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The folks I tend to play against are a competitive lot, so even though we play "friendly" it tends to get rather... cut-throat.  I'd also like to perhaps play in actual RTTs this summer, assuming I finish painting the army up in time. 

That being said, I have a pile of Tallarn models and some Cadians for a combined forces theme (anyone remember when the usual IG army was a squad of each type?).  Though that is not a strict guildline here.

Enough prattle, here's the list I'm working on:

Doctrines:  Drop Troops, Close Order Drill, Iron Discipline, Special Weapons Squads, Ratlings

HQ
HSO LasP/PW, Stardard Bearer + Guardsmen w/ Lasguns @ 86
Anti-Tank Squad x3 Lascannons @110
Special Weapon Squad w/ Demo @ 45

Troops
Line Infantry Platoon (Tallarn Models)
Command Squad JO w/ Honrifica, LasP/PW 3x Guardsmen w/ Lasguns @50
5x Line Infantry Las/Plas @ 95 each

Drop Infantry Platoon (Probably Cadian Models)
Command Squad Vanilla JO and one Melta trooper. @55
3x Drop Infantry with Melta @ 70 Each

Armored Fist
Squad with 1 Melta @ 70
Chimera with Multi, HB and Pintle Stubber @ 97

 

Fast Attack
2x Hellhound @ 115 each

Heavy
3x Leman Russ with 3 HBs @155 each

Elite
8 Ratlings @88

TOTAL: 1981

There are some question marks in there, I know:
Why Rats?  For Bugs and C'Tan.  Might not be needed?
Is the Armored Fist necessary? Probably only when I can't use Drop Troops maybe?
If I'm going to bother with the demo charge squad, should I try for 2 for redundancy?  Are they worth the Doctrine?
Is the list any good?  Can it beat both Shooty Marines AND Tau AND Assaulty Marines? 

 

 

I never commented about how I expect this to play.

The Command and first platoons are there for te standard Firing Line.
The Drop platoon and Armored Fist are there for taking/contesting table quarters and objectives.

I've tried to us some of the lessons I've learned by lurking here in that expensive doctrines = few troops and standard bearers are a good investment.

The Guard player I usually play against generally loses, especially in 1500 point games, due to lack of mobile forces. In the end his firebase is there, but he can't get anywhere else. I'm trying to avoid that fate.

Your firing line troopers are fine, but your drop elements need a lot of work.  The best units to drop are the units that can carry a lot of special weapons.  Command Squads, Special Weapon Squads, and Hardened Veterans.  Here's a little example of what I mean:  Your current drop squads are 70 points and have only a single meltagun.  for 80 points, you can take a command squad witha  junior officer and four meltaguns.  Quadruple the firepower for 10 extra points.  The 70 point squad *might* kill a tank, the 80 point squad *will* kill a tank.  You have tons of anti-tank firepower, what you need is more anti-marines firepower, and it doesn't get better then rapid-firing plasma guns.  (You will lose models to overheat, but if you are worried about losing models, then guard are not for you anyway)  Only the Heroic Senior Officer needs to stay with the line troops and needs Iron Discipline.  The dropping command squads do not need them.

The Ratlings are worthless.  For 80 points you can drop in a command squad with 4 plasma guns, which is going to do a LOT more damage to a big tyranid creature in a single shooting phase then those ratlings will in an entire game.  (8 plasma shots is an enormous amnount of firepower for only 80 points, by far the best purchase in the entire guard list)

Here's a much better version of your list:

Doctrines:  Drop Troops, Close Order Drill, Iron Discipline, Special Weapons Squads, Hardened Veterans

HQ
Command Squad with Heroic Senior Officer with Iron Discipline, Stardard Bearer + 3 Guardsmen w/ Lasguns @ 81
Anti-Tank Squad x3 Lascannons @110
Special Weapon Squad w/ Demo and 2 Flamers@ 63
Special Weapon Squad w/ Demo and 2 Flamers@ 63

Elites

Hardened Veteran Squad with 6 models.  3 Have Plasma Guns @83 Points

Hardened Veteran Squad with 6 models.  3 Have Plasma Guns @83 Points

Hardened Veteran Squad with 6 models.  3 Have Plasma Guns @83 Points

Troops
Line Infantry Platoon (Tallarn Models)
Command Squad with Junior Officer and 4 Guardsmen with Plasma Guns @80 Points
5x Line Infantry Las/Plas @ 95 each

Armored Fist
Squad with 1 Melta @ 70
Chimera with Multi, HB and Pintle Stubber @ 97

Fast Attack
2x Hellhound @ 115 each

Heavy
3x Leman Russ with 3 HBs @155 each

TOTAL: 1983

Thanks for the advice! I like the extra punch. I imagined the drop troops as landing in table quarters and then hiding in missions like cleanse, but killing the enemy might be a better way to own a position

In my original list I actually paid for ID on all the officers, just forgot to list it.

