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HoundsofDemos wrote:

We generally are not. I've been a space marine player for over a decade and I will never buy a single primaris model. The Plague War books were a good read but having SUPER DUPER marines added nothing. Delete the word primaris and you have the same story. And compared to the normal marine line, yea they have maybe 10% percent of the options and kitbashing potential and even that generally requires you to have original marine bitz.

The core take away that I think people miss is who wouldn't be upset that your army is never getting anything new/ might be deleted in a few years.

Your army is getting plenty of new stuff, you're just irrationally refusing to get them.

 Crimson wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

We generally are not. I've been a space marine player for over a decade and I will never buy a single primaris model. The Plague War books were a good read but having SUPER DUPER marines added nothing. Delete the word primaris and you have the same story. And compared to the normal marine line, yea they have maybe 10% percent of the options and kitbashing potential and even that generally requires you to have original marine bitz.

The core take away that I think people miss is who wouldn't be upset that your army is never getting anything new/ might be deleted in a few years.

Your army is getting plenty of new stuff, you're just irrationally refusing to get them.

Well, not if you play Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Grey Knights and you've gotten used to being treated on par with other separate, smaller factions.

Especially grey knights, lol.

 Crimson wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

We generally are not. I've been a space marine player for over a decade and I will never buy a single primaris model. The Plague War books were a good read but having SUPER DUPER marines added nothing. Delete the word primaris and you have the same story. And compared to the normal marine line, yea they have maybe 10% percent of the options and kitbashing potential and even that generally requires you to have original marine bitz.

The core take away that I think people miss is who wouldn't be upset that your army is never getting anything new/ might be deleted in a few years.

Your army is getting plenty of new stuff, you're just irrationally refusing to get them.

it might as well be a new faction, with how terrible they look fielded side by side tbh. I can't stand runnig normal marines next to Primaris marines.

the_scotsman wrote:

Well, not if you play Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Grey Knights and you've gotten used to being treated on par with other separate, smaller factions.

Especially grey knights, lol.

Well, Grey Knights are boned, that's true. Other loyalist marine factions get Primaris though, so they're fine.

Sir Heckington wrote:


it might as well be a new faction, with how terrible they look fielded side by side tbh. I can't stand runnig normal marines next to Primaris marines.

Me neither, and that's why I shelved my minimarines, but that's a personal preference. The same issue would exist if you tried to field Rogue Trader beakies next to the later marines.

They might as well be an entirely different faction. Yay, I got new not marines that are completely incompatible with any existing models and have completely different options, background, can't share transports/mix squads and most of the existing bitz I have are useless. I should be so excited and grateful.

Sir Heckington wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

We generally are not. I've been a space marine player for over a decade and I will never buy a single primaris model. The Plague War books were a good read but having SUPER DUPER marines added nothing. Delete the word primaris and you have the same story. And compared to the normal marine line, yea they have maybe 10% percent of the options and kitbashing potential and even that generally requires you to have original marine bitz.

The core take away that I think people miss is who wouldn't be upset that your army is never getting anything new/ might be deleted in a few years.

Your army is getting plenty of new stuff, you're just irrationally refusing to get them.

it might as well be a new faction, with how terrible they look fielded side by side tbh. I can't stand runnig normal marines next to Primaris marines.

Whats even worse is how bad they look next to anything FW have made over the years around thenold marine scale.
It feels really great knowing that they will all be squatted in 40K along with small marines and it not like 30K is being given any support by GW either just a giant You buy Primaris from GW

I think people need to reign in their exasperation a tad. There's no point in making something sound worse than it is.

1) Yes, Primaris will replace Space Marines.
2) Normal Space Marines will continue to have rules for 5-10 years at minimum...they're not going anywhere. Even when the kits get phased out, GW knows there's a massive population of people with classic marine armies.
3) There have been enough Space Marines sold that they'll be available via eBay and other sources for 10+ years easily.
4) Space Marine focus shifting to Primaris doesn't mean that GW will just wipe the shelves clean of marine units in the next six months and say "tough gak".

So what's the end result? As a classic marine player there's one sad thing: no new models. Doesn't mean any of your current models are invalidated, and let's be honest...marines have a fething gigantic 3rd party support mechanism, so even then you still have access to heaps of alternate sculpts moving forward (though these companies are already adopting to Primaris stuff). You'll also have the full Horus Heresy line if you're really hard up for models. Does it suck going forward that your line of marines is done? I guess. But I look at it from an Eldar player's perspective. My whole 5500 points army is 95% metals from the mid-90's...and I bought them in the past two years.

