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What do you use for Viper upgrades?  A friend of mine is putting together an Eldar army, and we were talking about  what to put on his Vipers.

I was thinking stones only.  Holofields seem too expensive for something that is that cheap and can be glanced by S4.  Vectored and star engines both seem not terribly useful for a cheap, throwaway skimmer.  My friend is thinking about putting holofields on, to try to keep them alive.

Any comments or suggestions from someone who's actually played eldar before (at least in this edition)?

I'd agree; stones only. Anything else makes them too costly and doesn't add enough durability.

Putting anything more than stones on a vyper is like giving a sentinel an armored top. Just plain dumb.

Well not dumb, but statistically it is not a good use of points.

Open Topped absolutely murdered vipers in this edition. (especially with the changes to spirit stones) They would have been arguably the best gunship in the game otherwise. (especially since jetbikes have 3+, and since the logic for landspeeders not being open topped is that the passengers are 3+...)

Honestly, I wouldn't upgrade them at all. 10 points to allow a stunned as shaken (1 in 6 on a viper) seems pretty sub par to me.

I also haven't used vipers since early 3rd edition. (so take it how you will)

2 S.Cannons at most. They're not a good investment unless you're fielding 7-9 of them with S.Cannon/Scatter or 2x S.Cannons with Blackmoor pattern Warwalkers.

I'm not sure what a Blackmoor warwalker is?

Do a search.

Yeah, don't even bother with stones. 50% of glancing hits kill the vyper, so it's not worth it. Just go into the game with the expectation that any return fire will destroy the vyper, and maneuver it with that in mind (or use it as a sacrificial unit). Use the extra points to buy more vypers.

I'm a big fan of the scatter/shuriken cannon speederkiller vyper. The extra shot is only a few points more, and for a vehicle that often only gets one volley, it's important to get as much from that volley as you can. Also sometimes not taking return fire involves standing off at 31+ inches (like versus an AC dreadnought, melta speeder or ork rokkits for example), so the scatterlaser is better than the second cannon in those cases.

I've also looked closely at a pair of vypers with EML as an antitank unit. You need the pair because the single shot is too inaccurate to work on its own, and a unit like this would have the range and mobility to use terrain to minimize return fire. Then, in the endgame, it's a cheap and fast scoring unit. I haven't put together the models yet, though.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but I really like the bright lance on the vyper.  I find this to be a good unit that can be kept out of sight until needed and then used in concert with the other skimmers at a key moment.  The Bright Lance makes it perfect for sniping a heavy tank, and the shurikannon/BL combo can knock down light skimmers.  It is also useful for singling out an independent character that thought he was safe, but strolled a little too far from his troops.  Just my take.  It may be fragile and expensive, but it has its moments.

-Insert flame here-

I actually like the brightlance too. The speeder is fast enough to go forward and get into the half range to melt tanks. But you still need two of them (in two squads to not get shreaded by return fire).
This allows your falcons and such to be free to kill infantry.

Snipe Tanks with one BS3 Shot?

If you use the speed of the Vypers to get flank and rear shots, why do you need the lance special rule? How many tanks have Side armor >12 anyways? If you want anti-tank with sniping aspect, I would chose EML.

Greets
Schepp himself

I'm not a fan of the BL vyper, but I have to admit that I lost a falcon to one once in turn one before it had moved. Because it set up with fast attack, it got an angle on a turn 1 shot that I hadn't expected to be available, and then it got very lucky.

I still don't think it's a good value, and the range difference with the EML is a significant factor, but now every time I see a lone BL vyper, I don't feel like I can completely ignore it.

Without CTM the bright lance is pretty sub par to the missile launcher.

Posted By cypher on 03/22/2007 9:16 AM

I actually like the brightlance too. The speeder is fast enough to go forward and get into the half range to melt tanks.

 

Whats half range got to do with bright lance?  are you sure you are not getting confused with meltas.

BL on a Vyper is too many points for what it can do. The BL is one of the most over-costed weapons available to the Eldar and sticking it on a Vyper is not the best option one has available.

BL and 1/2 range? 36 inches is 36 inches ...same Strength and same armour decreasing effects...

Confusing it with melta i bet.

Either way, a better deal for tank hunting with the Vypers is the Scatter/ Shurikannons. Seven STR 6 shots on the side of 90% of the vehicles in 40K will glance them. At least taking them out for one turn if you roll roughly average. [I have to in my Corsair Eldar list and that's exactly what they do plus, they do it really well.]

