's actually fine). Scouts are also a very useful unit in games where screens are not needed, able to tie up things with first turn charges or grab remote maelstrom objectives. Having screening units is absolutely necessary in this edition, and it really doesn't take a lot of effort to blunt first turn charges/deep strikes.

There is a problem here - warptime & icon of wrath give a reliable 20" threat range (6"+6"+8"), meaning that the infiltrating bezerkers could deploy at all three of the gaps in your defensive line, walk past the speedbumps and threaten all but the table edge itself

I imagine that Orks' might use Deep Strike as opposed to Infiltrate, given the Great Waagh Supplement.

Tyranids will definitely have it too.

Niiru wrote:

Thats all well and good, but....
For the price of 10 guardians, you could get 30 conscripts

Except you can't field conscripts in a Eldar force. Work with what you have.

Insularum wrote:

Ushtarador wrote:
A basic scout squad is 55 points. Taking 2 squads costs 110 points and is easily enough to screen the rest of the army from any first turn deepstrikers and charges. Hell, I even drew a diagram for Martel (seriously buddy, stop whining about stuff that's actually fine). Scouts are also a very useful unit in games where screens are not needed, able to tie up things with first turn charges or grab remote maelstrom objectives. Having screening units is absolutely necessary in this edition, and it really doesn't take a lot of effort to blunt first turn charges/deep strikes.

There is a problem here - warptime & icon of wrath give a reliable 20" threat range (6"+6"+8"), meaning that the infiltrating bezerkers could deploy at all three of the gaps in your defensive line, walk past the speedbumps and threaten all but the table edge itself

Warptime can only be used on 1 unit of zerkers though, which makes this a lot more tractable (also it will be hard to get into casting range for unit C). As a marine player you probably also have some characters in your backline that can countercharge to clean up the berzerkers, they aren't immune to morale after all. Also, if the chaos player doesn't go first his whole plan falls apart anyway, which makes this type of lists a lot less appealing in a tournament setting.

Just to be clear, these are definitely tournament-level tactics and discussions, where players should expect to face things like this. I wouldn't expect my opponent to bring such an army to a friendly game against a player that doesn't know how to handle this tactic.

Ushtarador wrote:

Insularum wrote:

Ushtarador wrote:
A basic scout squad is 55 points. Taking 2 squads costs 110 points and is easily enough to screen the rest of the army from any first turn deepstrikers and charges. Hell, I even drew a diagram for Martel (seriously buddy, stop whining about stuff that's actually fine). Scouts are also a very useful unit in games where screens are not needed, able to tie up things with first turn charges or grab remote maelstrom objectives. Having screening units is absolutely necessary in this edition, and it really doesn't take a lot of effort to blunt first turn charges/deep strikes.

There is a problem here - warptime & icon of wrath give a reliable 20" threat range (6"+6"+8"), meaning that the infiltrating bezerkers could deploy at all three of the gaps in your defensive line, walk past the speedbumps and threaten all but the table edge itself

Warptime can only be used on 1 unit of zerkers though, which makes this a lot more tractable (also it will be hard to get into casting range for unit C). As a marine player you probably also have some characters in your backline that can countercharge to clean up the berzerkers, they aren't immune to morale after all. Also, if the chaos player doesn't go first his whole plan falls apart anyway, which makes this type of lists a lot less appealing in a tournament setting.

Just to be clear, these are definitely tournament-level tactics and discussions, where players should expect to face things like this. I wouldn't expect my opponent to bring such an army to a friendly game against a player that doesn't know how to handle this tactic.

I don't know if this is a tournament level tactic. It's too dependent on whose going first, the Alpha Legion player could lose all his inflitrators before getting to move. It would be impossible to table most lists this way, and it's not like Berzerkers are completely unstoppable.

Maybe if the rest of the army was Obliterators, Terminators and other things that can deep strike. Maybe.

 techsoldaten wrote:

I don't know if this is a tournament level tactic. It's too dependent on whose going first, the Alpha Legion player could lose all his inflitrators before getting to move. It would be impossible to table most lists this way, and it's not like Berzerkers are completely unstoppable.

Maybe if the rest of the army was Obliterators, Terminators and other things that can deep strike. Maybe.