In a list like this, do you expect any of the drop squads to be able to score?

Posted By Recklessfable on 04/02/2007 11:47 AM
Thanks for the advice! I like the extra punch. I imagined the drop troops as landing in table quarters and then hiding in missions like cleanse, but killing the enemy might be a better way to own a position

In my original list I actually paid for ID on all the officers, just forgot to list it.

In a list like this, do you expect any of the drop squads to be able to score?

They will be scoring if you use them right.  land them together and overwhelm a part of the enemy army.  Guard drop units are very lethal but incredibly fragile, so the only way they are going to survive is if you can manage to wipe out all the enemy in a particular area so they don't have a chance to shoot back at you.

The second list seems much more viable and mean. I would also suggest dropping one russ for a bassie with indirect. The Russes are great, but always need line of sight. Adding a gun that can hide will reduce the chances of losing all your support in turn 2 or 3 to ubiquitous lascannons and their equivalents. I'd go as far as to say drop 2 Russes for 2 bassies. The russes are only useful when facing several horde armies and the HB are only useful when your cannon is gone as its a much better weapon than 3 HB at 4+. The 14 front is nice, but being able to hide your big guns is a much better option IMHO and if they do die its a few less pts for your enemies. Just a thought. I'd say 2 hellhounds are a bit much unless you face a lot of hordes. They're great models with great revised rules, but will likely encounter a lot of fire and may not be worth it against MEQs.

Would there be any value to splitting his single infantry platoon into two? It'd give him a second 8-plasma shot command squad. I'd also suggest removing the lascannon squads from the command platoon and maybe adding more line squads with lascannons, or better yet, autocannons.

With respect to the number of AV14 and AV12 hulls, I'm thinking that it is a matter of target saturation. 1 Leman Russ is essentially the same as zero if the other Heavies are hidden bassies. The Hellhounds and Chimera follow a similar principle.

I figured six hulls gives me more survivability. Granted, I might be wrong, but I'm usually on the other side with marine Las/Plas squads blowing things up, so actually trying to keep armor alive and useful is new to me.

I was at one point considering a pair of Bassies, but I was wondering how 2d6 scatter synergized with Drop Troops deepstriking.

Posted By Recklessfable on 04/02/2007 6:36 PM
With respect to the number of AV14 and AV12 hulls, I'm thinking that it is a matter of target saturation. 1 Leman Russ is essentially the same as zero if the other Heavies are hidden bassies. The Hellhounds and Chimera follow a similar principle.

I figured six hulls gives me more survivability. Granted, I might be wrong, but I'm usually on the other side with marine Las/Plas squads blowing things up, so actually trying to keep armor alive and useful is new to me.

I agree.  You either have to have three russes or none at all, and you can't have Chimeras and Hellhounds and expect them to live unless you have some russes to draw fire.

So I incorporated the Veterans changes while trying to keep my drop platoon.  I'm not sure if it is a good idea but I got attached to the idea of the platoon all dropping together.  Disabuse me of the notion and I'll give 'em up.

+3 Vets
+1 Demo Squad
-1 Anti-tank Lacannon squad (I'm not sure if this is a good idea)
-1 Rats squad
-1 Drop squad

Doctrines:  Drop Troops, Close Order Drill, Iron Discipline, Special Weapons Squads, Hardened Veterans

HQ
Command Squad with Heroic Senior Officer with Iron Discipline and PW, Stardard Bearer + 3 Guardsmen w/ Lasguns @ 86
Special Weapon Squad w/ Demo @ 45
Special Weapon Squad w/ Demo @ 45

Elites
3x Hardened Veteran Squad with 6 models.  3x Plas @83 each

Troops
Line Infantry Platoon (Tallarn Models)
Command Squad with Junior Officer and 4 Guardsmen with Plasma Guns @80
5x Line Infantry Las/Plas @ 95 each

Drop Infantry Platoon (Probably Cadian Models)
Command Squad Vanilla JO and 2x Plas @60
2x Drop Infantry with Plas@ 70 Each

Armored Fist
Squad with 1 Melta @ 70
Chimera with Multi, HB and Pintle Stubber @ 97

Fast Attack
2x Hellhound @ 115 each

Heavy
3x Leman Russ with 3 HBs @155 each

TOTAL: 2000 even

I guess trying to squeeze in the Drop Infantry platoon is a waste of 200 points though... especially since I have to give up three lascannons. Mostly "Thinking aloud" here.  If I dropped a Demo Squad I could convert them into another line platoon.  Then again, Doctor Thunder's list is pretty elegant too. 

Neither list cas counterassault unless you count the HSO's power weapon, but I guess there is nothing to counter if they die getting to you...

