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List below, long-winded explanation beforehand, skip blocks of text to see list:

Ok, I shot my mouth off and ended up challenging a rival of mine to an all-out throw-down. We've settled on 4000 points, 2 Force Organization Charts.

The Scenario is Last-Man Standing. In the respect that there are no scenario special rules (outside Deep Striking) and no turn limit. The person to wipe out every last model of the enemy wins. That simple.  This is a conflict that's been brewing for months, it's a rematch of the very first game I played but to the extreme. I must defend my honor.

He is an INSANE Black Templar Player that will, I'm sure, bring 3 Land Raiders (one of them a Helios), a Land Speeder Tempest, a full squad of Assault Marines, the Emperor's Champion, probably Helbrecht and Grimaldus, and a whole bunch of nasty business from Forge World (Talk of a Deathwind Drop pod abound). I am atleast saved a Super Heavy. I think. He said he would be nice and not bring his Thunderhawk. He didn't promise not to bring his Grey Knights, Witch Hunters, or Inquisitor Lords...

I'm a Guard. I gots men. Yeah. So what follows is my list that, I'm hoping, is optimized for killing insane ass Black Templar players. Any feedback would be very much appreciated. I want to beat him. I want to beat him bad.

 

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FOC 1: 1st Company Kemoanan V

Total: 2301 Points

HQ - 288 Points

Heroic Senior Officer with a Bolt Pistol and Iron Discipline. Retinue: Standard Bearer, Master Vox-caster, Missile Launcher, Commissar with Bolt Pistol - 168 pts

Lascannon Team with Sharpshooter Doctrine - 120 Pts

 

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Elites - 539 Points

Ratlings x 9 - 99 Pts

Stormtroopers x 10 with DeepStrike, Melta Bombs, and 2 Plasma Guns - 170 Pts

Enginseer with Signum and Plasma Pistol. Retinue: Plasma Cannon Servitor, Heavy Bolter Servitor, Heavy Bolter Servitor, Tech Servitor - 175 Pts

Chimera Transport for Enginseer with Autocannon and Heavy Bolter - 95 Pts

 

---

 

Heavy Support - 555 Points

Demolisher with hull Lascannon, Plasma Cannon sponsons, Heavy Stubber, Extra Armor, and Smoke Launchers - 205 Pts

Demolisher with hull LasCannon, Plasma Cannon sponsons, and Improved Comms - 205 Pts

Basilisk with Indirect Fire and Armoured Crew compartment - 145 Pts

 

---

 

Fast Attack - 235 Points

Sentinel with Lascannon - 55 Pts

Sentinel with Lascannon - 55 Pts

Hellhound - 115 Pts

 

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Troops - 684 Points

Platoon 1: 333 Pts

Junior Officer with Bolt Pistol, Power Fist, Grenades and Carapace armor. Retinue: Veterans with Grenades and Bolt Pistols. Commissar with Carapace Armour, Power Fist, Bionics - 171 Pts

Squad 1A, Flamer, Heavy Bolter, Vox - 81 Pts

Squad 1B, Flamer, Heavy Bolter, Vox - 81 Pts

Platoon 2: 351 Pts

Junior Officer with Plasma Pistol and Carapace Armor. Retinue: 3 Plasma Guns, 1 Medic with Plasma Pistol. Commissar with Plasma Pistol and Carapace Armor - 161 Pts

Squad 2A, Lascannon and Vox - 95 Pts

Squad 2B, Lascannon and Vox - 95 Pts

 

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FOC2: 2nd Company Kemoanan XII

Total: 1699 Points

HQ - 530 Points

Junior Officer with Plasma Pistol. Retinue: 4 Plasma Guns, Commissar with Plasma Pistol - 140 Pts

Chimera Transport with Multi-Laser and Heavy Bolter - 85 Pts

Lascannon Team with Sharpshooters - 120 Pts

Autocannon Team with Sharpshooters - 105 Pts

Mortar Team - 80 Pts

 

---

 

Heavy Support - 355 Points

Vanquisher with Lascannon - 205 Pts

Heavy Mortars x 3 - 150 Pts

 

