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Polonius wrote: Absent specific clauses in the contract setting penalties for missing deadlines (think late payment fees for rent), there isn't much you can do about a late supplier outside of suing them. Now, assuming the contract included hard deadlines (and few deadlines in manufacturing can be hard), you can only recover the loss you can show by the delay. It's not like when your Moons over My Hammy is late at Denny's and the manager comps you.
While I didn't think international manufacturing was like ordering at Denny's, it is interesting to learn that clauses outlining penalties for missed deadlines are not necessarily standard procedure.
Polonius wrote: The problem right now with plastics manufacturing is that there is only one affordable and reliable supplier, and that's WGF. Alienating them is not really an option. They are simply overbooked. Airlines do it, so do manufacturers. In a more stable market, SWM could get their money back, and find an alternate vendor, especially if the delay is "unreasonable." Right now? It's WGF or nobody at that price point.
So, if I am understanding this correctly it boils down to:
WGF 1
SWM/Backers 0
Polonius wrote: Deep down, you seem to think view Kickstarters, as being what they are treated as, but actually aren't. They aren't preorders, and you don't have a contractual right to anything. You are, quite literally, investing in a project in exchange for a return of goods. That's all.
When does a thing become something else if the perception of that thing differs from its original intent? More of rhetorical question, but if companies treat Kickstarter like a pre-order system and backers begin to treat it as such who is at fault for holding this opinion?
And to be clear, I understand how Kickstarter works. I also understand there are delays and set backs that occur in manufacturing. What I find problematic is the apathy demonstrated by both backers and project creators when these delays consistently occur. If everyone throws their hands in the air and says "Oh, well!" then nothing changes. The only point of contact backers have is the project creator. He or she is responsible for keeping backers satisfied--especially if they desire to conduct future Kickstarter campaigns. As far as I am concerned SWM is not holding up their end of the deal in that regard. The updates continue to be vague with no clear indication of when our items will be produced, let alone ship. The biggest news for this campaign recently is that Mantic's backers got their boards shipped ahead of everyone else. Joy.
With no legal recourse what are backers left with other than complaining and hoping the project creators listen, learn a lesson, and perhaps try to satisfy their backers in some other way other than repeating a mantra of "please be patient" which is irritating and down right patronizing at times?
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RiTides wrote: DarkTraveler, it does seem to me that campaigns that are just ready to hit "go" are the kind you would prefer... but I would definitely say that is not how this campaign was, or how it was presented. They were working on the renders throughout the campaign and weren't even close to having them finalized at the end- a lot was just concept art.
When you back a project at the concept art stage, it is much more of a journey... you either enjoy that process (assuming regular updates) or not. Personally, I enjoy it, and prefer it over "just push go" campaigns... it's the aspect of Kickstarter I enjoy most, seeing a project go from a somewhat early concept (although not TOO early ) to fruition!
RiTides, thank you for explaining that to me the kinds of campaigns I prefer.
Yes, I backed a campaign that I regret. I also thought the 6 month lead time that SWM gave would be enough. You know, I considered SWM's standing in the community, figured they had their gak together and pulled the trigger. I didn't think almost 10 months after the campaign ended there would be uncertainty as to when the majority of the boards would be produced.
I am glad you are enjoying yourself, though. Wanna buy my pledge? Then you could have double your fun.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/21 22:29:28
ironicsilence wrote: Its a shame too as when this KS first hit I was pretty excited about it but the delays have just killed it for me and in the end I just ended up making new boards instead of waiting for these. When they do finally come I'll likely try to resell them at as close to break even as I can, or they will end up in the closet with all the other gaming nonsense i dont use
The lag between paying for the board and when i would get it, is the reason i never pledged. I will buy some of the feilds and citiy tiles when they come out for general purchuse, or pick up a set from a dakkaite who has buyer's regret once they are in the hands of backers. But untill then I'm spending my money on other terrian projects.
I look foreword for when I can buy these, but untill then I'm building other boards and building terrian that has compatibility with the secret weapon boards down the road in mind.
=)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/03/21 22:57:11
Secret Weapon on Mar 12 at the moment the plan is still to have all of the tiles ship at the same time, which is looking like May.
Secret Weapon on March 13
WGF is willing to give me an update now - but I've asked them not to. Instead I told them to inform me when the final tiles were milling, and test shots being prepared. At that point I'll ship the box design files over so we can get things finished.
I'd rather have something concrete than more speculation, even if it means being in the dark for awhile.