Couple critiques.

1) Drop 1 Vet from each squad. These are generally considered suicide squads. They drop in, smoke something and die. The 6th vet does little to change this fact and does nothing to add to the unit other than a few points.

2) As you mentioned in an earlier post, Target Saturation is a very good thing. I agree with your decision to avoid Bassies. While good, the fact that they're hiding means the enemy AT will be focused on less targets...
That being said, I would think about dropping 1 Russ and adding another Chimera either as an IF squad OR as a transport for a CHQ/PHQ. This could help as a screening unit for the HH's as they move up a flank.

3) Change your CHQ from an HSO to a JSO w/ HI and save 5 points.

4) Move a PG from your 1st PHQ to the 2nd PHQ so you have 3 and 3. I prefer redundancy and like similar units to be equally effective. Unless you are only planning to drop 1 PHQ.

5) If you are contemplating a 2nd Chimera, drop the stubber from Chimera 1 to free some points. 2 Chimera are better than 1 with a stubber.

6) Maybe put the Melta from the IF squad into something else. It's short range seems a poor complement to the Chimera.

7) Find some points to make that SWS a bit more effective. 2 Flamers or 2 Meltas would be dandy.

Overall, a good list as is. Just a few trimmings that I like. Hope it helps.

lot of the full drop troops lists look like this at 2000

JO-ID-4 meltas-85
Special weapon squad-demo charge-2 flamers
Special weapon squad-demo charge-2 flamers

6 vets- 3 plasma guns-83

6 vets- 3 plasma guns-83

6 vets- 3 plasma guns-83

JO-ID-4 meltas-85
Squad-Plasma-Missle launcher-85
Squad-Plasma-Missle launcher-85
Squad-Plasma-Missle launcher-85
Squad-Plasma-Missle launcher-85
Squad-Plasma-Missle launcher-85

JO-ID-4 meltas-85
Squad-Plasma-Missle launcher-85
Squad-Plasma-Missle launcher-85
Squad-Plasma-Missle launcher-85
Squad-Plasma-Missle launcher-85
Squad-Plasma-Missle launcher-85

JO-ID-4 meltas-85
Squad-Plasma-Missle launcher-85
Squad-Plasma-Missle launcher-85
Squad-Plasma-Missle launcher-85
Squad-Plasma-Missle launcher-85
Squad-Plasma-Missle launcher-85

10 points to put where desired.

this is possibly one of the most brutal lists in 40k

turn 2- half the army drops, with enough firepower to decimate a flank
turn 3- most of the rest drop, hammering down on the other flank, supported by the missiles from the other flank.
turn 4- stragglers picked off by any other droppers and missles

this list could be easily converted to a regular list with drop support, simply by not dropping 2 of the platoons and scrounging up 15 more points to give one of the platoon commanders an honorifica, in your case, it might do better to drop a platoon and special squad flamers, get the honorifica, and buy your tanks with the points freed up.

Out of curiosity how do you roll for deep striking platoons? Is it squad by squad or as one platoon?

whole platoon, I'm pretty sure it's in the FAQ.

edit: can't find it in FAQ, but I know you roll for each force org slot as a whole

Main rules, you roll for the entire force slot, even if they deploy/operate indepenently.

I also think it mentions it in the Codex

Yes, the codex specifically states the entire Infantry Platoon rolls once for all its squads.  Top of the page, second paragraph.

I had to fix my revised list, it was 12 points over so I dropped the stubber on the Chimera.  I'm not too keep on dropping a Leman Russ or going full drop.  This was a combined arms army in concept.  Gunline supporting drop troops and a couple of mobile units.  I'm hoping that it makes me less mission/terrain dependent by having the solid firebase. 

Full drop would be bad in a CoD or Alpha.  I'm also concerned that I'm taking away too much antitank by dropping the 3x lascannon squad.  I might have to shoehorn them back in, probably at the expense of my 25 man drop platoon. 

Doctrines:  Drop Troops, Close Order Drill, Iron Discipline, Special Weapons Squads, Hardened Veterans

HQ
Command Squad with Heroic Senior Officer with Iron Discipline and PW, Stardard Bearer + 3 Guardsmen w/ Lasguns @ 86
Special Weapon Squad w/ Demo @ 45
Special Weapon Squad w/ Demo @ 45

Elites
3x Hardened Veteran Squad with 6 models.  3x Plas @83 each

Troops
Line Infantry Platoon (Tallarn Models)
Command Squad with Junior Officer and 4 Guardsmen with Plasma Guns @80 (Not sure about these.  I was thinking of going Honorifica and PW for a mini-countercharge unit)
5x Line Infantry Las/Plas @ 95 each

Drop Infantry Platoon (If I need points for other things, this goes and would free up 200 points)
Command Squad Vanilla JO and 2x Plas @60
2x Drop Infantry with Plas@ 70 Each

Armored Fist
Squad with 1 Melta @ 70
Chimera with Multi, HB @ 85

Fast Attack
2x Hellhound @ 115 each

Heavy
3x Leman Russ with 3 HBs @155 each

TOTAL: 2000 even

HSOs are mediocre characters, don't go for the countercharge unit.