Elites - 126 Points

Stormtroopers x 10 with DeepStrike and 2 Grenade Launchers - 126 Pts

 

---

 

Troops - 688 Points

Platoon 1: 338 Pts

Junior Officer with Plasma Pistol and Carapace Armor. Retinue: 4 Plasma Guns - 95 Pts

Squad 1A, Autocannon, Grenade Launcher, and Vox-Caster - 88 Pts

Squad 1B, Autocannon and Vox-Caster - 80 Pts

Squad 1C, Heavy Bolter and Vox-Caster - 75 Pts

Platoon 2: 350 Pts

Junior Officer with Plastma Pistol and Carapace Armor. Retinue: 4 Plasma Guns - 95 Pts

Squad 2A, Lascannon and Vox-Caster - 90 Pts

Squad 2B, Lascannon and Vox-Caster - 90 Pts

Squad 2C, Heavy Bolter and Vox-Caster - 75 Pts

 

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Grand total: 4000 Points

 

I opted for the Vox-net because I don't want my guys to run and I figured localizing all the leadership in one spot would save me in the long-run, as long as he doesn't die (I don't remember if ID goes through the Vox or not?).

I think I might be a little low on Pie-plates and Lascannons though... (those are the Forge World Heavy Mortars I'm using, like the Griffon mortar).

I also feel I'm missing out on either A) Enough corpses (infantry) or B) Enough Armor. Or both. I don't feel right about not taking every Heavy Support option availible to me. i absolutely love bringing armor, but I feel my amount of models seriously suffers so I've tried to cut back a little this time around, and I'm just wondering if I've hit an unhappy middle ground...

I know the 2 Hidden Power Fists in the first Junior Officer squad are probably pointless but I love those models and I can't help but bring them. The rest are all Plasma Cheesy Goodness. Like I said, I want to win.

I contemplated bringing an Inquisitor Lord, Seraphim Squad, Grey Knight Terminators, or a Vindicare Assassin, but I ran out of points with what I "needed" before I got to spend any on fun stuff. But this works too, since I want to prove that Guard don't suck entirely.

I'm also not sure about the inclusion of the Hellhound. I've never had a chance to use them against Marines, but I do love the carange they can potentially bring.

And if you've read all this, you are a saint and I thank you.

---

are we working with models you have or am i allowed to actually throw up  a 2foc/4000 ig list that will basicly murder anything/everything.

basicly i see alot of wasted points sitting around in your list, i think i could ring over 1000 points worth out of it pretty quick.

for starters your comand squads should all be in the 45 to 55 points range, basicly  a jr officer with 4 guys and a lascannon. I really don;t understand why people get so worked up over leadership with the ig, if your within 12 of a command squad you use there ld the Lt's have an 8, and really if a squad is testing for LD its already most likely lost to many guys to be of use anymore.

both hq sections of the 2 FoC should have 2 anti tank  3 las-cannon squads attached to them. basicly this lets you place what is  a heavy support option in the HQ set up phase letting you place them to hit  tanks.

the walkers are the worse place to put a las cannon, they die very easy, though you did do the right thing and did make each one a seprate foc slot.  my suggestion  for 45 points  put the multi laser on them and a hunter killer, they make less of a target still have an anti tank shot and still average  2 meq every 3 turns .

your chimera's have 5 shots    2 str7     3 str 5 for 95 points with no improvment  to its anti infantry use and very little improvment to its anti tank (basicly you can pin 12 armor now if your lucky) for 95 points take the multi laser, heavy bolter, heavy stubber, all the guns are 36 inch range   3 str 6   3 str 5  3 str 4, for 9 shots or 2 dead marines a turn, and it will still take down up to 12 armor.

the demo russ should have the las cannon and plasma sponsons but thats it don;t put any other upgrade on a tank, regular russ should only have the hull las cannon no sponsons.

drop the top for the bassy, its 12 armor max open top is not its biggest issue.

also the engienseer at 4000 really is kinda nice, but not his gun buddies, i would just field two naked techs for one elite slot to fix the 6 to 10 tanks in the gun line, two of them is under 100 points .

i would also try to find some plasma for the storm troopers with the launchers, or melta, i would also look at the vet squad option nothing says love like 3 plasma  a rocket and a sniper rifle, all at bs4, they can infiltrate or bring them a chimera AFV.

all IG infantry squad should use the following at 85 points    plasma   rocket/auto cannon   for a marine army i would take rockets.

heavy support should be something in the line of   2 demo russ ,  1 bassy, 3 regular russ, and if you can take 3 griffin mortars as a HS i would do that., as long as they still used the large blast temp and were guess/barrage ordanace.

but get back to me on the first question and i will help ya more

4000 points of guard??? How does this look...