And I know that Test Shots for the temple boards are on their way, but have not arrived yet.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/22 01:46:04
DarkTraveler777 wrote: I am glad you are enjoying yourself, though. Wanna buy my pledge? Then you could have double your fun.
I'm actually quite tempted by that, but if you pledged for a full 6x4 I don't think I have the funds available at the moment. But I've both bought and sold Kickstarter pledges before... it's a fluid thing, and usually when someone is fed up with waiting there is someone else who is willing to take their place in line! If you offer it up in the Swapshop, I actually think someone would take it off your hands. I did the exact same thing with my AvP pledge recently, as I just pledged for more than I should have on that
But this exact situation happened in the Trollforged Assimilation Host kickstarter (which I waited on much longer than this one, although have finally gotten a lot of my stuff, and folks are able to start getting things shipped in waves now ). One backer in particular was very upset with the delay and I bought out their pledge... it gave me a bit more than I needed, but it gave them peace of mind and let them move on from the project.
However, right now I just don't have the funds to buy out yours, but if you offer it up for sale/trade, with a slight discount, I think someone would take you up on that offer... as to them, the wait wouldn't be nearly so long since they'd be just hopping in now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/22 02:53:50
While I didn't think international manufacturing was like ordering at Denny's, it is interesting to learn that clauses outlining penalties for missed deadlines are not necessarily standard procedure.
Well, I don't know either, but even if they are, they are probably a relatively small percentage of the overall contract.
So, if I am understanding this correctly it boils down to: WGF 1 SWM/Backers 0
I'm not sure what you mean. I can assure you that trying to boil this down to binary, win/lose situation is shortsighted.
When does a thing become something else if the perception of that thing differs from its original intent? More of rhetorical question, but if companies treat Kickstarter like a pre-order system and backers begin to treat it as such who is at fault for holding this opinion?
That's a good point, but I dont' think we're there yet.
And to be clear, I understand how Kickstarter works. I also understand there are delays and set backs that occur in manufacturing. What I find problematic is the apathy demonstrated by both backers and project creators when these delays consistently occur. If everyone throws their hands in the air and says "Oh, well!" then nothing changes. The only point of contact backers have is the project creator. He or she is responsible for keeping backers satisfied--especially if they desire to conduct future Kickstarter campaigns. As far as I am concerned SWM is not holding up their end of the deal in that regard. The updates continue to be vague with no clear indication of when our items will be produced, let alone ship. The biggest news for this campaign recently is that Mantic's backers got their boards shipped ahead of everyone else. Joy.
With no legal recourse what are backers left with other than complaining and hoping the project creators listen, learn a lesson, and perhaps try to satisfy their backers in some other way other than repeating a mantra of "please be patient" which is irritating and down right patronizing at times?
Well,then by all means keep at the creator. But I think that when the problem is delays that are out of the creators hands, I'm not sure what yelling is gonna do. YMMV.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/22 04:00:00
If the Secret Weapons boards and DFG are all supposed to hit lat Q2... that's gonna be a lot of shipping containers filled with plastic. It sounds fishy though. I'm expecting DFG to get hit with further delays again.
GamesWorkshop wrote: And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!
Mathieu Raymond wrote: If the Secret Weapons boards and DFG are all supposed to hit lat Q2... that's gonna be a lot of shipping containers filled with plastic. It sounds fishy though. I'm expecting DFG to get hit with further delays again.
ill be pretty grumpy if thats the case, even more so if the delays are due to having to ship someone elses stuff (regardless of SW of DFG shipping first) if they actually hit at the same time then thats just rather poor planning on WGF if they cant handle shipping both at once. Then again WGF seems to not be strong in the planning department
I'm pretty sure their planning is fine. They got money upfront for products they'll deliver late and not have to pay any penalties for it. Sounds like great planning to me.
My warmachine batrep & other misc stuff blog
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Mathieu Raymond wrote: If the Secret Weapons boards and DFG are all supposed to hit lat Q2... that's gonna be a lot of shipping containers filled with plastic. It sounds fishy though. I'm expecting DFG to get hit with further delays again.
Everything is Q2... right up until everything is Q3.
kronk wrote: I'm so far behind in my painting right now, it doesn't matter if I get it tomorrow or June, I won't touch it until July...
that's my take on most kickstarters.
The one big exception is a terrain paint kickstarter I backed that was supposed to ship in November. Well, it was an early winter, the creator is based in (no joke) fairbanks Alaska, and freezing weather can and will ruin acrylic paints.
So the giant terrain mega-paint of early winter 2013 is turning into the Late spring mega paint.
kronk wrote: I'm so far behind in my painting right now, it doesn't matter if I get it tomorrow or June, I won't touch it until July...
