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 Daedalus81 wrote:

Personally, I find that it's pretty clear as to why some units get icons/marks and others don't as a matter of both internal and external balance.

Well you know best, I guess. Certainly your 'clarity' is better than GW's, who had to edit articles about which units could take icons.

Voss wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Personally, I find that it's pretty clear as to why some units get icons/marks and others don't as a matter of both internal and external balance.

Well you know best, I guess. Certainly your 'clarity' is better than GW's, who had to edit articles about which units could take icons.

yeah, possessed really shouldnt get marks, makes no sense that dudes blessed by the gods to receive mutations would also be marked by the gods.

Oh and an icon would be really too heavy for a terminator to carry, oh, and we can't have something be more proeminent than the trophy racks.

Raptors would be way too OP if they had access to an icon too, glad GW in their infinite wisdom decided to curbstomp these options

 Daedalus81 wrote:

What are the night fighting rules now? I would think that something that is situational and usually only in turns 1/2 wouldn't be quite so useful even if it's on point for the legion.

NF means a 24" max range unless a unit has a rule or equipment that ignores NF. It also reduces BS and Ld by1 as well.
NL have a RoW that can force NF for at least two turns and makes it easier for a 3rd IIRC.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
If by successful you mean that GW has intended to push me further away from 40K then yes, it has been very successful.

Are you willing to elaborate what the codex did to push you away?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
That's a shame. Because HH2.0 has taken that fluffyness and cranked it up to 11. Not only do we get more ways to play the dirty fighters with A Talent For Murder, but the revamped Night Fighting rules and Night Lords ability to take Preysight (Night Vision) on everything (for a price now, and for good reason) truly makes the 8th Legion the "Lords of the Night". Nobody wants to deal with the 8th Legion after the sun sets.

What are the night fighting rules now? I would think that something that is situational and usually only in turns 1/2 wouldn't be quite so useful even if it's on point for the legion.

Any player can call Night Fighting in a mission that allows it, which is currently 5/6 of the missions in the BRB. If they do, Night Fighting takes affect Turn 1 on a roll of a 2+, and continues in Turn 2 on a roll of a 4+, then ends on Turn 3. Night Lords can guarantee Night Fighting Turns 1 and 2 with it carrying over to Turn 3 on a 4+ by taking the Terror Assault RoW. During Night Fighting everything is -1BS and Leadership and can only draw LoS out to 24". Barrage weapons must reroll any rolls of a "hit" on the scatter dice.

Some optional equipment can avoid some of the penalties: Augury Scanners (available to some infantry) and searchlights (most vehicles, not dreadnoughts though) avoid the 24" LoS restriction, Nuncio Voxes avoid the -1 to Leadership. Any Night Lords unit can take Preysight for 15 points, which allows them to ignore ALL of the restrictions, as well as the Shrouded USR (the major component of one of the standard defensive Reactions) and Shroud Bombs. Note that the bonus for Preysight is on a "per unit" basis, while things like Augury Scanners and Nuncio Voxes are "per model", which means my snipers can remove your Night Fighting mitigation by killing single models, while you have to kill the entire unit to remove mine. And only Night Lords can get Dreadnoughts that avoid the restrictions.

That -1 to Leadership makes it easier to Pin a unit, especially when there's a Night Lords unit with Fear within 12" for an additional -1. And Night Lords get +1 to wound against anything that's Pinned (also against anything falling back or outnumbered) in both melee and shooting. And any Night Lords unit with Bloody Murder (Night Lords only rule) gets +1A and to charges against Pinned units.

Let that all sink in, and then look at the mess that the 9th edition CSM codex handed to the 8th Legion.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Not just Jumppacks, but also the removal of double shooting and Votwl

Uhhh...good riddance. What a crutch that was.

Not Online was lamenting that double shooting/fight was left in the 9th edition CSM codex, not removed. We kept that, and almost 100 other stratagems, but lost core unit options we've had for decades in payment. That's a raw deal.

Tyel wrote:


"Then being a better player surely you can cope with running a slightly softer list"?

"I'm not going to give you a handicap so you can get unearned wins." "Git gud" etc.

Tyel wrote:


Blackie's proposals undoubtedly work better for a relatively small group of friends playing garagehammer, as against going to a store and playing a stranger you will likely never meet again.

They wouldn't work for my local gaming group down at the lgs. They're basically unworkable and *he* has the temerity to tell people they're doing it wrong? bs.

Tyel wrote:

Take the majority of lists in 40k. Change chapter A to chapter B. Change Relic/WLT/Psychic power choices from A to B. At a stroke its likely seemingly quite a bit worse and we have not yet begun messing with unit choices. Maybe at some point this seems so irrational you are "throwing" the game - but probably not. After all, you are the better player, running the better faction.

Throwing the game isn't necessary for it to be unfun, just giving one player an unearned advantage is enough. When you have two players of unequal skill, the less skilled player demanding that his opponent purposefully handicap himself so the less skilled player has an advantage is peak casual player/scrub entitlement. It's disrespectful, selfish, and shouldn't be indulged.