The alpha legion player knows if he will go first when deploying the infiltrating units. If he has first turn he sets them up nine inches away from enemy lines and proceeds to win the game. If he goes second, he sets them up out of line of sight, or somewhere in cover. He has all the board to choose from.

The rest of the army cannot be deepstrikers. Only half you army can be deployed into reserves.

Donno, when the alpha isn't first, he CAN deploy further away in safety, but then can he actually win without a turn one charge in an army so clearly built around it?
It's a coin toss of sorts.

Beyond that, if you fall to a hard counter, you are screwed. I can't see this army doing well against my tzeentch forces.
Even if you avoid the horror chaff, you get stuck with all is dust severely reducing your damage output.
When I'll actually have codcies, it would only get more in my favor.

If you asked them about this problem, Games Workshop's response would probably either be silence or "you need more impassable terrain, buy it here!"

 Cream Tea wrote:
If you asked them about this problem, Games Workshop's response would probably either be silence or "you need more impassable terrain, buy it here!"

Honestly.... you do tho, You should be playing with a lot of terrain. It highly helps.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Donno, when the alpha isn't first, he CAN deploy further away in safety, but then can he actually win without a turn one charge in an army so clearly built around it?
It's a coin toss of sorts.

Beyond that, if you fall to a hard counter, you are screwed. I can't see this army doing well against my tzeentch forces.
Even if you avoid the horror chaff, you get stuck with all is dust severely reducing your damage output.
When I'll actually have codcies, it would only get more in my favor.

Yes, exactly. The fact you can deploy further away is actually a disadvantage, it means their effectiveness is diminished at the same time your opponent gets to bring the full force of their army to bear. I can't see this working in a tournament where your opponent is probably set up with appropriate screening units on top of that.

I get the restriction on deep striking units, but this could only work at the tournament level if there were some "hammers" coming in from reserve to balance the potential for things to go wrong. Maybe the infiltrators are really just distraction units that set the table for combi-plasma Terminators, Obliterators, maybe even Warp Talons. That way, first turn is a nice-to-have, not a have-to-have.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Cream Tea wrote:
If you asked them about this problem, Games Workshop's response would probably either be silence or "you need more impassable terrain, buy it here!"

Honestly.... you do tho, You should be playing with a lot of terrain. It highly helps.

Agreed, it helps a lot.

I would like a game that worked with sparse terrain and with massive amounts of terrain. Not all combat in the 41st millennium should be in hive cities.

I have a related question.
I used to play SW and I use them exclusively, would Fenrisian Wolves be a good bubble-wrap unit against something like this even though they don't have shooting?

 Arkaine wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Infiltrate in the prior 2 editions also specifically disallowed assaulting in the first turn, so it can hardly be compared to the RG/AL stratagems. You also could not get anywhere near as close as 3" for the assault roll.

And yet as I pointed out here:

 Arkaine wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
IIRC the old-style infiltrate rule had a much harsher distance requirement. Something like 18" if any enemy unit could draw LoS to you, right?

For most infiltrators. Some like the genestealers could get even closer. But last edition also didn't allow charging out of deep strike so a lot of things have changed to allow for more close combat opportunities as 40k was far too much about gunlines shooting things off the board in relative safety.

...that's a common New Edition thing. We can't keep holding this edition to the standards of previous ones. It's a fact of life now that close combat is relevant and the even more prior editions allowed move and charge out of infiltration with the definite possibility of 3" charges. Simply because the previous two did not doesn't mean much when it's been like that for several editions beyond the most recent.

I liken it to what D&D did. They started with basic rules for 1st and 2nd edition, moved over to ultra complicated analytical rules for 3rd, then backed off a bit for 4th and finally scrapped it all and went back to basic rules for 5th. 40k has taken a similar path because trying to balance a machine with hundreds of moving parts that constantly keep changing specs is no easy task.

With the difference being fifth ed d and d is an improvement over ad and d. Tho I still use ad and d books. Eighth ed forty k is not better than second ed given some simple tweaks and army comp restrictions that straight eighth is lacking...