The Eldar haven't had new stuff in...ages (excluding the terrible Ynnari stuff). It doesn't make me love Eldar any less. There's also feth-all for support from 3rd party manufacturers for Eldar. Again, doesn't mean I don't like Eldar any more. I have models in my army which are 25 years old and still have rules. Yes, it sucks you won't be getting new models, but marines aren't going anywhere - you still have a massively vast range of models to choose from and purchase. I think you guys need to dial down the "well, I'm gonna throw my marines in the trash!" kind of attitude.

If 8th edition really is the last edition and a living ruleset, it's possible that the units in the SM codex will still be valid even if a Primaris-only codex is released (in the same way that units from the index are still valid).

 Elbows wrote:
I think people need to reign in their exasperation a tad. There's no point in making something sound worse than it is.

1) Yes, Primaris will replace Space Marines.
2) Normal Space Marines will continue to have rules for 5-10 years at minimum...they're not going anywhere. Even when the kits get phased out, GW knows there's a massive population of people with classic marine armies.
3) There have been enough Space Marines sold that they'll be available via eBay and other sources for 10+ years easily.
4) Space Marine focus shifting to Primaris doesn't mean that GW will just wipe the shelves clean of marine units in the next six months and say "tough gak".

So what's the end result? As a classic marine player there's one sad thing: no new models. Doesn't mean any of your current models are invalidated, and let's be honest...marines have a fething gigantic 3rd party support mechanism, so even then you still have access to heaps of alternate sculpts moving forward (though these companies are already adopting to Primaris stuff). You'll also have the full Horus Heresy line if you're really hard up for models. Does it suck going forward that your line of marines is done? I guess. But I look at it from an Eldar player's perspective. My whole 5500 points army is 95% metals from the mid-90's...and I bought them in the past two years.

The Eldar haven't had new stuff in...ages (excluding the terrible Ynnari stuff). It doesn't make me love Eldar any less. There's also feth-all for support from 3rd party manufacturers for Eldar. Again, doesn't mean I don't like Eldar any more. I have models in my army which are 25 years old and still have rules. Yes, it sucks you won't be getting new models, but marines aren't going anywhere - you still have a massively vast range of models to choose from and purchase. I think you guys need to dial down the "well, I'm gonna throw my marines in the trash!" kind of attitude.

The issue is GW doesn't actually have to remove the rules from old marines to squat them just leave them as they are, ie not a competitive army and just give primaris units reduced points cost via CA while increasing FW points and it won't matter a damn if you still technically have valid rules if they are unusable.

In the Rogue Trader marines were recruited as adults. They had some hormone treatment and enhancements, but were mostly normal people. A squad could have wild combinations of weapons, lasguns, autoguns, webbers or even shuriken catapults. They were represented by tiny, beaky models. Oh, and they could have a grav tank.

Later the fluff was retconned. Marines gained a lot more enhancements, they become much superhuman, and even the statline was improved. However many of the weapon options of the old vanished, though they gained many new units, albeit with much more structured and restrained gear selection. They also got new models, which were noticeably larger than the older ones.

Sounds familiar? If GW had not done what many people are decrying now, you'd still be playing with rogue trader beakies, armed with lasguns and shuriken cannons. Only thing different this time, is that they didn't just retcon things, they tried to create a narrative (as awkward as it may be) which allows you to use your old style and new style marines side by side. Granted, very few people seem to be satisfied with this solution, so a clear retcon might have been better this time too.

 Crimson wrote:
which allows you to use your old style and new style marines side by side.

with the added side effect of neither having ideal rules because GW has to make them different enough to merit them being side by side.
If they had just started 8E will 15ppm 2W Marines that would have been better. Release Mark X armoured Marines, sure, but make them still Tacs, Devs, AMs, etc
"Primaris" Marine could have just been the new roles such as Helblasters, Inceptors and Aggresors. But the Standard Marines stay the same, but with the option of having Mark X armour

-

 Elbows wrote:

2) Normal Space Marines will continue to have rules for 5-10 years at minimum...they're not going anywhere. Even when the kits get phased out, GW knows there's a massive population of people with classic marine armies.

They will not remove their rules, they will just make them worse than primaris. So you either will buy primaris, or will buy new army to play a game. This may be not squatting, but tomb kinging.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
So what's the end result? As a classic marine player there's one sad thing: no new models. Doesn't mean any of your current models are invalidated, and let's be honest...marines have a fething gigantic 3rd party support mechanism, so even then you still have access to heaps of alternate sculpts moving forward (though these companies are already adopting to Primaris stuff). You'll also have the full Horus Heresy line if you're really hard up for models. Does it suck going forward that your line of marines is done? I guess. But I look at it from an Eldar player's perspective. My whole 5500 points army is 95% metals from the mid-90's...and I bought them in the past two years.