Tyel wrote:


I don't think that means someone who's played the game twice is going to have an equal chance against someone who is serious, plays in tournaments every other week etc. But two players of roughly equal interest in the game shouldn't be so far apart.

A player who has played twice is still in the learning stages. I'm talking about players who have played for a year or more.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
That's a shame. Because HH2.0 has taken that fluffyness and cranked it up to 11. Not only do we get more ways to play the dirty fighters with A Talent For Murder, but the revamped Night Fighting rules and Night Lords ability to take Preysight (Night Vision) on everything (for a price now, and for good reason) truly makes the 8th Legion the "Lords of the Night". Nobody wants to deal with the 8th Legion after the sun sets.

What are the night fighting rules now? I would think that something that is situational and usually only in turns 1/2 wouldn't be quite so useful even if it's on point for the legion.

Nightfighting is flat -1 on morale, no Los over 24 " It is requestable in most missions for the first and second turn. If you play against nightlords then the Nightlords can guarantee 2 turns of Night fighting through RoW and a 3rd on a 50/50. Also remember we are talking about actual Tables here, not dinky 40k mini wannabee tables introduced trough GW:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Not just Jumppacks, but also the removal of double shooting and Votwl

Uhhh...good riddance. What a crutch that was.

Further the avoidance of the hairbrained restrictions of Icons and marks

Personally, I find that it's pretty clear as to why some units get icons/marks and others don't as a matter of both internal and external balance.

We still got double shooting and Votwl in the codex, the codex didn't improve a damn thing design wise.

And then the icons and mark thingy balance decision...

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:
Okey, but what happens durning the talk.
Guy A I have 20 rubrics, 10 tzangors and a magnus.
Guy B I don't want you to use the magnus, because it makes you win.
Guy A what am I suppose to do then without magnus I don't have a legal force
etc etc

Let's assume no additional models are on hand.
The TS player pays for the cheapest HQ unit in his codex. Then he puts the thing in strategic reserve. And finally, because no actual model is on hand, simply doesn't bring it out of reserve.
Meanwhile the other player adjusts their pts lv down to match the TS players new total.

Karol wrote:
The whole talk thing works only works for people who both own and carry multiple thousands of points in multiple armies. That is an expiriance a 30+ year old may have, but not a teen. Unless they are using their dads or older brothers armies.

No, talking is cheap. Anyone can do it. You don't need to be a certain age. You don't need thousands of pts, multiple armies, & wagon train to carry it all with you all of the time. And you don't need to be super knowledgble about the game or know anything about the weekly world-wide meta. All you have to do is come up with something you both think will be fun to play.
Maybe that's equel pts. Maybe one side has certain additional restrictions. Maybe one side gets some extra perks.

Why does the player using Magnus need to compromise?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
Played two games against the new Chaos Marines and finally got to read through the codex.

I like it. For me, it harkens back to the 3.5 codex, but lacking the Lash Prince or 9 Obliterator lists of 3rd edition. I'm sure folks heavy in the tournament scene will find strong builds and place. It won't come from folks like me who only play once or twice a week.

So, to answer the OP question. Maybe? The Master of Executions feels a bit under costed: my first game I allowed that model a Heroic Intervention and then had my opponent slap my unit with 6 Mortal Wounds. Ouch. I completely underestimated its ability.

After a solid review of the codex, I'm building an Emperors Children army. It's the first Chaos army I've built since 3rd edition. I found an 3d print company who made sonic weapons fit the new Horus Heresy Marines which really inspired me.

GW got me again with a new release.

Master of executions feels like the dumbest unit in the dex right now. So many ways to kit him out where he's an absolute monster in combat. Played a few games with him last weekend and he was killing more than twice his cost in points per turn, no matter his loadout

And here we have it, people complaining about the Master of Executions. The guy moving 6" a turn.

Wait until you guys find out what the duelist equivalents from the Loyalist codex can do!

I'm strictly an EC player so that plays a big part of my disappointment with this Codex. GW has made EC a sort of "oh yeah, them." Legion. The Legion trait isn't bad but it's not all that great. The fight first rule for the mark is too easily negated by the fact if my opponent only charges me with one unit then my mark is worthless. I can have a unit of Legionaires that is, in every way, the equivalent of my Noise Marines and yet they cost less to field. 10 Marines with CCW and BP and Mark of Slaneesh is 200 pts [giving Champ Plas Pistol]. The same load out on 10 Noise Marines is 215 pts. They are literally the same units but the Noise Marines cost 15 points more. It's not the amount of points that bothers me. It's the idiocy of GW charging more points for the exact same thing.

Its also that GW took away the second blast master for units of 10. Someone in another thread told me it's because with the new rules blastmasters are approximately twice as good as before. While this may be true I'm not a fan of having to go out and replace my second blast master with a sonic blaster when I've used the same unit for years. There is no reason for GW to make this arbitrary decision. It's not like I don't pay a hefty point cost to get the blastmaster or that I can "load up" on them. But for some reason having two of them in one unit is too much.

