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jSewell wrote: How do you run a reclamation legion with just zandrekh and lychguard?
Any opinions/experience with Judiciator formation with NS on the praetorians for the re-rolls?
I was just listing the units in the Deathstar to give a feel of the points value and what the unit is consisted of. Obviously you still need Immortals/Warriors/Warriors/Tomb Blades.
If you want additionally, the Lord/Overlord from the Court can go into other squads and even be Characters in their own rights. Putting Obyron into a squad of Immortals and deploying him on the opposite side of the board as Zahndrekh gives sudden surprise mobility that people will think twice about. Or grabbing Anrakyr as the Overlord and moving his Pyrrhian Immortals alongside the Lychstar for some surprisingly decent Assault support.
bloodoffi wrote: I had a game yesterday were I payed decurion with lychguard against the thunderwolf cavalry. He charged my lych with his Calvary and killed 2 out of 8 next turn 20 warriors joined the battle. I keeper them at bay for 5 rounds while my rest army won the game.. Also how can the decurion counter the flying circus tyranid formation?
What did he have in the deathstar? Even with Decurion, I would have expected him to sweep you fairly easily. He's at least as durable with a proper build and a lot more killy. With decent initiative.
This is why I like the Praetorians. You can use them to tie up the Deathstars since they are fearless and they are fairly durable as well.
Worth pointing out (because I missed it myself) that Orikan gives re-rolls for armor saves only, not invulnerable saves. So it's not as spectacular as it could be against AP 2, but I mean at worst you're rolling a 3++ (probably with RP). Not terrible so if they want to unload their AP 2 into that unit, more power to them
bloodoffi wrote: I had a game yesterday were I payed decurion with lychguard against the thunderwolf cavalry. He charged my lych with his Calvary and killed 2 out of 8 next turn 20 warriors joined the battle. I keeper them at bay for 5 rounds while my rest army won the game.. Also how can the decurion counter the flying circus tyranid formation?
What did he have in the deathstar? Even with Decurion, I would have expected him to sweep you fairly easily. He's at least as durable with a proper build and a lot more killy. With decent initiative.
This is why I like the Praetorians. You can use them to tie up the Deathstars since they are fearless and they are fairly durable as well.
I think it was pointed out that Zandrekh makes any unit fearless due to Zealot.
This conversation is the first really good argument I've seen for the boards and swords (and lychguard in general. 3++ rerolling 1s with Orikan is pretty great. The scythes version would get annihilated by the Iron Priest's ap 2 attacks alone. And the TWC blob has such a high number of stormshields that its going to win the combats every time. Its a lot of points for a 6" moving blob.
How does it deal with knights with the swords and boards? (by relying on a warscythe or two from the lord/overlord?)
bloodoffi wrote: I had a game yesterday were I payed decurion with lychguard against the thunderwolf cavalry. He charged my lych with his Calvary and killed 2 out of 8 next turn 20 warriors joined the battle. I keeper them at bay for 5 rounds while my rest army won the game.. Also how can the decurion counter the flying circus tyranid formation?
What did he have in the deathstar? Even with Decurion, I would have expected him to sweep you fairly easily. He's at least as durable with a proper build and a lot more killy. With decent initiative.
This is why I like the Praetorians. You can use them to tie up the Deathstars since they are fearless and they are fairly durable as well.
I think it was pointed out that Zandrekh makes any unit fearless due to Zealot.
While he does, I would rather have the flexibility to switch Traits when needed. And ideally I would not want him in the unit tying up the deathstar.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
luke1705 wrote: Worth pointing out (because I missed it myself) that Orikan gives re-rolls for armor saves only, not invulnerable saves. So it's not as spectacular as it could be against AP 2, but I mean at worst you're rolling a 3++ (probably with RP). Not terrible so if they want to unload their AP 2 into that unit, more power to them
Orikan gives a reroll of "saving throws". It works on Invulnerable ones just fine.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/26 16:12:59
Orikan gives a reroll of "saving throws". It works on Invulnerable ones just fine.
His +1 to RPs is wasted though, since I assume this is being run in a Decurion. Pretty hard to kill unit regardless. 3+ save re-rolling 1's and a 4+ RP re-rolling 1's.
Not quite a 2+ invulnerable with re-rolls, but not far from it either. Out of 10 wounds only 0,28 go through the re-rollable 2+ invulnerable. Out of 10 wounds against the Lychguard 0,9 will go unsaved. It's pretty much the same as the 'comped' version of a 2+ re-rollable, where the re-roll only succeeds on a 4+.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/26 16:40:04
Fragile wrote: Not necessarily. It would help vs ID weapons.