1st foc
Command Squad:
JO + HI, ID
standard bearer

3 Hardened vet squads min/maxed w/ plasma or melta. deepstrike.

Platoon 1 + 2
J/O
-4 plasma guns

las/plas x 5

3 leman russes w/ hbs all around.

2nd list
Exactly the same, but switch 2 leman russes out for demolishers.

You'll have: 54 plasma guns.
20 lascannons.
over 200 bodies,
6 AV 14 hulls,
and some points to spare.

@ Narlix:

Hrm. Well you've definitely given me alot to think about.

Yes this list is based largely on what models I actually have. That's why I chose the Chimera with Autocannon (or any Chimera's at all, I hate the bastards but I have'em, might as well use 'em). Some units I bring because I stubbornly love them, like my JO with PF, vets, and Commissar with PF and Bionics. Waste of points, but so cool...

Some units were picked entirely because I've never used them, or hardly used them, and have heard great things about them (Ratlings, Stormtroopers, Techpriest, primarily).

But we've both agreed to use a rather staggering amount of 'Counts As', enough to make a Red-Shirt nervous. So I am very very open to suggestions. And anything I don't have the model for is just.. another excuse to go buy and model up a new model! Exciting!

So far I've made the following changes:

Dropped HellHound. I just don't think it'll be as effective against marines as I want it to be. Moreover I think I can just put the points to better use elsewhere.

Dropped the Armoured Crew Compartment on my Basilisk. Yeah that was just a "I have the model, I want to use it" sort of thing. He never gets shot anyways, and if he does, he dies.

Dropped the Vox-net entirely. Added ID to all officers instead, this equates to roughly 55 points back.

Dropped the light mortar squad entirely. Things just don't hurt marines enough for the points.

Dropped the GLs on my Stormtroopers, gave 'em melta guns instead (that's the squad without melta bombs).

I've added the following:

Another Squad of infantry with a Lascannon

Another Stormtrooper squad with Deepstrike and Melta guns (so I have two of these now, and one with melta bombs/plas)

Cyclops from Forge World (Any Termies within 24" eat DEATH! This is largely a 'test' unit, I want to see how it fares. For 25 points it's not a big waste)

I did buy Improved Comms for my Demolishers simply because all my Stormtroopers (3 full squads now) will be Deep Striking. I want a little more control in regards to when they come in. Maybe 40 pts of Improved comms is a bit much though? However I bought extra armor, smoke, and a stubber for one because.. well... I dunno, i thought it might be nice. If I fire the sponsons that's 3 extra shots that might do something (unlikely as that seems). I bought the Armor and Smoke to keep it alive a bit longer, as my tanks seem to die very very fast (and he's going to be targeting them specifically, as he sees them as the biggest threat). I'm rethinking these upgrades now, but they don't seem to give me alot of leeway elsewhere, being so cheap. (20 pts total)

I'm curious as to why you wouldn't bring the Enginseer's gun bud's? 6 HB shots, a Plasma Cannon, a Pistol, and Signum sounds like alot of shooty nastiness to me. But I do like the idea of a Mr. Fixit scooting around in his Chimera patching up my tanks. I just thought that wasn't 'tactically viable', atleast that's what some have told me...

I've actually had alot of luck with the Lascan sentinels. Yeah they die fast, but they tend to earn atleast twice their points costs back every game. Though it's not uncommon for them to only get 1 or 2 shots off even then. I may go the route you suggested, I like that idea alot. They always die anyways...