It's just tht I've been hurt so gloriously by them in the past.  WS4, I4 with 4 attacks actually does a number on terminators and assault marines before it dies unles they has an I5 chappy that simply sweeps your entire squad.

Ah Reckless, he is still only str3 or str6 with a powerfist. So he might drop one marine, or one termie if he is lucky. No, if you want counter charge you go with rough riders, or you stay out of close combat. Talk about a sweet unit. I have had a squad of 6 riders with a vet sgt charge a squad of 5 termies and kill them all with out a single one striking back. That is a 76 point unit dropping how many points in a single charge. Statistically this unit should kill


4.3 MEQS on the charge
2.8 Terminators on the charge
5.6 SOBs on the charge or GEQs
3.25 immortals (provided no orb in range, big iff I know)

Lovely numbers, but lets compare to the suicide plasma command squad, 4 plasma gunners 80 points
3.5 MEQs when double tapping
2.3 Terminators
3.5 SOBS or GEQs
1.7 immortals (they will get the will be back, unless shot down to a man)

Sure the models are dog ugly, but they are ultra killy. And ultra fast. 19-24inch threat range.

How you have that much success with your RR is hard to imagine. I gave up on RR and just relied on massive shooty to beat my opponents down. 9 times out of 10, my rough riders were getting kacked before they can even reach their targets. Drop pods, Lysander, crazy summoning pretty much guarantees that they die before you can use them. Or you try to hide them behind forests, your own tanks, etc. and either indirect weapons get them or your own tank explosion catches them. Statistically they can't even put down a 6 man squad of marines. 2.8 terminators? Big deal. On the retort your are going to lose your whole squad to the remaining powerfists...now you've just lost your only counter attack, and most likely if the other player was smart, the remaining termies are the ones with the donkey cannons. I used to be a huge advocate of RR, but in this day and age of: non-screening, crazy mobile shooting (rapid-fire), skimmers with a gak load of shots, SMS systems, and indirect everywhere...RR have finally become just like their WW1 counterparts. Has-beens. I'd rather spend 25pts on a cyclops, or move points around and take 3 hellhounds. 2 hellhounds are nasty, but three is so much better. In my IG list I run with 2 for comp scoring reasons, but my third FA choice is a Cyclops...great for taking down deepstriking units or drop pod units...and if they shoot it...meh. It's only 25pts....and they aren't shooting something else.

Capt k

Well, to tell you the truth, it is a very rare day that the rough riders live through a battle, and truth be told they are constantly targeted by anyone I play. They are counter assult, and must stay behind the lines, out of line of sight. They are fragile has heck, and a single indirect blast will wipe them out, they do have weaknesses. However, Too many times have I watched one uber squad or model eat through my gunline one unit at a time. The rough riders prevent that from happening. So what if they get blasted. Anything that would wipe them from the board would savage a standard squad, or command squad, or probably pop a tank, and the rough riders are the cheapest unit on the table. In additon they are in the codex so you do not have to worry about if imperial armor is allowed. Also, you do not have to get in that crazy "that cyclops can not get closer than 1 inch to my deepstriking termies, so you only get 1 and two partials" argument.

Alright, you folks have convinced me. I can just make the HQ a JO with Honrifica, standard, ID and hide him. The Platoon HW will get some special weapons I can drop that 200 point drop platoon also and with the points I get an interesting list.

HQ
JO w/ Honorifica,Standard Bearer @75

Anti-Tank Squad 3x lascannons @ 110

2x Special Squads Demo (Drop) @ 45 each

Elite
3x Hardened Vets 5 man squads with 3 plas (Drop) @ 75 each

Troops
Infantry platoon
JO squad with ID, 3x plas @ 75
5x Las/Plas Infantrysquads @ 95 each

Armored Fist
Squad with one Melta @ 70
Chimera with Mutli laser, HB and Pintle Stubber @ 102

Fast Attack
Rough Rider Squad with 6 riders including Vet Sgt and lances @ 72
2x Hellhounds @ 115 each

Heavy Support
3x Leman Russes with 3 HBs @ 155 each


Ok, the rough riders force me to sacrifice 72 points to the cause that dropped my vet squads to 5 men each and a plasman rifle offone command squad. It also puts me at 6 Doctrines, so I'd have to drop something to keep them. So this looks maybe too difficult to swing with everything else I want.