I'm not sure what you mean. Reanimation Protocols can never be improved beyond 4+, and the Decurion already grants everyone a 4+ RP. Therefore, Orikan's +1 to RPs is wasted.
EDIT: NVM the rules are quite clear. The required dice roll can never be improved to be better than 4+. So what I wrote above stands. Orikan's bonus is wasted.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2015/02/26 16:37:57
Orikan's bonus works if you get hit by a str10 weapon which would normally cause your RP to be 5+ in decurion but with a cryptek it's back to 4+.
That said, this deathstar doesn't need a decurion to work because of orikan since he gives them 4+ RP anyways(except vs Instant death) the only thing you lose out on outside of the decurion is the re-roll 1s on your RP which is a hit but depends on how you want to run the rest of your list.
Psienesis wrote: While that's possible, it's also stupid to build your game around your customers being fething morons
Fragile wrote: Not necessarily. It would help vs ID weapons.
I'm not sure what you mean. Reanimation Protocols can never be improved beyond 4+, and the Decurion already grants everyone a 4+ RP. Therefore, Orikan's +1 to RPs is wasted.
EDIT: NVM the rules are quite clear. The required dice roll can never be improved to be better than 4+. So what I wrote above stands. Orikan's bonus is wasted.
RP is typically 5+. Decurion makes it a 4+. ID weapon makes it back to a 5+. Orikan makes that a 4+ again.
luke1705 wrote: Worth pointing out (because I missed it myself) that Orikan gives re-rolls for armor saves only, not invulnerable saves. So it's not as spectacular as it could be against AP 2, but I mean at worst you're rolling a 3++ (probably with RP). Not terrible so if they want to unload their AP 2 into that unit, more power to them
Orikan gives a reroll of "saving throws". It works on Invulnerable ones just fine.
I stand corrected. That is exhibit B of what you get for listening to some guy on the Internet, which I fell victim to. Exhibit A of that would be my previous post. Reading comprehension OP
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/26 21:11:52
Way back in the dark days of page 30 I did some maths (which later was corrected by someone better at maths then me) on the survivability of Orikan + Lychguard.
Yeah it's also fairly easy to get a Deathstar going by taking the Royal Court as you can in fact take Obyron as the Lord, Orikan as the Cryptek then an additional Overlord. It's just to expensive for my taste though. Minimum is like 600 points of Characters.
So mimum 500 points invested and you haven't even hit the troop requirement for the Decurion. Although you could just go for broke and give both lords Warscythes, Phase Shifters, and Res Orbs.
This pretty much makes it unkillable via anything but a D Weapon
Overlord from Reclamation w/ Res Orb, Warscythe , Phase Shifter (150)
Overlord from Royal Court w/ Res Orb, Warscythe , Phase Shifter (150)
Orikan (120)
Obyron (120)
5 Lychguard w/ War Scythes, because why not. (125)
Nothing will kill this short of maybe a Lance formation all charging and they'll probably kill 3 Imperial Knights since unless it's a character you can allocate the D hits to the Lychguard.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/02/26 23:58:57
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
I've no idea who did the math and said they save 17 out of every 18 wounds but it's wrong. Out of 18 wounds, 1,667 will go unsaved at the end. It's over 3 times weaker than a 2+ re-rollable cover/invulnerable save (out of 18 0,5 go through)
It's still awesome, but you might want to re-check your math.
On another note, has anyone thought of using CCBs in a competitive list? It costs only 55 points on top of the standard Overlord, but brings a heavy weapon and a fast skimmer that can cause a few hammer of wrath hits in combat. It's pretty survivable to shooting as well considering you can assign some lascannon shots to the Overlord and take all the S6 and lower stuff with the Barge.
It also ignores the stuns (and immobilises because for chariots they're stuns) because of the Decurion Living Metal rule.
Does a Destroyer Cult Lord's Extermination Protocols confer to a unit he joins? I'm not advantage mining here, I just genuinely can't parse if it does or not.
I think the Orikan Wraith Star might be even more resilient, not to mention faster....and I think generally better.