Overall I'm just not impressed with this Codex. It's too restrictive for me both in terms of model choice(s) and equipment choice(s) not to mention all of the weird decisions like "In this unit a power sword is a power sword but in this unit a power sword uses a different set of modifiers and rules". All in all I'm just tired of GW's dumping on Chaos.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Spoiler:

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:
Okey, but what happens durning the talk.
Guy A I have 20 rubrics, 10 tzangors and a magnus.
Guy B I don't want you to use the magnus, because it makes you win.
Guy A what am I suppose to do then without magnus I don't have a legal force
etc etc

Let's assume no additional models are on hand.
The TS player pays for the cheapest HQ unit in his codex. Then he puts the thing in strategic reserve. And finally, because no actual model is on hand, simply doesn't bring it out of reserve.
Meanwhile the other player adjusts their pts lv down to match the TS players new total.

Karol wrote:
The whole talk thing works only works for people who both own and carry multiple thousands of points in multiple armies. That is an expiriance a 30+ year old may have, but not a teen. Unless they are using their dads or older brothers armies.

No, talking is cheap. Anyone can do it. You don't need to be a certain age. You don't need thousands of pts, multiple armies, & wagon train to carry it all with you all of the time. And you don't need to be super knowledgble about the game or know anything about the weekly world-wide meta. All you have to do is come up with something you both think will be fun to play.
Maybe that's equel pts. Maybe one side has certain additional restrictions. Maybe one side gets some extra perks.

Why does the player using Magnus need to compromise?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
Played two games against the new Chaos Marines and finally got to read through the codex.

I like it. For me, it harkens back to the 3.5 codex, but lacking the Lash Prince or 9 Obliterator lists of 3rd edition. I'm sure folks heavy in the tournament scene will find strong builds and place. It won't come from folks like me who only play once or twice a week.

So, to answer the OP question. Maybe? The Master of Executions feels a bit under costed: my first game I allowed that model a Heroic Intervention and then had my opponent slap my unit with 6 Mortal Wounds. Ouch. I completely underestimated its ability.

After a solid review of the codex, I'm building an Emperors Children army. It's the first Chaos army I've built since 3rd edition. I found an 3d print company who made sonic weapons fit the new Horus Heresy Marines which really inspired me.

GW got me again with a new release.

Master of executions feels like the dumbest unit in the dex right now. So many ways to kit him out where he's an absolute monster in combat. Played a few games with him last weekend and he was killing more than twice his cost in points per turn, no matter his loadout

And here we have it, people complaining about the Master of Executions. The guy moving 6" a turn.

Wait until you guys find out what the duelist equivalents from the Loyalist codex can do!

I legitimately don't know, what can they do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I'm strictly an EC player so that plays a big part of my disappointment with this Codex. GW has made EC a sort of "oh yeah, them." Legion. The Legion trait isn't bad but it's not all that great. The fight first rule for the mark is too easily negated by the fact if my opponent only charges me with one unit then my mark is worthless. I can have a unit of Legionaires that is, in every way, the equivalent of my Noise Marines and yet they cost less to field. 10 Marines with CCW and BP and Mark of Slaneesh is 200 pts [giving Champ Plas Pistol]. The same load out on 10 Noise Marines is 215 pts. They are literally the same units but the Noise Marines cost 15 points more. It's not the amount of points that bothers me. It's the idiocy of GW charging more points for the exact same thing.

Its also that GW took away the second blast master for units of 10. Someone in another thread told me it's because with the new rules blastmasters are approximately twice as good as before. While this may be true I'm not a fan of having to go out and replace my second blast master with a sonic blaster when I've used the same unit for years. There is no reason for GW to make this arbitrary decision. It's not like I don't pay a hefty point cost to get the blastmaster or that I can "load up" on them. But for some reason having two of them in one unit is too much.

Overall I'm just not impressed with this Codex. It's too restrictive for me both in terms of model choice(s) and equipment choice(s) not to mention all of the weird decisions like "In this unit a power sword is a power sword but in this unit a power sword uses a different set of modifiers and rules. All in all I'm just tired of GW's dumping on Chaos.

That's all fair, I can see why it's not for everyone's taste.

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Spoiler:

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:
Okey, but what happens durning the talk.
Guy A I have 20 rubrics, 10 tzangors and a magnus.
Guy B I don't want you to use the magnus, because it makes you win.
Guy A what am I suppose to do then without magnus I don't have a legal force
etc etc

Let's assume no additional models are on hand.
The TS player pays for the cheapest HQ unit in his codex. Then he puts the thing in strategic reserve. And finally, because no actual model is on hand, simply doesn't bring it out of reserve.
Meanwhile the other player adjusts their pts lv down to match the TS players new total.

Karol wrote:
The whole talk thing works only works for people who both own and carry multiple thousands of points in multiple armies. That is an expiriance a 30+ year old may have, but not a teen. Unless they are using their dads or older brothers armies.