 Cream Tea wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Cream Tea wrote:
If you asked them about this problem, Games Workshop's response would probably either be silence or "you need more impassable terrain, buy it here!"

Honestly.... you do tho, You should be playing with a lot of terrain. It highly helps.

Agreed, it helps a lot.

I would like a game that worked with sparse terrain and with massive amounts of terrain. Not all combat in the 41st millennium should be in hive cities.

Agree

kaotkbliss wrote:
I have a related question.
I used to play SW and I use them exclusively, would Fenrisian Wolves be a good bubble-wrap unit against something like this even though they don't have shooting?

Yes, being 9pts each, this is fine.

I got tabled in a doubles tourney before my first turn last weekend...

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Yes, being 9pts each, this is fine.

Thank you

NickMcMahon wrote:

Not just the guardians but declared the charge on everyone behind them, and did a 3' charge and killed everthing then consolidated and piled in and killed everything else with a second attack. The wave serpent died last but then it was gg.

Consolidation happens at the end of the fight phase, after all attacks are resolved. It doesn't matter whether you've previously declared a charge against the unit consolidated into. It also doesn't matter how many times the player gets to nominate the unit to attack. The sub-phase is sequential. You don't go back to attacking if you have consolidated. The rules are quite clear.

 otherone wrote:

NickMcMahon wrote:

Not just the guardians but declared the charge on everyone behind them, and did a 3' charge and killed everthing then consolidated and piled in and killed everything else with a second attack. The wave serpent died last but then it was gg.

Consolidation happens at the end of the fight phase, after all attacks are resolved. It doesn't matter whether you've previously declared a charge against the unit consolidated into. It also doesn't matter how many times the player gets to nominate the unit to attack. The sub-phase is sequential. You don't go back to attacking if you have consolidated. The rules are quite clear.

Nope. That's not how it works. You follow steps 2-6, which includes consolidation, then that unit has done everything and you pick a new unit. If you can nominate a unit twice, then that unit follows steps 2-6 again, including piling in and consolidation.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 otherone wrote:

NickMcMahon wrote:

Not just the guardians but declared the charge on everyone behind them, and did a 3' charge and killed everthing then consolidated and piled in and killed everything else with a second attack. The wave serpent died last but then it was gg.

Consolidation happens at the end of the fight phase, after all attacks are resolved. It doesn't matter whether you've previously declared a charge against the unit consolidated into. It also doesn't matter how many times the player gets to nominate the unit to attack. The sub-phase is sequential. You don't go back to attacking if you have consolidated. The rules are quite clear.

Nope. That's not how it works. You follow steps 2-6, which includes consolidation, then that unit has done everything and you pick a new unit. If you can nominate a unit twice, then that unit follows steps 2-6 again, including piling in and consolidation.

This, Faq quote

Q: If a unit has an ability that allows it to fight twice in the
Fight phase (e.g. Berzerkers), at what point during the Fight phase do they fight for the second time?
A: Treat each time the unit is able to fight as a separate unit selected to fight for all purposes.

So you treat them as a new unit, hence starting over on the Fight Phase Chart.

Yup, step 2-6 x2. I had a game against this with my nids, Dawn of War deployment. Tried to screen, didn't have enough space, and maybe I underestimated the huge amount of ground Berzerkers can cover. They can also use Warp Time on the same unit that has Forward Operatives, to really ensure that Berzerkers start their charge 1" away. In this game I was able to pull off a Starcraft 'base-trade' and get a draw, thanks to a lot of my list was in reserves.

Charge move, 2 pile ins and 2 consolidates. Really hard to screen off in Dawn of War. I'm considering spreading out in the extreme if I have to fight this again, then again nids need to be clustered to work so it's a lose -lose situation for me.

But I'm rather tabled in two turns by Berzerkers than by Tau Commander spam. Not that I need to chose, when I can have both.

pismakron wrote:

4) Bezerkers can consolidate three inches and then pile in three more inches. You need at least six+ inches of empty space between your screen and your backfield.

Pile In moves are only taken by units that can fight. Units not within 1" of the enemy can't fight. A standard base is just under an inch across. Unless they teleported past your screening unit, they won't be eligible to fight if your other units are ~3.5 inches away from the screening unit.