I used to bring Hardened vets every game. They've never done anything but waste points. Infiltration just means the enemy landraiders /assault teams just have a roadblock near their depolyment zone that gives them an extra d6 movement after they slaughter my squad. I've since stopped even considering them. But with 4000 on the table infiltration might be pretty useless, and they'd have to deploy with the regular squads. So I am actually reconsidering bringing them now. I'll have to play with the points cost a bit.

I'm working on making my army entirely Death Korps of Krieg, so I am reluctant to use missile launchers at all (and insist on the Heavy Mortars). That and I just don't have alot of Cadian Missile Launchers.

That all being said, I would love to see the list you mentioned, whether or not I can actually field it. I can possibly incorporate alot of it or atleast the ideas behind it into my current list. I'm always open to suggestions. I've got awhile before this actually happens (awaiting a shipment from ForgeWorld) so I'll constantly be tweaking the list until the day.

@ rryannn:

That's not a bad looking list. I think I'm going to readjust some of my regular squads to look a little more uniform, like that. I'm not sure what I was thinking with the Autocannons...

He's going to be Deepstriking and using Assualt Squads alot, plus running his Land Raiders at me at full speed to vomit a mass of Termies in my face, so I don't expect to be range fighting alot. Thus I brought Demolishers and HBs to blast things up close, before they can charge me.

 

Thank ya both for your input so far.

i made a mistake with the tech priest, i though his fix the tank die roll was on a 4+ like the tech marines, but its 6 plus. so you need 4 tech servitors with him to make him work right.

i can resepct the desire not to use rocket launchers on the army, and the death korps auto cannons are the best looking heavy they have really. ( not that any of them are bad looking). I just wish i could afford to switch my  rambo wannabes over to them.

basicly i will use the list im about to post to point a few things out. there are 8 pie plates in it.  5 of which are barrage so the enemy has to come to you. don;t deep strike or inffy with any of it set it up tight on the table. if something deep strikes, be it a skimmer, termmies, marines, necrons, or a  bloody monolith, its going to die. with 22 las cannons, 17 plasma, 5 melta, 13 auto cannon, 6 multi laser, 5 heavy bolters, 3 heavy stubbers, 1 storm bolter, 10 sniper rifles, and over 173 las guns.  the point is to set up where no matter where they come in 7 squads and 4 las cannons should be able to see them to mow them down. the walkers should use there scout move to  shoot at the tanks first turn. keep the army tight and close, the shear amount of fire you can get out of it in one turn will scare even the most shootie tau army.

Now a few things in the list i put in cause you requested them, some  like the auto cannon for price to effect to look, The one thing i did do was leave all the charcters naked basicly. no one really knows if that power fist has a battery,  ect ect. basicly in my group models can  have stuff on them they don;t have, but we typically tell each other whats every one is wearing anyway. some things just don;t model well ( melta bombs, termie honors,  deamon gifts)  but any way. so i know the commie and officer models your talking about =). basicly the only thing im a little iffy on in the list is the commissar, but i have 40 points left over and couldn't find anything i wanted to spend it on really.

 

FOC 1

 

HQ

 

65 – JR Officer squad with Las cannon

110 – Anti tank squad 3 Las cannon

110 – Anti tank squad 3 Las cannon

 

ELITE

 

120 – 10 storm troopers, 2 plasma

120 – 10 storm troopers, 2 plasma

110 – 10 ratling snipers

 

TROOP

 

65 – JR Office squad with Las Cannon

85 – 10 guardsmen plasma, Auto cannon

85 – 10 guardsmen plasma, Auto cannon

 

65 – JR Office squad with Las Cannon

85 – 10 guardsmen plasma, Auto cannon

85 – 10 guardsmen plasma, Auto cannon

 

65 – JR Office squad with Las Cannon

85 – 10 guardsmen plasma, Auto cannon

85 – 10 guardsmen plasma, Auto cannon

 

 

85 – 10 armor fist guardsmen, melta gun, Auto cannon

95- Chimera, multi laser, heavy bolter, heavy stubber

 

FAST ATTACK

 

55 – sentinel, multi laser, hunter killer missile

55 – sentinel, multi laser, hunter killer missile

55 – sentinel, multi laser, hunter killer missile

 

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

 