No, talking is cheap. Anyone can do it. You don't need to be a certain age. You don't need thousands of pts, multiple armies, & wagon train to carry it all with you all of the time. And you don't need to be super knowledgble about the game or know anything about the weekly world-wide meta. All you have to do is come up with something you both think will be fun to play.
Maybe that's equel pts. Maybe one side has certain additional restrictions. Maybe one side gets some extra perks.

Why does the player using Magnus need to compromise?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
Played two games against the new Chaos Marines and finally got to read through the codex.

I like it. For me, it harkens back to the 3.5 codex, but lacking the Lash Prince or 9 Obliterator lists of 3rd edition. I'm sure folks heavy in the tournament scene will find strong builds and place. It won't come from folks like me who only play once or twice a week.

So, to answer the OP question. Maybe? The Master of Executions feels a bit under costed: my first game I allowed that model a Heroic Intervention and then had my opponent slap my unit with 6 Mortal Wounds. Ouch. I completely underestimated its ability.

After a solid review of the codex, I'm building an Emperors Children army. It's the first Chaos army I've built since 3rd edition. I found an 3d print company who made sonic weapons fit the new Horus Heresy Marines which really inspired me.

GW got me again with a new release.

Master of executions feels like the dumbest unit in the dex right now. So many ways to kit him out where he's an absolute monster in combat. Played a few games with him last weekend and he was killing more than twice his cost in points per turn, no matter his loadout

And here we have it, people complaining about the Master of Executions. The guy moving 6" a turn.

Wait until you guys find out what the duelist equivalents from the Loyalist codex can do!

I legitimately don't know, what can they do?

They have a Bolt Pistol and Relic Blade (S+3, AP-3, D2). They reroll wounds against characters, and on a wound roll of six they inflict 2 Mortal Wounds and the attack sequence ends. I literally only use one because Red Corsairs. Otherwise, what Loyalists can do is significantly better.

Not Online!!! wrote:
We still got double shooting and Votwl in the codex, the codex didn't improve a damn thing design wise.

Yes, but it's nowhere what it used to be to the point that it isn't an issue.

And then the icons and mark thingy balance decision...

Spoiler:

Super cereal.

Icons on Terminators would make them the de-facto unit in the book above all else / Marks on Obliterators would force you to take units of 3 for the cost savings and would make them pretty silly with T5 2+ AOC and INFANTRY / Icons on Havocs changes a lot of the basic considerations to favor Nurgle / etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Any player can call Night Fighting in a mission that allows it, which is currently 5/6 of the missions in the BRB. If they do, Night Fighting takes affect Turn 1 on a roll of a 2+, and continues in Turn 2 on a roll of a 4+, then ends on Turn 3. Night Lords can guarantee Night Fighting Turns 1 and 2 with it carrying over to Turn 3 on a 4+ by taking the Terror Assault RoW. During Night Fighting everything is -1BS and Leadership and can only draw LoS out to 24". Barrage weapons must reroll any rolls of a "hit" on the scatter dice.

Some optional equipment can avoid some of the penalties: Augury Scanners (available to some infantry) and searchlights (most vehicles, not dreadnoughts though) avoid the 24" LoS restriction, Nuncio Voxes avoid the -1 to Leadership. Any Night Lords unit can take Preysight for 15 points, which allows them to ignore ALL of the restrictions, as well as the Shrouded USR (the major component of one of the standard defensive Reactions) and Shroud Bombs. Note that the bonus for Preysight is on a "per unit" basis, while things like Augury Scanners and Nuncio Voxes are "per model", which means my snipers can remove your Night Fighting mitigation by killing single models, while you have to kill the entire unit to remove mine. And only Night Lords can get Dreadnoughts that avoid the restrictions.

That -1 to Leadership makes it easier to Pin a unit, especially when there's a Night Lords unit with Fear within 12" for an additional -1. And Night Lords get +1 to wound against anything that's Pinned (also against anything falling back or outnumbered) in both melee and shooting. And any Night Lords unit with Bloody Murder (Night Lords only rule) gets +1A and to charges against Pinned units.

Let that all sink in, and then look at the mess that the 9th edition CSM codex handed to the 8th Legion.

That's all pretty cool and I dare say potentially meta warping, but I have no experience in the new HH rules to really follow through on that statement.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Spoiler:

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:
Okey, but what happens durning the talk.
Guy A I have 20 rubrics, 10 tzangors and a magnus.
Guy B I don't want you to use the magnus, because it makes you win.
Guy A what am I suppose to do then without magnus I don't have a legal force
etc etc

Let's assume no additional models are on hand.
The TS player pays for the cheapest HQ unit in his codex. Then he puts the thing in strategic reserve. And finally, because no actual model is on hand, simply doesn't bring it out of reserve.
Meanwhile the other player adjusts their pts lv down to match the TS players new total.

Karol wrote:
The whole talk thing works only works for people who both own and carry multiple thousands of points in multiple armies. That is an expiriance a 30+ year old may have, but not a teen. Unless they are using their dads or older brothers armies.