Orikan
Destroyer Lord w/nightmare shroud, phase shifter
Wraiths
Destroyer lord has a re-rollable 2+ followed by a 4+ RP, and then a re-roll of that if you pop the res orb. Let's pretend that you are not in the Decurion (for list-building flexibility) but have the wraiths as part of the Canoptek harvest (I will add calculations for what happens when the Spyder dies also)
For the tanking D lord w/phase shifter:
Saves 98.6% of all non ap 2 shots, and 80% of AP 2 shots (if for some reason you don't want to LOS)
When he pops the res orb, this increases to a ridiculous 99.3% of non-AP 2 shots saved, and 90% of AP 2 shots saved
When he decides to Look Out Sir, the duty falls to the wraiths.
They have a 3++ re-rolling 1's, so they will save 88.8 % of all wounds coming their way when they are benefitting from the Spyder's RP. This is increased to a ridiculous 94.5% of all shots saved when the res orb is popped.
So clearly, when benefitting from RP and a res orb is popped, nobody is going to die. Ever. But let's say I am playing against someone who is smart enough to not shoot at them when the Spyder is alive (or I just don't use the Canoptek formation). Still, you get all the same numbers for the D Lord, and the wraiths are still going to save 78.8% of all the things that you can't have the D Lord tank (read: only AP 2). How much AP 2 is your opponent really going to pour into that unit when you are almost rolling a 2+ save on the wraiths anyhow?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/02/27 00:25:19
bodazoka wrote: Way back in the dark days of page 30 I did some maths (which later was corrected by someone better at maths then me) on the survivability of Orikan + Lychguard.
caelim wrote: With Orikan, you're going to take 1 unsaved wound out of 18. (94.4....% saved) [corrected]
[Assuming you're getting a 4+ RP, of course]
Holy crap! the unit has a 94.4% chance to save a wound! and it's an invulnerable save! geez... aanndd they are T5 as well..
400 points for 10 guys + Orikan
They are almost invincible! out of 100 armour saves you still have 4.4 of them left in the unit!
(effectively) a 2++ armour save followed by a 4+++ (5+++ v ID). What in the game is more resilient then that? <--- and that's not even in the Decurion
The numbers should not be that high. Rerolling ones gives you about a 26% to fail the armor save. And then you have a 42% to fail the RP roll on the 4+ rerolling ones. That should work out to about 11% fail rate.
changemod wrote: Does a Destroyer Cult Lord's Extermination Protocols confer to a unit he joins? I'm not advantage mining here, I just genuinely can't parse if it does or not.
That...is a great question. I think it should since your destroyer lord is a unit, so the unit he joins should benefit from it just like how preferred enemy is conferred. However, I don't know if there is RAW basis for that
It wouldnt confer because he becomes part of that unit for rules purposes but if a Special Character say Szeras, joined a unit of H. Destroyers from that Formation he would as it is a unit from that formation.
It works one way but not the other, there's a exact thread on this in YMDC regarding Harlequins and their abilities.
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
luke1705 wrote: I think the Orikan Wraith Star might be even more resilient, not to mention faster....and I think generally better.
Orikan
Destroyer Lord w/nightmare shroud, phase shifter
Wraiths
Destroyer lord has a re-rollable 2+ followed by a 4+ RP, and then a re-roll of that if you pop the res orb. Let's pretend that you are not in the Decurion (for list-building flexibility) but have the wraiths as part of the Canoptek harvest (I will add calculations for what happens when the Spyder dies also)
For the tanking D lord w/phase shifter:
Saves 98.6% of all non ap 2 shots, and 80% of AP 2 shots (if for some reason you don't want to LOS)
When he pops the res orb, this increases to a ridiculous 99.3% of non-AP 2 shots saved, and 90% of AP 2 shots saved
When he decides to Look Out Sir, the duty falls to the wraiths.
They have a 3++ re-rolling 1's, so they will save 89.9 % of all wounds coming their way when they are benefitting from the Spyder's RP. This is increased to a ridiculous 94.5% of all shots saved when the res orb is popped.
So clearly, when benefitting from RP and a res orb is popped, nobody is going to die. Ever. But let's say I am playing against someone who is smart enough to not shoot at them when the Spyder is alive (or I just don't use the Canoptek formation). Still, you get all the same numbers for the D Lord, and the wraiths are still going to save 78.8% of all the things that you can't have the D Lord tank (read: only AP 2). How much AP 2 is your opponent really going to pour into that unit when you are almost rolling a 2+ save on the wraiths anyhow?