150 – 3 heavy mortars

125 – basilisk with indirect

125 – basilisk with indirect

 

 

FOC 2

 

HQ

 

65 – JR Officer squad with Las cannon

110 – Anti tank squad 3 Las cannon

110 – Anti tank squad 3 Las cannon

40 – commissars

 

ELITE

 

120 – 10 storm troopers, 2 melta

145 – 9 veterans and 1 Sgt with storm bolter, 3 plasma, 1 Las cannon

 

 

TROOP

 

65 – JR Office squad with Las Cannon

85 – 10 guardsmen plasma, Auto cannon

85 – 10 guardsmen plasma, Auto cannon

 

65 – JR Office squad with Las Cannon

85 – 10 guardsmen plasma, Auto cannon

85 – 10 guardsmen plasma, Auto cannon

 

 

85 – 10 armor fist guardsmen, melta gun, Auto cannon

95- Chimera, multi laser, heavy bolter, heavy stubber

 

 

85 – 10 armor fist guardsmen, melta gun, Auto cannon

95- Chimera, multi laser, heavy bolter, heavy stubber

 

FAST ATTACK

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

 

155 – Leman Russ Battle Tank, hull Las cannon

155 – Leman Russ Battle Tank, hull Las cannon

185 – Leman Russ Demolisher, hull Las cannon, plasma cannon sponsons

 

 

 

Just a quick note as both lists that have been offered up are solid.

I wouldnt want all my lascannons in AT batteries. Even at 4,000 points they stick out as easy targets. Only 6 wounds and 3 lascannons go down. If you switch the lascannons into the line squads they become much tougher. If you really want to use fire support squads I'd suggest autocannons. They're less of a target while still packing a punch against infantry or light vehicles/skimmers. So just switch the lascannons in the line squads so they dont die as fast.

For your HQ make sure you take a JO w/ HI, ID and a standard. You'll need the HQ boost and rerollable goodness is way better than gaurdsmen's crap stat leadership value. To this end, dont put direct fire weapons into your HQ. They should be hiding. I used to put lascannons into HQs as a way to get mroe cheap guns but they are the best targets for the enemy to shoot; once they die the whole army runs away pretty easily. Try to hide them so they live longer. Giving them guns will just tempt you to expose them.

For platoon HQs I'd use plasma or flamers instead of lascannons. Sure lascannons are good, but small platoon HQ's just scream counter charge. At 4k points he's bound to get to your lines so use the platoon HQs to shoot him up w/ 4 plasma or flamers then charger him. Alternatively, you can deep strike them to be a nussance or give them melta's to try and pop tanks via deepstrike.

Vets are better than stormies. I love stormies, but they're not worth the cost. For 75 points you can get 3 plasma or 3 melta's in a dropping hardened vet squad. Same BS as stormies and more guns for the same price (2 vs 3). Sure the storm troopers have better armor but as dropping squads they are going to die. 4+, 5+, 6 man, 10 man, they are going to die. Keep them cheap and give them lots of guns so they take something with them before they get pummelled.

The only thing not being advocated that I'd add are Rough Riders. For 66 points with lances they are incredible. As counter charge they can acutally do damage to marines. Sure they wont last in combat, but even 6 of them will kill meqs on the charge and tie them up for a turn until you can shoot them again. Very devestating unit if ignored. If he's deepstriking you wont even have to move them around too much, just charge right in. Really cheap and you're not using your fast slots for anything. Plus cool modeling opportunities to pick random mounts for them, my goons ride spiders.

I really do like that list... That's how I want to play guard, a ball of shooty death you can't even get near. I've been playing them too much like a Blitzkrieg army. Take the table center with your armor and move the infantry in. This usually has me over extending, too spread out, and every single element exposed. The armor too far out gets plinked, the fast units, sentinels and Chimeras in the flanks get eaten up, and then there's just a massacre as they eat their way through the soft chewy guard in the center. This is much better, cluster up and pray to god he doesn't get all his deepstrikes in one turn...

I think I'm going to incorporate alot of that list into my own.

I think I may have been underestimating the Leman Russ again, but I tend to forget they have a marine killer fitted to them...