No, talking is cheap. Anyone can do it. You don't need to be a certain age. You don't need thousands of pts, multiple armies, & wagon train to carry it all with you all of the time. And you don't need to be super knowledgble about the game or know anything about the weekly world-wide meta. All you have to do is come up with something you both think will be fun to play.
Maybe that's equel pts. Maybe one side has certain additional restrictions. Maybe one side gets some extra perks.

Why does the player using Magnus need to compromise?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
Played two games against the new Chaos Marines and finally got to read through the codex.

I like it. For me, it harkens back to the 3.5 codex, but lacking the Lash Prince or 9 Obliterator lists of 3rd edition. I'm sure folks heavy in the tournament scene will find strong builds and place. It won't come from folks like me who only play once or twice a week.

So, to answer the OP question. Maybe? The Master of Executions feels a bit under costed: my first game I allowed that model a Heroic Intervention and then had my opponent slap my unit with 6 Mortal Wounds. Ouch. I completely underestimated its ability.

After a solid review of the codex, I'm building an Emperors Children army. It's the first Chaos army I've built since 3rd edition. I found an 3d print company who made sonic weapons fit the new Horus Heresy Marines which really inspired me.

GW got me again with a new release.

Master of executions feels like the dumbest unit in the dex right now. So many ways to kit him out where he's an absolute monster in combat. Played a few games with him last weekend and he was killing more than twice his cost in points per turn, no matter his loadout

And here we have it, people complaining about the Master of Executions. The guy moving 6" a turn.

Wait until you guys find out what the duelist equivalents from the Loyalist codex can do!

I legitimately don't know, what can they do?

They have a Bolt Pistol and Relic Blade (S+3, AP-3, D2). They reroll wounds against characters, and on a wound roll of six they inflict 2 Mortal Wounds and the attack sequence ends. I literally only use one because Red Corsairs. Otherwise, what Loyalists can do is significantly better.

No, sorry, what can the loyalist ones do that's better?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

And here we have it, people complaining about the Master of Executions. The guy moving 6" a turn.

Wait until you guys find out what the duelist equivalents from the Loyalist codex can do!

I legitimately don't know, what can they do?

They have a Bolt Pistol and Relic Blade (S+3, AP-3, D2). They reroll wounds against characters, and on a wound roll of six they inflict 2 Mortal Wounds and the attack sequence ends. I literally only use one because Red Corsairs. Otherwise, what Loyalists can do is significantly better.

I'm not complaining, just pointing out that he's a brutal melee unit, and no, you can kit him out to have a lot more damage output than what loyalists can do. Also, 6" isnt exactly slow when the current mission design basically makes every game into a midfield slapfest anyway.

In my nights lords with no external buffs i can get him :

6+D3 attacks with exploding 6's all game
S8 -3 2 D3+2 damage

Exploding 6's means he basically deals 2 mortals in addition to the regular damage

and thats far from the most output you can get out of that 80pts model.

slap Demonic strength on top and he's now at 8+D3 S10 attacks

Speaking personally, I bought the 7th and 8th ed CSM books, but won't be buying the 9th ed one. I don't like the overall direction of 9th ed books. Should I play chaos I will play either an older edition or get the rules some other way.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Speaking personally, I bought the 7th and 8th ed CSM books, but won't be buying the 9th ed one. I don't like the overall direction of 9th ed books. Should I play chaos I will play either an older edition or get the rules some other way.

i'm done buying codexes altogether. The formatting in them sucks too much and theyre a pain to navigate.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

I'm not complaining, just pointing out that he's a brutal melee unit, and no, you can kit him out to have a lot more damage output than what loyalists can do. Also, 6" isnt exactly slow when the current mission design basically makes every game into a midfield slapfest anyway.

But with the number of shoting armies around, MW spam , a meq stated character with a milion of attacks is not going to reach melee, unless the opposing army is melee centric only. 6" means that against some of the top armies, he is never going to be in melee unless they want it, and that may mean your opponent thinks he can kill the executioner.

Karol wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

I'm not complaining, just pointing out that he's a brutal melee unit, and no, you can kit him out to have a lot more damage output than what loyalists can do. Also, 6" isnt exactly slow when the current mission design basically makes every game into a midfield slapfest anyway.

But with the number of shoting armies around, MW spam , a meq stated character with a milion of attacks is not going to reach melee, unless the opposing army is melee centric only. 6" means that against some of the top armies, he is never going to be in melee unless they want it, and that may mean your opponent thinks he can kill the executioner.

i don't know what world you live in where reaching the midfield with a character isnt possible

Daedalus81 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Any player can call Night Fighting in a mission that allows it, which is currently 5/6 of the missions in the BRB. If they do, Night Fighting takes affect Turn 1 on a roll of a 2+, and continues in Turn 2 on a roll of a 4+, then ends on Turn 3. Night Lords can guarantee Night Fighting Turns 1 and 2 with it carrying over to Turn 3 on a 4+ by taking the Terror Assault RoW. During Night Fighting everything is -1BS and Leadership and can only draw LoS out to 24". Barrage weapons must reroll any rolls of a "hit" on the scatter dice.