The Eldar haven't had new stuff in...ages (excluding the terrible Ynnari stuff). It doesn't make me love Eldar any less. There's also feth-all for support from 3rd party manufacturers for Eldar. Again, doesn't mean I don't like Eldar any more. I have models in my army which are 25 years old and still have rules. Yes, it sucks you won't be getting new models, but marines aren't going anywhere - you still have a massively vast range of models to choose from and purchase. I think you guys need to dial down the "well, I'm gonna throw my marines in the trash!" kind of attitude.

Nice, so you bought your army just 2 years ago?
Now imagine this: next month - GW write a plot: almost all craftworld eldars and drukhai are dead. But now there is new eldar race that worship reborn eldar Gods - primaris eldars. All your aspect warriors, guardins and construct still will have some rules, but GW will release new primaris aspect warriors, primaris guardians, primaris construct and, ofcourse, primaris serpent (with the same role, but different weapons and model's look, so you couldn't use your old minis) that will be better than your current ones. GW want you to buy new kits, so all your army is just strickly worse than the new stuff, and you have to buy. Sounds awesome, right?

They did that. They just use the same models and rules with "But Ynnari" tacked on top.

I'm skeptical about primaris replacing old marines tbh. For 2 reasons mainly:
- What about Chaos? GW released DG with primaris and all the DG models are still shorter than primaris. Same with TS and the new BL. If Primaris are "new scale" why didn't they make them match the new chaos models? Plus, squatting old marines would make chaos marines straight up inferior troopers to their imperial counterparts... which doesn't feel right. So, maybe the solution is to give chaos marines 2W and 2A? If that's the case, why even bother with "primaris" at all? Upscaling Chaos didn't have fluff consequences. Just be like "here's new gear, and squads work different under Gman's new codex, also, here's more pure geneseed or something". Instead, Primaris are described as being better marines for...no reason? IDK, the whole things a mess.

- Grey Knights aren't receiving primaris... for now at least. If there's no plans to upgrade grey knights, then you can't really be planning to squat old marines... unless you squat GK. Corporate lingo maybe?

Other, kinda weak reasons:
- GW said they won't replace old marines. Sure that's not worth much, but it would make sense if we assume that GW staffers love their old marines too. And if they do change their mind, at least we can point to them being misleading, I guess.
- The space marine heroes thing. It's not a kit per se, but it is an attempt to enter the Japanese market using old marines rather than numarines, which doesn't line up with the whole "get rid of them" plan. Why not use primaris instead? Just seems counter-productive to said plan.

That's said, I would not be surprised if primaris replace marines, but I wouldn't bet on it yet. The old kits will last 20 years if GW's other ranges are to be taken as an example of mould longevity.

 Brother Castor wrote:
If 8th edition really is the last edition and a living ruleset, it's possible that the units in the SM codex will still be valid even if a Primaris-only codex is released (in the same way that units from the index are still valid).

It seems I'm not the only one thinking this could be possible...

Dandelion wrote:
- Grey Knights aren't receiving primaris... for now at least. If there's no plans to upgrade grey knights, then you can't really be planning to squat old marines... unless you squat GK. Corporate lingo maybe?.

Considering GKs do not share the same kits as other Marines, I don't really see your point.
It's entirely possible that regular Marine chapters have all their standard Marine kits replaced with Primaris and GK Strike squads stick around. After all, they have wargear unique to their "chapter" that are relics from a different time, so why not also keep the same "relic" Marines?

Not saying it will happen as I truly believe GKs will get Primaris long before regular Marines get phase out, but still

-

 Galef wrote:
Considering GKs do not share the same kits as other Marines, I don't really see your point.

What does it matter that the kits different?

Because they likely use different molds. There is a lot of speculation that a lot of FW stuff went the way of the dodo due to the molds breaking and GW not wanting to take the cost of replacing them. GW will probably continue to sell most of the smaller marine kits until the same thing happens.

Dandelion wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Considering GKs do not share the same kits as other Marines, I don't really see your point.

What does it matter that the kits different?

Because if GW "phases out" old Marines, it WILL be by removing/replacing kits. And from a practicality standpoint, it will be only a few kits at a time.
There's no way GW releases over a dozen kits, while at the same time removes SEVERAL dozen kits at the same time, overnight.

GKs do NOT use the Tactical Marine kit, so if GW eventually released an Intercessor kit with options to replace Tacticals completely, it will not affect GKs
If all other standard marines are removed, but GK Strikes are still around, you would still be able to say standard Marines got squatted

-

 Galef wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Considering GKs do not share the same kits as other Marines, I don't really see your point.

What does it matter that the kits different?

Because if GW "phases out" old Marines, it WILL be by removing/replacing kits. And from a practicality standpoint, it will be only a few kits at a time.
There's no way GW releases over a dozen kits, while at the same time removes SEVERAL dozen kits at the same time, overnight.