I have to chime in on the side of the scatterlaser or shuricannon, but rarely take both. Vypers need to be dirt, dirt cheap so that you can dash them around the table with wild abandon, or so you can not worry about leaving them unproductive and hidden for several turns. Any unit costing more than 70-80 pts is hard to throw-away and a real liability when it's not making back its points (or trying to) every turn.

Also, people keep talking up Vypers as vehicle-killers. However, I've seen 2 - 4 of the aforementioned Scatter or Scatter/Scannon Vypers do a real pretty number on infantry, too, freeing up other Eldar units (like Fire Dragons and Falcons) to work unimpeded. After all, even MEQs eventually fail some of those saves, and the high STR of both weapons mean most of your hits will wound. Don't overlook this capacity of the Vyper.

-Adso

Posted By nikeforever22 on 03/22/2007 2:13 PM
BL on a Vyper is too many points for what it can do. The BL is one of the most over-costed weapons available to the Eldar and sticking it on a Vyper is not the best option one has available.

Its only overcosted if you have something that can do the same for less.

There are limited shooting options that can take out heavy (13/14) armor. Some of those pretty much come on a set platform, e.g  Spearlocks, Dragons, wraithguard, falcons, prisms. EML or BL is the weapon that you get a choice of on several units. 

EML v BL, the EML is a nice general purpose weapon, but it is simply not as good against heavy armor,  If I remember my maths right, BL will score 50% more hits v AV13 and 75% more outright kills against non fast AV13 (preds or careless hammerheads), It scores 200% more hits against Raiders/Russes, and 600% more outright kills. At the heavy armor end, only against Liths is the EML equal and hence better points wise.

Vyper and EML = 65pts or Vyper and BL = 75pts.

For an extra 10 points (15%) you get a significant boost in taking out heavy armor. Of the top of my head the only unit that can provide equal or better ranged heavy armor killing power for less is a war walker with SC/BL for 65pts.

There are other 'better' options to put it on, but they are more expensive beacuse they are 'better'.  Vypers don't compete with other heavy slots either, which is where most of the other BL platforms are. I personally like the wraithlord, he can have a second weapon and I just love the model. If I already had serpents though I'd probably twin-link lances on them instead, why pay 155pts for a lord/BL/EML, or even 75 for the vyper when a i can just pay 45pts to add twin-link lances to an existing serpent.

I wouldn't leave home without a BL or 2, but then I know that locally I will see the sort of targets it is better against than my other options. Even I didn't know, I would still like 1 or 2.

I've not had good experience with the BL Vyper. It was left from 3rd edition and I've been trying to use if effectively. I've failed nearly every game. I kept thinking I would use Guide with the Vyper, but I could never really keep the Vyper nearby.

I'm looking at fielding 2 with Shuriken Cannons all around. 12 Shots, reasonable cheap and you have to kill both to get any VP's as you can't get them below 50% w/o destorying both.

When I find space for them in my lists, I generally go Scatter/Shuriken Cannon. Going for side armor, objectives, and occasionally some anti-infantry work if I can limit the return fire. Dual Shuricannon is also a nice cheap option, but I find that the extra foot of range of the Scatter can make a substantial distance in limiting return fire.

I can see the reasoning behind the Brightlance or EML in certain lists, though I hate going single shot with BS3.

Well I have two brightlance Vypers, no choice as this is what I already have and to convert them would be to likely wreck them (metal weapons and pinned). They are far less effective now without CTM and at 75pts each are a bit pricy. I tried to use them as lurkers with mixed results. Given a fresh start I would take two shuricannons or a single scatter laser you can advance on a flank with a scatter laser or shuricannon and have better chance against most side armour.

Why do you guys (and girls?) think that GW decided to remove the CTM from the Eldar list?

Posted By der Wiskinator on 03/26/2007 5:02 PM
Why do you guys (and girls?) think that GW decided to remove the CTM from the Eldar list?

Because only the Young (Tau) should be able to hide their squishies behind terrain features. Eldar must've lost certain pieces of technology in that last Black Crusade... (and perhaps too many vypers with starcannons munching away at marines with impunity got on the little MEQ's nerves...).

At least they made other items cheaper in the list (jetbikes and shining spears).

You know, perhaps you could put a farseer on a jetbike and fly him around behind the vypers... it's a pricey option, but it definitely gives those BL or SCannons a better chance of earning points... though I'm not sure I'd do it.