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The rules in the BGB for Deep Strike and Reserves don't say when (in the Movement Phase) the unit arrives.  If you are bringing in Deathwing Termies with the teleport homers on the Ravenwing bikes, must you bring them in before the bikes move or may you use their post-move position for the Terminators to home in on?  I've never used homers so I am a bit in the dark about how they work.  Thanks.

there is a little sub paragraph below the entry that specifies they must be brought in as soon as they are available-

i.e. the scout move happenes before the game starts, but once the game starts you must deepstrike/roll for deepstrike and place  BEFORE anything else moves.

Yeah, I saw the part about bringing them in as soon as they are available, but I think that refers to holding units in reserve even after you successfully roll to bring them in.  I am not asking about that, rather I want to know what part of the Movement Phase they come in on when they become available(and I'm not talking about the pre-game scout move either- just reserve units on/after turn 2).  Do they have to be the first unit that I "move" or can I move the bikes first then bring in my teleporting Termies?  Hope that clarifies my question a bit.

Mughi- do you have a page number for the reference about deep strikers have to be brought in before other units are moved?

Hmmm.... I don't read it that way. That paragraph goes on to say you can't wait until later turns. I that that paragraph is saying you have to roll for them each turn that you can, and if you succeed, you can't have them wait until later turns.

You're wrong, coredump.

It says to roll at the beginning of the turn, and then says that when a unit arrives, it must move onto the table. the rules specifically say you can't wait to make roles for any reason. Whether its later in the same turn, or in subsequent turns, it reads the same.

Break no rule.

More importantly the teleport homer rules specifically state that the homer must be on the board at the start of the turn to be used. Any homers moving onto the table from resereves would not be eligible to be used that turn.

Cent, I am glad you are so confident of your opinion.

Reading a rule too literally, or while taking it out of context, can break the rules also.

It says 'without delay', (It does not mention 'for any reason') it then goes on to talk about keeping them in reserve until later turns. The question is if the latter is clarifying, or just one possible example. Based on the rule, and the 'example', it is reasonable to assert that a 'delay' would be to wait until later turns.
Similarly, to bring them on 'when available'... they are available on the turn you roll high enough. To assert that that means it must be *immediately* is reading more into the rule than exists on its own.

If one insists on reading it as literally as possible, more troubles emerge. (granted, I am trying to make a point here) You roll for one unit, you make it. But now the rules say you must bring it on *and* the rules say you can't delay rolling. The only way to 'literally' follow the rules would be to roll all the dice at once, and bring all the models on at once. Of course, that is ridiculous.

Similarly, what about the lictor rerolls. It is common to use them to take a 'successful' reserve roll and roll again to try and get an unsuccessful one. That would be using the Lictors ability to 'delay' bringing the reserve unit on. So is that to be considered illegal also?

I believe there is merit in the assertion that reserves must be rolled before anything else, and must be deployed before anything else happens. But I don't think it can be totally justified by the rules; and there is room within the written rules to assert differently.

Posted By yakface on 05/14/2007 8:18 PM

More importantly the teleport homer rules specifically state that the homer must be on the board at the start of the turn to be used. Any homers moving onto the table from resereves would not be eligible to be used that turn.

Yak, you have completely missed the point of my question.  Perhaps I have not made it clear...  The situation is:  I have units of Ravenwing bikes running around the board (on or after turn 2) and have rolled successfully to bring Deathwing Termies on from reserve via deep strike.  My quesiton is:  Do I have to bring the Termies on before the bikes move in this turn or can they teleoprt in after the bikes move.  I can't find anything preventing the bikes moving first and then have the Termies teleport within 6" of the bikes new position.  Thanks

Bad example. But nice try.

There was a YMTC that addressed this, see the sticky above. I personally play that you can't move the bikes first, though I will readily admit that the rules are not specific on this.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

It would seem that the rules say that you have to put the models on the table as soon as they become availible. That would be before the start of your turn when the reserve rolls are made, not later in the movement phase.

Posted By Beast on 05/14/2007 10:23 PM

Yak, you have completely missed the point of my question.  Perhaps I have not made it clear...  The situation is:  I have units of Ravenwing bikes running around the board (on or after turn 2) and have rolled successfully to bring Deathwing Termies on from reserve via deep strike.  My quesiton is:  Do I have to bring the Termies on before the bikes move in this turn or can they teleoprt in after the bikes move.  I can't find anything preventing the bikes moving first and then have the Termies teleport within 6" of the bikes new position.  Thanks

Ah yes, sorry.

