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Are there any missions/armies where this list will be at a significant disadvantage?  I am making no assertions that this list is ALL THAT - in fact, I want to hear where you see major problems.  I realize that it wont be optimized to any particular army or mission - Im fine with that.  Its kind of like if you lined up all the mammals in the world and ran an obstacle course - who would win?  Humans would, we may not be the best swimmers, but sharks cant jump hurdles.  We may not be the fastest runners but cheetahs cant climb rope, we may not be the strongest but elephants, they cant climb rope either.  Sometimes being well rounded has a quality all its own - lol

I know I have an issue with movment - but not in all cases.  There are five units capable of clearing the deployment zone.  It has 18 HW's, 75 bodies, and 4 PF's.

I realize the vet squads suffer from an identity crisis but since they infiltrate, I expect them to be close and to eventually be in close combat.  They have the guns due to flank shots from infiltration.  I didnt want to put a Vet with PF in the Commanders unit as this would draw an undue amount of attention. 

My plan is to deploy all 3 infiltrating units to one side and in support of each other.  My fire base with do the same in the deployment zone.  I plan to use the Refused Flank technique quite a bit with both sections forming something like an L-shaped ambush formation.  The Assault units flex to where needed most based on mission or enemy sittemps.

1850 Point Ultramarines Roster

Master: Storm Bolter (8 man SQD)
      7 Command Squad: Boltgun (x5); Missile Launcher (x2); Infiltrate

2x Veteran Squads (8 man SQD)
      Boltgun (x5); Plasmagun (x1); Lascannon (x1); Infiltrate
      Sergeant:  Bolt Pistol (x1); Power Fist (x1); Terminator Honors

2x Tactical Squads (6 man SQD)
      Bolter (x4); Plasmagun (x1); Lascannon (x1)

2x Assault Squads: (8 man SQD) Flamer (x2)
      Sergeant: BP, Power Fist (x1); Terminator Honors

3x Devastator Squads (8 man SQD)
      Boltgun (x4); Heavy Bolter (x4)

Total Roster Cost: 1850

ok what is it with every one taking missile launchers + other heavy weopons and infiltrate upgrades in the same squad i mean seriously its useless ur missile launchers and other heavy weopons have a 48 inch range if ur going to take infiltrate put meltas or plasma guns in the squads

Franki, it's not the range that makes the infiltrating heavy weapons great....

You could make it more shooty by using 6x dev squads.

I like it!

- Greenie

If I took 6x dev sqds - it wouldnt be ultras anymore, unless I made it 9th Co Ultras

Why those extra 8-man veteran squads? Extra 6-man las/plas tacticals will serve the same purpose far better. Infiltraite is wasted on lascannon-toting troopss unless you KNOW it will put them in excellent firing positions, hard cover they need, or both. That damnned many heavy bolters means hordes will be no problem, nor will be light skimmers. I would say the thing this list really needs is some reassignment and another mobile unit or two -- counting on two assault squads to do all your movement is iffy at best.

-Adso

So, here goes the feedback.

a) Why give your master a storm bolter? If you are looking for versatility, give him either pistol/power sword or some lightning claws. That suddenly gives your unit hand to hand potential, and turns them into a possible counter-charge unit. Sure BS5 shooting is nice, but your squad is armed with missile launchers, making them more anti-tank than anti-personnel (especially w/ your numerous heavy bolter choices).

b) I like the infiltrate. Some may knock it, but the ability to put your units down AFTER your opponent has placed means that you can line up some nice shots and/or invalidate some of your opponent's troop placement. It also means that you can deploy out of your deployment zone to help offset your lack of mobility.

c) I like having the 8 man squads. You will score better comp than for 5/6 man squads, and it makes the hidden power fist that much more deadly (as you have more ablative wounds to soak before he goes away).

d) I think that melta guns are a serious contender for the infiltrating vet squads. The big downside is the lack of the single 24" shot. The big upside is that you won't ever take a self-inflicted wound AND that if your squad is moving forward (to make use of those power fists), you can do some serious tank hunting. Taking a melta gun means that you always feel up for taking that shot (knowing that your guy will never die from it). It also allows you to snipe the occasional T4 character - and nothing is better than insta-killing a 150-200 point guy with a single 10 pt weapon.

e) I dislike the fact that you have only 2 troop choices, and that they are both near minimum sized. This might lower your comp score in tournaments. That being said, I'm not entirely sure what you would take out for it. Thematically, you could easily pick up 2 scout squads, each with a missile launcher for the cost of one of the vet. squads. This would lower your hand to hand ability, but would pick you up an additional scoring unit and an additional infiltrating unit. As a bonus, you might be able to sneak a sniper rifle or two in there - and nothing says love like pinning. All this being said, if you're OK with 2 troops choices, that vet squad is pretty nice.

f) I like the assault squads. 8 is a good number - not as unwieldy as 10, but still with good staying power. Mobile flamers are wonderful, and go nicely with a solid heavy bolter presence.

g) Heavy bolter squads are superb. They kill marines in cover better than any other marine wielded shooting weapon, and do quite a number on horde armies.