GKs do NOT use the Tactical Marine kit, so if GW eventually released an Intercessor kit with options to replace Tacticals completely, it will not affect GKs
If all other standard marines are removed, but GK Strikes are still around, you would still be able to say standard Marines got squatted

-

Intercessers are already new tacticals. They just have different loadout because GW don't want to let you use your current minimarines, they want you to buy new ones.

Silver144 wrote:
Intercessers are already new tacticals. They just have different loadout because GW don't want to let you use your current minimarines, they want you to buy new ones.

Which while this might have been good for their business model, I don't think it was good for their customer service model.
I would have much preferred that Intercessors have the same exact options and were meant to outright replace Tacticals. That way you COULD use your old models instead of being pigeon-holed into buy new ones. Most players would have still bought plenty even if they didn't have to.

-

 Galef wrote:
Because if GW "phases out" old Marines, it WILL be by removing/replacing kits. And from a practicality standpoint, it will be only a few kits at a time.
There's no way GW releases over a dozen kits, while at the same time removes SEVERAL dozen kits at the same time, overnight.

GKs do NOT use the Tactical Marine kit, so if GW eventually released an Intercessor kit with options to replace Tacticals completely, it will not affect GKs
If all other standard marines are removed, but GK Strikes are still around, you would still be able to say standard Marines got squatted

-

But, is there any indication that primaris will be one-to-one replacements and not just completely new units? Intercessors maybe, but what about Aggressors? What do they replace and how would that work? If GW were to do primaris grey knights it would only take one kit to do so. And GW is going to make more primaris kits anyway so what's stopping them?

 Galef wrote:

Silver144 wrote:
Intercessers are already new tacticals. They just have different loadout because GW don't want to let you use your current minimarines, they want you to buy new ones.

Which while this might have been good for their business model, I don't think it was good for their customer service model.
I would have much preferred that Intercessors have the same exact options and were meant to outright replace Tacticals. That way you COULD use your old models instead of being pigeon-holed into buy new ones. Most players would have still bought plenty even if they didn't have to.

-

Yep, everyone understand that. Should they just release true scale marines - I'll be among the first to buy those kits to expand my army. I always glad to expand my collectiot. But expanding is not replacing.

Aggressors are pretty much what happens if you fused a Terminator with a centurion.

And this is why they piss off so many customers

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Aggressors are pretty much what happens if you fused a Terminator with a centurion.

So, in other words, not a one-to-one replacement of termies. With their current rules, aggressors can't fill the profile of termies, and likely never will. They'll just be different.

The more I look at it, the more I see primaris as just extra bloat. The only thing they added was more imposing marines.

Silver144 wrote:


Yep, everyone understand that. Should they just release true scale marines - I'll be among the first to buy those kits to expand my army. I always glad to expand my collectiot. But expanding is not replacing.

I really don't understand what's the difference in practice though. If Intercessor models had been called 'Tactical Marines' and wouldn't have had their own datasheet, you would have bought them, and used them along with your older marines? Why does it matter that they have slightly different rules? If you're going to use them with the old marines, doesn't it make more sense if slightly different looking models have slightly different rules?

Dandelion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Aggressors are pretty much what happens if you fused a Terminator with a centurion.

So, in other words, not a one-to-one replacement of termies. With their current rules, aggressors can't fill the profile of termies, and likely never will. They'll just be different.

The more I look at it, the more I see primaris as just extra bloat. The only thing they added was more imposing marines.

Ok, lets see - plenty s4 no ap d1 shooting and s8 powerfist attacks in melee. Now lets check terminators: s4 no ap d1 stormbolter, s8 powerfists attack. Yeeeah, totally not the same role.

Silver,

Yes, I purchased my current army via old eBay rescues over the past 18 months...fully aware there is likely never going to be an Eldar upgrade of the current models. I fully expect Ynnari will become a "Primaris" version of Eldar (i.e. new story, new models etc.) and they'll probably suck. That does nothing to diminish how I feel about my current Eldar models. I'll continue owning, playing and enjoying the Eldar stuff I have.

Now, rules-wise...that's an enitrely different discussion. As a CSM player, I can agree with marines having lack lustre rules.

Silver144 wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Aggressors are pretty much what happens if you fused a Terminator with a centurion.

So, in other words, not a one-to-one replacement of termies. With their current rules, aggressors can't fill the profile of termies, and likely never will. They'll just be different.

The more I look at it, the more I see primaris as just extra bloat. The only thing they added was more imposing marines.

Ok, lets see - plenty s4 no ap d1 shooting and s8 powerfist attacks in melee. Now lets check terminators: s4 no ap d1 stormbolter, s8 powerfists attack. Yeeeah, totally not the same role.

So, you'd be ok running termies as aggressors? Cuz that's what I'm talking about.