It's not much different than the common deathstars with invisibility. They can't be killed by shooting. Ever. That said, Orikan, the Destroyer Lord, and the Wraiths all move at different speeds. The unit is treated like every other deathstar. It's avoided all game and beaten to the objectives. The only people who will fight it are ones with more expensive deathstars, and the fight will be in assault, not in the shooting phase. In assault, naturally the Orikan is killed with a S8 hit first because that'll remove all the re-rolls from the unit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/27 00:24:27
luke1705 wrote: I think the Orikan Wraith Star might be even more resilient, not to mention faster....and I think generally better.
Orikan
Destroyer Lord w/nightmare shroud, phase shifter
Wraiths
Destroyer lord has a re-rollable 2+ followed by a 4+ RP, and then a re-roll of that if you pop the res orb. Let's pretend that you are not in the Decurion (for list-building flexibility) but have the wraiths as part of the Canoptek harvest (I will add calculations for what happens when the Spyder dies also)
For the tanking D lord w/phase shifter:
Saves 98.6% of all non ap 2 shots, and 80% of AP 2 shots (if for some reason you don't want to LOS)
When he pops the res orb, this increases to a ridiculous 99.3% of non-AP 2 shots saved, and 90% of AP 2 shots saved
When he decides to Look Out Sir, the duty falls to the wraiths.
They have a 3++ re-rolling 1's, so they will save 89.9 % of all wounds coming their way when they are benefitting from the Spyder's RP. This is increased to a ridiculous 94.5% of all shots saved when the res orb is popped.
So clearly, when benefitting from RP and a res orb is popped, nobody is going to die. Ever. But let's say I am playing against someone who is smart enough to not shoot at them when the Spyder is alive (or I just don't use the Canoptek formation). Still, you get all the same numbers for the D Lord, and the wraiths are still going to save 78.8% of all the things that you can't have the D Lord tank (read: only AP 2). How much AP 2 is your opponent really going to pour into that unit when you are almost rolling a 2+ save on the wraiths anyhow?
It's not much different than the common deathstars with invisibility. They can't be killed by shooting. Ever. That said, Orikan, the Destroyer Lord, and the Wraiths all move at different speeds. The unit is treated like every other deathstar. It's avoided all game and beaten to the objectives. The only people who will fight it are ones with more expensive deathstars, and the fight will be in assault, not in the shooting phase. In assault, naturally the Orikan is killed with a S8 hit first because that'll remove all the re-rolls from the unit.
How are you going to target him? He can decline the challenge until he is empowered, and he is the same unit as the wraiths so you can't allocate attacks to him directly. Even if he is in base to base, you can look out sir
changemod wrote: Does a Destroyer Cult Lord's Extermination Protocols confer to a unit he joins? I'm not advantage mining here, I just genuinely can't parse if it does or not.
That...is a great question. I think it should since your destroyer lord is a unit, so the unit he joins should benefit from it just like how preferred enemy is conferred. However, I don't know if there is RAW basis for that
No. The Destroyer Lord becomes a part of the unit he joins and unless that unit comes from the formation to begin with they would not benefit from his Extermination Protocols special rule.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
changemod wrote: Does a Destroyer Cult Lord's Extermination Protocols confer to a unit he joins? I'm not advantage mining here, I just genuinely can't parse if it does or not.
That...is a great question. I think it should since your destroyer lord is a unit, so the unit he joins should benefit from it just like how preferred enemy is conferred. However, I don't know if there is RAW basis for that
No. The Destroyer Lord becomes a part of the unit he joins and unless that unit comes from the formation to begin with they would not benefit from his Extermination Protocols special rule.
This is the exact way it would work with Harlequins , like i posted it works one way but not the other, IC joins a Destroyer Unit from that formation, he'd get the special rule, Destroyer lord joining another non formation unit they wouldn't
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/27 00:31:51
If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated.
The numbers should not be that high. Rerolling ones gives you about a 26% to fail the armor save. And then you have a 42% to fail the RP roll on the 4+ rerolling ones. That should work out to about 11% fail rate.
Actually they are. He didn't even take into account re-rolling 1's. Chance to fail a 3++ re-rolling 1's:
I roll a 2 - fail - .16666
I roll a 1, AND I roll a 1 or a 2: - .166666 * .333333 = . 0555
.1666 + .0555 = 22.2% chance of failure, or roughly 78.8 % save rate. You are correct about the 42% fail rate for RP when re-rolling ones, so that would be .222 * .42 = .093 or roughly 90.7 % success rate
% of all wounds coming their way when they are benefitting from the Spyder's 