The only thing I don't like is a lack concentration for the Plasma, I usually like to have them seperate from my LCans so I can rapid-fire (suicide) them into heavy infantry and keep the Lcans free to hit the tanks. I think I'll maybe make half my JO's naked with Lascannons like you said and half Plasma toters (I appreciate the advice on that one, I never know what to do with my JOs, and I'm always tempted to kit em out)

Oh and just to note your numbers are a bit off on the Chimera. It's 97 points (H. Stubber being 12). That's why I hate stubbers, always gumming up my perfect round numbers...

 

Once again, many thanks. There will be much Black Templar death in the very near future. For the Backbone of the Imperium!

Posted By Sandal_Bandit on 05/10/2007 1:54 PM
 my goons ride spiders.

Quite possibly the best thing I'll get out of this thread. That's hillarious, haha.

Not sure how exactly you are taking the high ground, middle of the board, w/e. Guard are pretty static. Even when I field mech gaurd the chimera's just a weak pred that sit and shoot all day, rarely will I transport anything.

If you do want more mobility you can go dropping guard. I guess that's not really mobility as once you've dropped you dont move too much. But hey, at least you can drop on objectives and get some VPs. For mobility tanks are your best bet. The russes will move a little bit and you can grab hellhounds too. Their flamers will work better on non-meqs admittedly, but they are big templates that can hit lots of marines. Plus for 115 poitns they're pretty cheap tanks.

The only reason I say no to lascannons in the platoon HQs is because they are so fragile. Plus you should have enough lascannons. If you pull the autocannons from the line squads and put them into fire support squads instead you've got nearly 12 lascannons already. Against BT you souldnt need that many lascannons. BT are usually foot slogging or dropping so your russes will do most of the work on the infantry. Lascannons will take down the land raiders, but he'll only have a couple of those anyways. I just dont see the justification for another lascannon when you've already got so many. Platoon HQs are a unique place to stick a whole bunch of spec weapons. 4 plasma is great against meqs esp if you drop them to get them within rapid fire range. Basically I think that you're going to need all the plasma/flamers/ meltas you can get as opposed to just another single shot lascannon. But your call.

I'd just reiterate Rough riders if he's playing BT. They love to hit massive squads and tie them up for a while. Most of his squads will be very large 15-20 men so anything you can throw at them to hold them for a turn will tie up a large number of points. Just make sure you position your guys carefully so he cant kill them all in one combat. You want him cleaning up your guys after exactly 2 combats so you can shoot him up then sacrifice another similarly sized squad, but of course you know this.

Spiders are fun. My guard are a bit of an odd looking bunch. Fluff/ backstory wise they are dark mechanius so lots of dark robes and odd metallic bits (lots of necron parts). As they're my second army and gaurd have tons of models I wanted to do them cheaply so they're based off the battle for skull pass. I traded away the dwarves for more gobins and after some severe converting made the goblins into grunt troops. Really cheap way to get 120ish infantry if you dont mind midget gaurdsmen and lots of converting. Spiders came with so they seemed like a good way to make 30ish rough riders. Never used more that 12 in a game (2 units of 6) so seems like a waste but they look cool. Really cheap guard anyways, bout $60 for all the infantry and I scratch built the tanks.

Posted By Sandal_Bandit on 05/10/2007 2:42 PM

The only reason I say no to lascannons in the platoon HQs is because they are so fragile. Plus you should have enough lascannons. If you pull the autocannons from the line squads and put them into fire support squads instead you've got nearly 12 lascannons already. Against BT you souldnt need that many lascannons. BT are usually foot slogging or dropping so your russes will do most of the work on the infantry. Lascannons will take down the land raiders, but he'll only have a couple of those anyways. I just dont see the justification for another lascannon when you've already got so many. Platoon HQs are a unique place to stick a whole bunch of spec weapons. 4 plasma is great against meqs esp if you drop them to get them within rapid fire range. Basically I think that you're going to need all the plasma/flamers/ meltas you can get as opposed to just another single shot lascannon. But your call.