Getting it in on time in December would have been nice. I could have painted it during my summer break. Still, being terrain, I could still paint it whenever it arrives, so each additional delay just pisses me off more.
Sorry, I have been away for a few days and let these response go.
RiTides wrote: However, right now I just don't have the funds to buy out yours, but if you offer it up for sale/trade, with a slight discount, I think someone would take you up on that offer... as to them, the wait wouldn't be nearly so long since they'd be just hopping in now.
Yeah, unfortunately I pledged for a 6X4 Urban/Urban Ruins set, but if May comes without movement on this project then that pledge will come up for sale.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: And to be clear, I understand how Kickstarter works. I also understand there are delays and set backs that occur in manufacturing. What I find problematic is the apathy demonstrated by both backers and project creators when these delays consistently occur. If everyone throws their hands in the air and says "Oh, well!" then nothing changes. The only point of contact backers have is the project creator. He or she is responsible for keeping backers satisfied--especially if they desire to conduct future Kickstarter campaigns. As far as I am concerned SWM is not holding up their end of the deal in that regard. The updates continue to be vague with no clear indication of when our items will be produced, let alone ship. The biggest news for this campaign recently is that Mantic's backers got their boards shipped ahead of everyone else. Joy.
With no legal recourse what are backers left with other than complaining and hoping the project creators listen, learn a lesson, and perhaps try to satisfy their backers in some other way other than repeating a mantra of "please be patient" which is irritating and down right patronizing at times?
Well,then by all means keep at the creator. But I think that when the problem is delays that are out of the creators hands, I'm not sure what yelling is gonna do. YMMV.
I don't expect Mr. Justin, or anyone from SWM, to personally do something for me in this matter, but if no one complains about these delays what incentive do project creators have for avoiding these pitfalls in the future? While I understand SWM wants to have the boards in peoples' hands and they are as frustrated as backers are at the delay (likely more so), I am still convinced that some level of mismanagement was conducted here either by SWM, WGF, or both. Either way both of those companies have backers money but they still need to be made aware that delays of this scale are unacceptable--especially given the continued uncertainty of when production will commence. If the dialogue between SWM and the backers consists merely of positive or passive responses then the problem won't necessarily be recognized by SWM and will not be corrected in the future. That is why I am bitching here, because being told to be patient almost a year after the campaign ended with no hard date for production and shipment of the product is unacceptable and SWM needs to know that. They need to pass that on to WGF and let them know that each week of delay is causing SWM more and more backlash from backers.
And it becomes a bigger picture issue too.
If project creators as a whole think they can pay lip service to project timelines because backers will be happy to eventually get product, then these overly ambitious, delay-riddled campaigns will only continue--because why not? As a project creator you can tack on as many incentives and stretch goals to your project with no regard for what those additions will ultimately do for the production schedule because that is money you are raking in now with little to no accountability to your backers later. Because Kickstarter.
I am not stating that SWM did that with this campaign, but when campaigns run well past their estimated delivery date I am left wondering just how much work went into determining the logistical side of a project.
So I will continue to yell and I hope others start yelling too. Because at the very least, if nothing else changes, the complaints keep a record. The internet is forever, right? If someone is warned off of a future project because of negative criticism of that project creator's previous work, then that would be enough. Eventually there will be some accountability and it may make Kickstarter better. Or not and things will continue as is into perpetuity. But at least my venting gets the anger out and lowers the blood pressure. That is also enough reason to keep at it.
Project Update #110: Production & Shipping Update
Posted by Secret Weapon ♥ Like
Hello backers!
I spent a good deal of time on Skype with the factory last night, and the news at this point is all good. So, let's jump in with some numbers:
57 - the total number of tile designs
36 - the number of approved tiles
15 of 16 Ruined Temple test shots left China yesterday, and I should have those on Friday for approval. On Monday they will ship me the last 5 of the Urban Streets, including an updated security barrier, and the 1 missing Ruined Temple tile. And that will be that.
I also received the packaging material samples yesterday, and that has been approved. I should have a quote for packaging on Friday, and we'll have that sorted next week.
Wargames Factory has already started production runs on the approved tiles, and they now have THOUSANDS of them sitting in the warehouse waiting to be packaged. The project is taking up enough space that they're now in a hurry to get it out the door, so I expect to see some quick turn-around on the remaining tiles.
I remain optimistic that the containers will leave China by May at the latest, but I won't be shouting it from the rooftops until said container is actually in Hong Kong and I have a Bill of Lading number.