Well as has already been said in this thread, Reserve rolls are done at the beginning of the turn. Once you make that reserve roll by the RAW the Deep Striking rules must then be completed.

So no, you could not move models on the board before Deep Stirking models onto the table that turn.

 

Cent, I understand the specific/general relationship.

But the Lictor rule does not deal with breaking that rule, it just allows you to reroll. You must still follow all other rules where possible. The Lictor rule does not specifically allow breaking the 'no delay' rule.
As an illustration:
Normally you have to roll 2 dice for moving through difficult terrain. Fleet specifically lets you break that rule. But that does not mean you can ignore the impassable terrain rule.
Normally you can only roll once. The Lictor rule specifically allows you to break that rule. But that does not mean you can ignore the 'no delay' rule.


Beast, you answer depends on how you read that paragraph. If 'as soon as available' means you can't do *anything* else, or if it just means you can't hold on to them past that turn. Yak and Cent are pretty convinced it is the former; not everyone is as convinced.

The Lictor rule is sufficiently explicit if it says that you may re-roll any Reserve roll. There are several re-roll rules in the game which specify that only a failed roll can be re-rolled, so if the Lictor rule does not limit the re-roll to failures, it is clearly permitted to re-roll a successful roll. The Lictor's special rules pertain only to games involving that particular unit, and thus inherently are more specific than (and trump) the general reserve rules about not delaying.

"No delay" seems pretty clear to me.

But if you're not convinced, you can (and generally should) then fall back to the "least powerful interpretation" default. If a rule is ambiguous, it is generally better for the acting player to err on the side of the less powerful interpretation, so as to avoid the possibility of cheating the opponent. This ensures both that you act within the boundaries of the rules and that you don't annoy your opponents.

Posted By Mannahnin on 05/16/2007 11:23 AM
"No delay" seems pretty clear to me.

But if you're not convinced, you can (and generally should) then fall back to the "least powerful interpretation" default. If a rule is ambiguous, it is generally better for the acting player to err on the side of the less powerful interpretation, so as to avoid the possibility of cheating the opponent. This ensures both that you act within the boundaries of the rules and that you don't annoy your opponents.

Quoted for truth.  I am not convinced that its pretty clear, but I realize that my opponents usually are and its generally everyone plays that you have to bring on DS before you move everyone else.  However, I would like it to be more explicitly stated in a FAQ or future editions.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Actually it is very clear that deep strike occurs immediately at the beginning of the turn, before any other movement happens. It is so clear that there is no need to explain why. Why make something so simple complicated?



- Greenie

Eh, usually I fall back to the "How do you want to play it?" method. Most people will see certain rules differently, but will at least try and be fair about it. So I usually default to letting my opponent decide.

Its not how you want to play it. You have to put them on the board with no delays. You cannot just pick when you want to start rolling for them. And you have to roll from the second turn on. Except with Da they may roll on the first turn. This was beat to a dead horse with Demons some time ago.

the rule says :
"You must roll for reserves as soon as possible and must bring them onto the table as soon as they are available. You may not delay making the dice rolls or keep the reserves hanging around off-table untill you decide you need them (85)!"

it says nothing about a turn in any way, if you do anything between the roll and placement then you have held them off talbe till you decid they are needed.

And there are a number of places in the rule where acts that are meant to be similtainious are allowed to be done in succesion because you can't actually do them at the same time, such as rolling to hit rolls for different weapons in the same squad, so the statement that you can roll for them all and place them all at the same time is invalid.

Hmmm...I am becoming convinced you guys are right. I am not totally there.... but I can see what you are saying.

Well mebbe there is some hope for you, but I am not holding my breath anytime soon to be honest.

- Greenie

C'mon Coredump, don't give in! There's gotta be a loop-hole there somewhere!!

Nah, I play it the way everyone else here seems to, just wish it was a bit clearer.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Sure... sure you do.

- Greenie

I think Imriel has pretty much CLOSED this discussion. I missed comeing here to let some aggresion from daily life out. And now you must all pay even when im wrong...lol