There is a reason to my madness with the las-cannons in at squads and with the officers. to shoot at a tank there is no LD test, you can shoot though your own troops. basicly it comes down to this it puts all the anti tank into small hard to isolate  squads behind the larger 10 man units. the ten man units in the current set up will be shooting at the infantry so most likely the nearest unit so no LD needed.  I would also point out that to swap tha auto cannons and las cannons around, you would end up paying  over  60 points more in the list.  the las cannon is 25 point in either place, the  auto cannon is 5 points more a pop in the support squad. this also make your enemy have to clear out squads and make ld test to even think about shooting at the las cannons.

4 plasma in a officer squad and one las cannon will kill and equal number of MeQ in 6 round per a point spent, the las cannon on the other hand will also  normally get 1 tank. you have to  think on average a plasma gun won;t shoot till turn 3 normally ( give or take drop, inffy, ect) and  4 plasma guns normally only get one round to shoot, after that your down to 1 gun from over heat and you have no throw away troops where you have 3 with the las cannon. las cannons also insta kill t4 guys, the plasma don't.

Now don;t get me wrong Plasma is really the best special weapon in the game and a bargin in the ig army at 10 points a pop. The trick  to the IG though is getting the most  heavy/specials into the list at the least number of points with the most number of throw away zombi... err guardsmen to take the fire ( well after the install of 3 or more pie plate launchers). the more guardsmen to throw away the more flashlights you also get , on average  70 shots of las gun fire will kill 5 termies, but thats 45 throw away grunts to mass that much. the above set up also wastes the least amount of shoots to kill tanks while massing shots against infantry units.

here is another way to look at it if the las cannons were in the squads you lose 16 las gun shots and 2 plasma. if the las cannon is in the officer squad you lose 8 las gun shots for the same number of las cannon shots. the anti tank squads only lose 6 las gun shots for 3 las cannon shots. the officers and hq squads also go down in a better phase to hunt tanks or kill termies before thay can bring assault cannons to bear.

I will also again say that leadership dosen;t matter if an ig squad is takeing a ld test from shooting or close combat there are only going to be 2 or 3 of them left any way and they will pass a test on an 8 on average. and really nothing should get close enough to assault you. and even rapid fire should be rare if you can get the fire lanes tight. The only time LD matters really is if your going to deep strike normal guard guys useing the doc.

 

There is a reason to my madness with the las-cannons in at squads and with the officers. to shoot at a tank there is no LD test, you can shoot though your own troops. basicly it comes down to this it puts all the anti tank into small hard to isolate  squads behind the larger 10 man units.

I guess I dont understand your comment. Yes you can choose to shoot at the closest tank or large creature without a target priority test. But this applies to all infantry sqauds; it's not a special rule that applies to command sections or anything. Las cannons in line squads have the same targeting rules and restrictions that command sections have.

As far as making the las hard to isolate this is not true. Lascannons in AT squards are far easier to kill. THey have 6 wounds to knock out all 3 las versus 30 wounds if they were in line squads. Arguing that you can screen them behind line squads is a poor arguement. If it's a BT player he's shooting with tanks anyways and target priority is irrelevant.

Sure you pay more points for autocannons, but 5 points is nothing compared to the extra 8 ablative wounds that you get for each lascannon, they are way more resilient.

Losing lasguns is a bad arguement too. Work on maximizing the effectiveness and the number of your heavies, lasguns arent worht mentioning at all. Not sure what you expect them to do versus the potency of lascannons or autocannons.

 You're also wrong about the 4 plasma vs 1 lascannon, the plasma will kill far more. If you're deepstriking you should be within double tap range. That's 8 shots. Over the course of the game we'll say best case scenario and say the las shoots 6 times. At the same BS, with both having the same to wound chances and both ignoring armor I dont even need math to show that against marines plasma will kill more. Plus you're not going to shoot that lascannon 6 times and you shouldnt be aiming at marines unless there's no armor anyways.

Not going to touch the leadership comment in this post.

 You're also wrong about the 4 plasma vs 1 lascannon, the plasma will kill far more. If you're deepstriking you should be within double tap range. That's 8 shots. Over the course of the game we'll say best case scenario and say the las shoots 6 times. At the same BS, with both having the same to wound chances and both ignoring armor I dont even need math to show that against marines plasma will kill more. Plus you're not going to shoot that lascannon 6 times and you shouldnt be aiming at marines unless there's no armor anyways.