Some optional equipment can avoid some of the penalties: Augury Scanners (available to some infantry) and searchlights (most vehicles, not dreadnoughts though) avoid the 24" LoS restriction, Nuncio Voxes avoid the -1 to Leadership. Any Night Lords unit can take Preysight for 15 points, which allows them to ignore ALL of the restrictions, as well as the Shrouded USR (the major component of one of the standard defensive Reactions) and Shroud Bombs. Note that the bonus for Preysight is on a "per unit" basis, while things like Augury Scanners and Nuncio Voxes are "per model", which means my snipers can remove your Night Fighting mitigation by killing single models, while you have to kill the entire unit to remove mine. And only Night Lords can get Dreadnoughts that avoid the restrictions.

That -1 to Leadership makes it easier to Pin a unit, especially when there's a Night Lords unit with Fear within 12" for an additional -1. And Night Lords get +1 to wound against anything that's Pinned (also against anything falling back or outnumbered) in both melee and shooting. And any Night Lords unit with Bloody Murder (Night Lords only rule) gets +1A and to charges against Pinned units.

Let that all sink in, and then look at the mess that the 9th edition CSM codex handed to the 8th Legion.

That's all pretty cool and I dare say potentially meta warping, but I have no experience in the new HH rules to really follow through on that statement.

It's modified (personally, I'd say fixed) 7th edition rules Daed. I think you can work it out. But what it all amounts to, in addition to the stuff that I left out (like that A Talent For Murder also adds +1 to Penetration rolls if you can get it to proc. Or that all of the Night Lords special units, something that we don't get in 40k, rock. Or, most important, our characters get to keep their jump packs and lightning claws), is that the HH writers wrote the 8th Legion the best rules they've ever had. And the 9th edition CSM gives us possibly the worst (I'd kick it up to 4th-5th if it wasn't for what they did to our HQs).

Insectum7 wrote:Speaking personally, I bought the 7th and 8th ed CSM books, but won't be buying the 9th ed one. I don't like the overall direction of 9th ed books. Should I play chaos I will play either an older edition or get the rules some other way.

And I've bought every codex and applicable supplement since I started in late 3rd (so: 3.5, 4th, 6th, and 8th edition codexes + Eye of Terror, IA13, Traitor Legions, Faith and Fury, and the Imperial Armour Compendium). But if they don't fix what they did to my characters, then they can eat their codex for all I care.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


i don't know what world you live in where reaching the midfield with a character isnt possible

Oh you can reach or try to reach it, but a foot meq character is going to die. In fact I could say the reverse , how can you play vs eldar or tyranids or necron or bloody rose and have your dude not just not die, but trade efficiently. Same with DE, maybe it would work vs orks and ad mecha, espcialy if the ad mecha are played by a bad or avarge player.
And how I know it? I don't use NDKs, all my characters are termintors and they are faster, because they can teleport in.

Karol wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


i don't know what world you live in where reaching the midfield with a character isnt possible

Oh you can reach or try to reach it, but a foot meq character is going to die. In fact I could say the reverse , how can you play vs eldar or tyranids or necron or bloody rose and have your dude not just not die, but trade efficiently. Same with DE, maybe it would work vs orks and ad mecha, espcialy if the ad mecha are played by a bad or avarge player.
And how I know it? I don't use NDKs, all my characters are termintors and they are faster, because they can teleport in.

stick him in a transport, surround him with resilient stuff like terminators, apply pressure with other units that your opponent has to deal with.

Oh and if he does end up dead without connection, its not a big deal since he's 80points.... And you can kit him out where he gets a 2+/4++/ignores first damage per turn if you really want him to survive

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Spoiler:

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:
Okey, but what happens durning the talk.
Guy A I have 20 rubrics, 10 tzangors and a magnus.
Guy B I don't want you to use the magnus, because it makes you win.
Guy A what am I suppose to do then without magnus I don't have a legal force
etc etc

Let's assume no additional models are on hand.
The TS player pays for the cheapest HQ unit in his codex. Then he puts the thing in strategic reserve. And finally, because no actual model is on hand, simply doesn't bring it out of reserve.
Meanwhile the other player adjusts their pts lv down to match the TS players new total.

Karol wrote:
The whole talk thing works only works for people who both own and carry multiple thousands of points in multiple armies. That is an expiriance a 30+ year old may have, but not a teen. Unless they are using their dads or older brothers armies.

No, talking is cheap. Anyone can do it. You don't need to be a certain age. You don't need thousands of pts, multiple armies, & wagon train to carry it all with you all of the time. And you don't need to be super knowledgble about the game or know anything about the weekly world-wide meta. All you have to do is come up with something you both think will be fun to play.
Maybe that's equel pts. Maybe one side has certain additional restrictions. Maybe one side gets some extra perks.

Why does the player using Magnus need to compromise?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
Played two games against the new Chaos Marines and finally got to read through the codex.