At this point we're on schedule for Ruined Temple, but six months behind for Scrap Yard. To say that this is frustrating is a serious understatement, but we're in the final stretch, and the last of the milling is being finished as I type.
I'll have another update after Adepticon to talk about the delays, what happened, and what we've learned from it -- and how it will effect future releases. The news is all good though, and I have great confidence in the ability of Wargames Factory to deliver future projects on schedule.
TEST SHOTS AT ADEPTICON!
If you're going to Adepticon, stop by the Secret Weapon booth in the Grand Ballroom to see test shots from all of the themes. I will have two painted, and two un-painted tiles set up as Display Boards for each of the four themes. In addition, On The Lamb Games will be running demos of Brushfire on a fully painted Rolling Fields Display Board, and Mantic Games will be running demos of Deadzone on two fully painted Deadzone Display Board sets.
There's a slim chance that I won't have time to paint any of the Ruined Temple test shots though, as they're not here until Friday, and I'd like to spend the weekend with my family before I run off to Chicago for a week. You know, little things like that. Painted or not though, I'll have the tiles with me. The factory wouldn't even send me photos of Ruined Temple, saying they wouldn't do the theme justice, so stay tuned....
If project creators as a whole think they can pay lip service to project timelines because backers will be happy to eventually get product, then these overly ambitious, delay-riddled campaigns will only continue--because why not? As a project creator you can tack on as many incentives and stretch goals to your project with no regard for what those additions will ultimately do for the production schedule because that is money you are raking in now with little to no accountability to your backers later. Because Kickstarter.
Well, I'm not telling you to not be mad. I think if you are that mad, you should just sell your pledge, but that's just me.
Why I don't think people are as mad as you is because people want overly ambitious projects. Ambition is what kickstarters are about, and its why they aren't just glorified preorders. You put money where mouth is, and you run the risk of delays or non-delivery, and usually get some neat bonus.
Now, this campaign in particular was a bit soft (IIRC) on the bonuses for pledging, but by all accounts this campaign's scope was more closely linked to what was raised then most (meaing SWM couldn't really make more molds without kickstarter).
In short, what you are saying is that you want a very small firm to accurately predict production dates and guarantee delivery on a product that often isn't even completely designed. That's simply not practical.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/26 17:35:12
Project Update #110: Production & Shipping Update
Posted by Secret Weapon ♥ Like
Hello backers!
I spent a good deal of time on Skype with the factory last night, and the news at this point is all good. So, let's jump in with some numbers:
57 - the total number of tile designs
36 - the number of approved tiles
15 of 16 Ruined Temple test shots left China yesterday, and I should have those on Friday for approval. On Monday they will ship me the last 5 of the Urban Streets, including an updated security barrier, and the 1 missing Ruined Temple tile. And that will be that.
I also received the packaging material samples yesterday, and that has been approved. I should have a quote for packaging on Friday, and we'll have that sorted next week.
Wargames Factory has already started production runs on the approved tiles, and they now have THOUSANDS of them sitting in the warehouse waiting to be packaged. The project is taking up enough space that they're now in a hurry to get it out the door, so I expect to see some quick turn-around on the remaining tiles.
I remain optimistic that the containers will leave China by May at the latest, but I won't be shouting it from the rooftops until said container is actually in Hong Kong and I have a Bill of Lading number.
At this point we're on schedule for Ruined Temple, but six months behind for Scrap Yard. To say that this is frustrating is a serious understatement, but we're in the final stretch, and the last of the milling is being finished as I type.
I'll have another update after Adepticon to talk about the delays, what happened, and what we've learned from it -- and how it will effect future releases. The news is all good though, and I have great confidence in the ability of Wargames Factory to deliver future projects on schedule. TEST SHOTS AT ADEPTICON!
If you're going to Adepticon, stop by the Secret Weapon booth in the Grand Ballroom to see test shots from all of the themes. I will have two painted, and two un-painted tiles set up as Display Boards for each of the four themes. In addition, On The Lamb Games will be running demos of Brushfire on a fully painted Rolling Fields Display Board, and Mantic Games will be running demos of Deadzone on two fully painted Deadzone Display Board sets.
There's a slim chance that I won't have time to paint any of the Ruined Temple test shots though, as they're not here until Friday, and I'd like to spend the weekend with my family before I run off to Chicago for a week. You know, little things like that. Painted or not though, I'll have the tiles with me. The factory wouldn't even send me photos of Ruined Temple, saying they wouldn't do the theme justice, so stay tuned....
Nice!