Not going to touch the leadership comment in this post.

some of the Issues i think are the groups we play in. my area is a heavy min/max   area. I also think some of its just a play style thing , i don;t think either of use are wrong really i think its just a diffrent way to look at things.

but i would say this about the plasma   40 points for 4 of them     25 for the las cannon  

you drop the guys   8  shots     4 hits    3 wounds    3 dead     3 dead ig from overheats next turn   your looking at maybe another dead marine so 4 dead marines for 40 points or 10 points per an MeQ kill
the cannon shoots 5 times in 6 turns, 3 hits   3 wounds 3 dead marines for 25 points ( on average) or 8.5 ( well 8.33.... but will round up) points per an MeQ.

its rought math but the las cannon will get more marines per a point spent which is what i said in my post

I would also point out that to drop them effectivly you have to give them closer order , iron dis , and most likely a standard,   while the las cannon need none of these.

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The 4 plasma is a suicide drop squad. They are all expected to die after one round of shooting. There's no need for any sort of ID, close order, w/e. They will all get gunned down. Your opponent is a fool if he lets you keep a squad that just fried that many marines or just popped a tank or w/e. I dont think in many years of guard I've ever had a drop sqaud of vets live the next round. Only 5 guys with 5+ save, they get nailed. So yeah, only one round of shooting is expected.

Lascannons are a bad comparable. It's not likely that they will get all 6 turns to shoot, you said 5, okay. And it's not 3 hits 3 wounds. Against Meq the cannon and the plasma are both 2+ to wound. If you're going to round your math so much then the plasma should read 4 hits 4 wounds. At least use the same level of inaccuracy on all parts. It should really be 20/6 for the plasma and 15/6 for the lascannon.

If we want to do points per kill, then you're wrong too. You cant just measure the cost of the gun, you need the squad too. 4 plasma is 80 points in a dropping platoon or 3 plasma in a 75 point vet squad, but they've got better BS. It's 95 points for a line las/plas squad, or just 85 points for a line las squad so they're actually more expensive. You cant just assume we've got naked guns running around.

Now granted, and contrary to your point, the las is more resilient. It needs the ID and standard with a close leadership bubble so they dont run away when they get shot, which will happen, and they will run away. Still, they have way more wounds and in cover, which they should be, they will survive against some shooting which the dropping HQ will most definately not.

Either way taking line infantry guard without ID, standard, and a nice leadership bubble is asking for trouble. They will get shot up, they will get charged, and you need the leadership so they dont book it. Not sure what sorts of experience you've had, but I've never met another IG player who hasnt felt the same way.

If you notice with the drop squad i gave you a second round of shooting with the one gun, so the math does basicly even out.

 

basicly i think its enviroment more than anything, Ld tests are rather rare where I play either the squad is all dead only one or two guys or it doesn;t do anything. if one is taken its at ld 8 .  if they do fail they are running though a mile of rough terrain to get anywhere and will normally rally. we also are a MC and tank/transport heavy  so more las cannons are better ( in my area)

 

Like i said i think its just a play style diffrence with our point of view.

Hrm. When I tend to play LD tests do come up, often. Especially since I tend to play against crazy bastards with weird ass Psyker abilities that make me take Leadership tests (Fear of the Darkness, Warp Scream, etc). I know that won't be an issue here, but I do know I'll be taking ALOT of shooting, and I'm usually lucky enough to make half my cover saves (when I say lucky I mean I have a 4+ save and I break even...). Either way, the option to have my squads run, or stand, at my leisure will be invaluable. So I'm still putting my Leadership bubble in, it just happens to be smaller, cheaper, and significantly less of a target. (Even so, he's said that, since the Officer in charge of this force is my Regimental Colonel, he's going to make it an absolute point of gutting him, whether or not it's prudent :|    )

All the same, I'm still working on the list, and this healthy debate has helped me make a few choice decisions already. Much appreciative. You're all helping to further the reputation of the Imperial Guard as staunch defenders of the Imperium. One "Two-man Mega-battle" at a time....