I like it. For me, it harkens back to the 3.5 codex, but lacking the Lash Prince or 9 Obliterator lists of 3rd edition. I'm sure folks heavy in the tournament scene will find strong builds and place. It won't come from folks like me who only play once or twice a week.

So, to answer the OP question. Maybe? The Master of Executions feels a bit under costed: my first game I allowed that model a Heroic Intervention and then had my opponent slap my unit with 6 Mortal Wounds. Ouch. I completely underestimated its ability.

After a solid review of the codex, I'm building an Emperors Children army. It's the first Chaos army I've built since 3rd edition. I found an 3d print company who made sonic weapons fit the new Horus Heresy Marines which really inspired me.

GW got me again with a new release.

Master of executions feels like the dumbest unit in the dex right now. So many ways to kit him out where he's an absolute monster in combat. Played a few games with him last weekend and he was killing more than twice his cost in points per turn, no matter his loadout

And here we have it, people complaining about the Master of Executions. The guy moving 6" a turn.

Wait until you guys find out what the duelist equivalents from the Loyalist codex can do!

I legitimately don't know, what can they do?

They have a Bolt Pistol and Relic Blade (S+3, AP-3, D2). They reroll wounds against characters, and on a wound roll of six they inflict 2 Mortal Wounds and the attack sequence ends. I literally only use one because Red Corsairs. Otherwise, what Loyalists can do is significantly better.

No, sorry, what can the loyalist ones do that's better?

Depends the route you want me to really explain. Loyalists have three duelist characters off the top of my head:
Chapter Champion
Emperors Champion
Judiciar
The second one is not exactly generic of course, but I'll count it since it replaces one of the entries out right if going the Templar route.

The Relic and Warlord Trait access is just astronomically more. Ad I said, if it weren't for the Red Corsairs trait, I wouldn't even look at the Master. Meanwhile, every Marine chapter can make some use of the Champs even if not necessary for the army.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Depends the route you want me to really explain. Loyalists have three duelist characters off the top of my head:
Chapter Champion
Emperors Champion
Judiciar
The second one is not exactly generic of course, but I'll count it since it replaces one of the entries out right if going the Templar route.

The Relic and Warlord Trait access is just astronomically more. Ad I said, if it weren't for the Red Corsairs trait, I wouldn't even look at the Master. Meanwhile, every Marine chapter can make some use of the Champs even if not necessary for the army.

just post a loadout that outperforms the master of execs

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


i don't know what world you live in where reaching the midfield with a character isnt possible

Oh you can reach or try to reach it, but a foot meq character is going to die. In fact I could say the reverse , how can you play vs eldar or tyranids or necron or bloody rose and have your dude not just not die, but trade efficiently. Same with DE, maybe it would work vs orks and ad mecha, espcialy if the ad mecha are played by a bad or avarge player.
And how I know it? I don't use NDKs, all my characters are termintors and they are faster, because they can teleport in.

stick him in a transport, surround him with resilient stuff like terminators, apply pressure with other units that your opponent has to deal with.

Oh and if he does end up dead without connection, its not a big deal since he's 80points.... And you can kit him out where he gets a 2+/4++/ignores first damage per turn if you really want him to survive

But that's the thing. You said initially no external buffs, but that's what you're using. Meanwhile, the Judiciar has a 4++ in melee and won't allow any attacking until he fought first.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


i don't know what world you live in where reaching the midfield with a character isnt possible

Oh you can reach or try to reach it, but a foot meq character is going to die. In fact I could say the reverse , how can you play vs eldar or tyranids or necron or bloody rose and have your dude not just not die, but trade efficiently. Same with DE, maybe it would work vs orks and ad mecha, espcialy if the ad mecha are played by a bad or avarge player.
And how I know it? I don't use NDKs, all my characters are termintors and they are faster, because they can teleport in.

stick him in a transport, surround him with resilient stuff like terminators, apply pressure with other units that your opponent has to deal with.

Oh and if he does end up dead without connection, its not a big deal since he's 80points.... And you can kit him out where he gets a 2+/4++/ignores first damage per turn if you really want him to survive

But that's the thing. You said initially no external buffs, but that's what you're using. Meanwhile, the Judiciar has a 4++ in melee and won't allow any attacking until he fought first.

external buffs meaning : strats/psychic/auras. I don't count stuff that he himself brings to the table as external, so Relic/Trait is fine.

Karol wrote:
Okey, but what happens durning the talk.
Guy A I have 20 rubrics, 10 tzangors and a magnus.
Guy B I don't want you to use the magnus, because it makes you win.
Guy A what am I suppose to do then without magnus I don't have a legal force
etc etc

The whole talk thing works only works for people who both own and carry multiple thousands of points in multiple armies. That is an expiriance a 30+ year old may have, but not a teen. Unless they are using their dads or older brothers armies.

So simple:

If I take Magnus out, you take out the same number of points.

<DONE>

Note: You may have to pull a rubric out of the squad to use as a Lord if you only brought 1 HQ.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Depends the route you want me to really explain. Loyalists have three duelist characters off the top of my head:
Chapter Champion
Emperors Champion
Judiciar
The second one is not exactly generic of course, but I'll count it since it replaces one of the entries out right if going the Templar route.