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Polonius wrote: In short, what you are saying is that you want a very small firm to accurately predict production dates and guarantee delivery on a product that often isn't even completely designed. That's simply not practical.
"Accurately" is a loaded word here. I can accept a delay of a few months, and if given enough information to satisfy my curiosity I will accept (ha! like anyone has a choice in the matter) longer delays of 6 months or more. What you deem as an acceptable (and accurate) projection likely differs from mine, so I have a problem with your statement above. However, the trend I have seen in discussions about Kickstarter campaigns is people tend to immediately and automatically adjust the delivery dates by 6-12 months to account for "unforeseen" delays which makes me increasingly suspicious that any due diligence was done on the part of those project creators to accurately gauge how long their projects will take manufacture and ship to backers.
If everything is always late then deadlines have no meaning.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/26 17:53:00
"Accurately" is a loaded word here. I can accept a delay of a few months, and if given enough information to satisfy my curiosity I will accept (ha! like anyone has a choice in the matter) longer delays of 6 months or more. What you deem as an acceptable (and accurate) projection likely differs from mine, so I have a problem with your statement above. However, the trend I have seen in discussions about Kickstarter campaigns is people tend to immediately and automatically adjust the delivery dates by 6-12 months to account for "unforeseen" delays which makes me increasingly suspicious that any due diligence was done on the part of those project creators to accurately gauge how long their projects will take manufacture and ship to backers.
If everything is always late then deadlines have no meaning.
Well, they aren't deadlines, they are goals. It's not just a semantic difference. Deadlines are usually enforceable and external.
The question of due diligence is a good one, and it does raise the question of how much of a commitment SWM had with WGF for production.
That said, a spot in the queue when a kickstarter begins might not be there when it ends. Its one thing to call WGF and ask what their backlog is, its another to ask them to predict what their backlog will be.
But, yeah, I mean, delivery dates for Kickstarters are written in Etch-a-Sketch. If you want to make sure more people understand that, that's not an ignoble goal. That is the simple reality for Kickstarters: they can be delayed sometimes for years. If that doesn't work for you, don't pledge.
But right now, I have no reason to suspect Mr. Justin isn't doing everything he can to get these produced. Being mad at him won't help, being mad at WGF won't help.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/26 18:05:07
The big positive coming out of that update is that WGF need to get the boards out and shipped to clear space in their warehouse, these are bound to be taking up a huge amount of space so they now have a motivation to get a move on.
Polonius wrote: But right now, I have no reason to suspect Mr. Justin isn't doing everything he can to get these produced. Being mad at him won't help, being mad at WGF won't help.
And in fact, the longer he doesn't have them, the longer he can't sell them through retail. That isn't insignificant.
Its one thing to be steamed about a deadbeat Kickstarter. Frankly, I'd like to flay those losers alive. But SW has done just about everything right - except meet the date. They've been transparent, communicative and proactive, which is better than 90% of the other Kickstarters I've backed.
Polonius wrote: But right now, I have no reason to suspect Mr. Justin isn't doing everything he can to get these produced. Being mad at him won't help, being mad at WGF won't help.
Nor do I, and I hope I haven't given the impression that I believe Mr. Justin or anyone at SWM is intentionally hindering this project, but from an outsider's perspective and given the information shared publicly, I don't think this was a particularly well managed or developed campaign. That may be unfair to those involved, but again, given the information I have that is the impression I am left with. Anger is warranted regardless of whether or not it will influence the fulfillment of the project because SWM and WGF dropped the ball on this campaign.
Its one thing to be steamed about a deadbeat Kickstarter. Frankly, I'd like to flay those losers alive. But SW has done just about everything right - except meet the date. They've been transparent, communicative and proactive, which is better than 90% of the other Kickstarters I've backed.
Large scale manufacturing is one of those things where you don't realize just how many ways things can get screwed up until you're elbow deep in a project experiencing them all first hand, and both SWM and WGF (I love letters!) have been pushing hard to get through them.
You want to see a Kickstarter where heaping all the gak you can shovel onto the creator is justified, check out this dumb fether.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/26 20:40:45
From my perspective I paid to assist in the development of a product. Product development is full of delays.
Some believe that they just bought a product. I can understand why these delays would be frustrating given that perspective, I just don't consider it to be an especially valid perspective given the project.
Dreamforge should have made bigger kits then! From what we heard, there is a whole suite of products ready to go, in the warehouse floor since January.
GamesWorkshop wrote: And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!
) to fruition!
). One backer in particular was very upset with the delay and I bought out their pledge... it gave me a bit more than I needed, but it gave them peace of mind and let them move on from the project.