What I think your army really needs is a single land speeder. That would give you the mobility that your army is lacking right now for claiming last turn objectives. You have 3 real options for the land speeder. Option (1) is to make it as cheap as possible (50 pts) and keep it hidden the entire game - or use it to snipe things that you know can't get a shot back at you. Option (2) is the same but with the assault cannon for 30 more points - again, you should only use it to snipe things... though that 24 inch assault cannon puts you into a the range of a lot more return fire. Option (3) is to put some missiles on it, letting you get a lot more 36"/48" range firepower. This has the bonus of letting you shoot at things that won't have range to shoot back at you, letting you use the speeder more and making the points more useful during the game.

With the number of objective based missions out there, especially ones involving claiming table quarters, a single land speeder can let you claim/contest a 925/462 point quarter with a 50/80 pt model. This is also useful for recon, claim the center, etc. type missions. And, if your scenario doesn't end up having any of these victory conditions, its still a nice unit to lay down some fire with.

By losing a single heavy bolter squad or vet squad, you could afford to pick up another troop choice and a land speeder. Alternately, you could lose your command squad for the additional tac/scout squad and land speeder.

Overall, I think it is a very solid list. Most of my comments revolve more around soft tournament scoring (comp scores) and the ability to claim objectives.

-- GZ

GZ – your feedback was top shelf! Thanks for taking the time, much appreciated. I incorporated a great deal of what you said – here’s the net gain.

My first list had 10 scoring units, 18 HW’s, 76 models, 4 PF’s, and 5 units capable of clearing the deployment zone (2 without requiring infiltration).

The new list has 12 scoring units, 18 HW’s, 76 models, 4 PF’s, 1 PW, and 6 units capable of clearing the deployment zone (3 without requiring infiltration).

And a point by point answer to your suggestions.


a) Down graded to a Captain and gave him a PW and BP.

b) I agree – infiltrate gives me some more tactical options not to mention being able to stay ULTRA without having to go with the trait system.

c) Agreed on the 8 man squads – in addition, I drop the plasma from the las/plas squads to further control for getting lousey comp scores.

d) In all honesty, Im putting my money on the BS4 rather than the T4/W4 of marines. I dropped most special weapons in order to account for a lot of your recommendations. Without any special rules to really excel at close combat, Im focusing the ULTRA’s on tactical flexibility and shooting.

e) I kept the vet squads and doubled my troop choices, hopefully helping the comp score again.

f) Agreed. Im not really taking Assault squads for their fighting ability – but for the mobile flamers and their mobility.

g) I dropped a lot of the HB’s in order to make the changes. LS Tornados come with better versions so it wasn’t too much a stretch – it was an improvement.

Here’s the new list:

Captain: Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon
5 man Command Squad: Heavy Bolter (x2); Infiltrate

2x 8 man Veteran Squads: Lascannon; Infiltrate; Power Fist Vet SGT

4x 6 man Tactical Squads: 2x Lascannon 2x Missile Launcher

2x 8 man Assault Squads: Flamer (x2); Power Fist Vet SGT

1 Unit of 2 Land Speeders: Heavy Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2)

2x 6 man Devastator Squads: Heavy Bolter (x3)

Sorry for the poor spelling in my previous post...I was a wee bit tired.

The new list is an excellent marines infantry army, with good use of assault squads and speeders to counteract low mobility.

The four tactical squads are a good buy, but I worry a little about their lack of a special weapon in case they need to move. Perhaps you could go to two armed with Plasma or Melta and two armed with Lascannon? That way the more mobile pair can move to supplement your Vet Squads, especially if they are already in forward positions.

Careful use of infiltration on the Vets can win you games, yes, but again, I would suggest a special weapon if you can find a place to dig up the points...perhaps in the Command Squad?

The assault squads are excellently laid out....though I might suggest seeing if you can hand melta bombs to the Vet. Sgts as a "just in case" measure.

The addition of Tornados is excellent...no one can deny the power of the assault cannon, and always remember they can deepstrike for free if you prefer...this can be a sneaky way to get those rending rear shots on a Russ. It's too bad your number of open slots means you have to run them as a single squadron, and makes me wonder if you could drop one of the two in order to make some of the changes above.

Thanks for keeping at it, and for your cogent posts. I'd love to hear how this list performs against some of the MEQ-Infantrybane armies out there, like 'zilla nids and billion-plasma-Guard.

-Adso