The Relic and Warlord Trait access is just astronomically more. Ad I said, if it weren't for the Red Corsairs trait, I wouldn't even look at the Master. Meanwhile, every Marine chapter can make some use of the Champs even if not necessary for the army.

just post a loadout that outperforms the master of execs

That's a tough one to specifically do since there's a ton I'd rather take. Off the top of my head you can do I did a while back:
Judiciar
. Black Templar
. Warlord Trait: Champion of Humanity
. Relic: Tanhausers Bones
. Vow: Depends on enemy composition, but for that game I did Accept Any Challenge.

So he's always swinging at 5 attacks with the relic blade that does an extra mortal wound on a 6 to wound with the Vow bringing those main attacks to AP-4. Warlord Trait gives the extra attack vs enemy characters and +1 to hit and wound them. Lastly, he has the Bones to turn all attacks into D1. Couple in the core abilities he already has (4++ in melee and force opponent to strike last) and being a Black Templar, you got a lot of bang for your buck. That's a lot better than your "throw everything at the Master to make him strike at S10".

And I did this more casually. If I tried stacking everything I could on the Judiciar it's no contest.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
The formatting in them sucks too much and theyre a pain to navigate.

What?!, the codex is so brilliantly laid out. I mean GW 'editors' plopped the crusade rules right in the middle of strats, spells, and other generic rules splitting them from datasheets and weapon stats by like 20 pages.

That's soo great. Because even if you are playing Crusade, you still get to pass over those rules anytime you want to look up, for example; how many attacks Raptors have now, then check to see what stratagems (perhaps in both Legion specific AND generic potentially which are expertly also in different spots) only to flip past all the Crusade rules again to check on datasheet or weapon info. The genius of wedging in 20 pages (many of which look like the regular legion rules sections) that even players playing that mode has to skip over is simply amazing!

It's just sooo fantastic of GW to place the Crusade rules there like a commercial TV break in literature form to entice players to play Crusade... Or as a sort of flash cards when you are playing Crusade, and you have to flip back-and-forth between datasheets and weapons and the rest of the rules. Par Excellence!

I mean, I must be soooo stupid, and would have put the crusade rules either before or after the rules players would most commonly refer to during games, so the codex is easier to use. Obviously, I lack foresight of GW 'editors' to chuck a bunch of pages that most players aren't even going to use when playing that mode. Just so everyone has to pass over them all the time using the book during a game!

PenitentJake wrote:

Karol wrote:
Okey, but what happens durning the talk.
Guy A I have 20 rubrics, 10 tzangors and a magnus.
Guy B I don't want you to use the magnus, because it makes you win.
Guy A what am I suppose to do then without magnus I don't have a legal force
etc etc

The whole talk thing works only works for people who both own and carry multiple thousands of points in multiple armies. That is an expiriance a 30+ year old may have, but not a teen. Unless they are using their dads or older brothers armies.

So simple:

If I take Magnus out, you take out the same number of points.

<DONE>

Note: You may have to pull a rubric out of the squad to use as a Lord if you only brought 1 HQ.

Or they still use Magnus. Why should any player have to remove a model from their army just because the opponent has a hissyfit?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Depends the route you want me to really explain. Loyalists have three duelist characters off the top of my head:
Chapter Champion
Emperors Champion
Judiciar
The second one is not exactly generic of course, but I'll count it since it replaces one of the entries out right if going the Templar route.

The Relic and Warlord Trait access is just astronomically more. Ad I said, if it weren't for the Red Corsairs trait, I wouldn't even look at the Master. Meanwhile, every Marine chapter can make some use of the Champs even if not necessary for the army.

just post a loadout that outperforms the master of execs

That's a tough one to specifically do since there's a ton I'd rather take. Off the top of my head you can do I did a while back:
Judiciar
. Black Templar
. Warlord Trait: Champion of Humanity
. Relic: Tanhausers Bones
. Vow: Depends on enemy composition, but for that game I did Accept Any Challenge.

So he's always swinging at 5 attacks with the relic blade that does an extra mortal wound on a 6 to wound with the Vow bringing those main attacks to AP-4. Warlord Trait gives the extra attack vs enemy characters and +1 to hit and wound them. Lastly, he has the Bones to turn all attacks into D1. Couple in the core abilities he already has (4++ in melee and force opponent to strike last) and being a Black Templar, you got a lot of bang for your buck. That's a lot better than your "throw everything at the Master to make him strike at S10".

And I did this more casually. If I tried stacking everything I could on the Judiciar it's no contest.

How does strike first and last cancel out these days? If it helps mark of slaanesh, if not, mark of tzeentch. Assuming slaanesh, intoxicating elixir means the judiciar literally can't kill him and add on gaze of the gods for a 4++ and permanent wantons. In return the master drops 6+d3 attacks, call it 7 hits, you should be able to fish 4 MW out, and 2 more wounds. And with some luck that's a dead judiciar that turn, if not the next.