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I am not talking in the "Living Saint" way but can, say, a chapter master that died in a heroic fasion be declared a Saint. Kinda like a how the Roman Catholics declare their saints.

I ask because I am writting the fluff for my DIY chapter and I want them to have strong ties to the Eclisasty (sp?) without going the whole "we believe in the Imperial Cult" route.

Well, for the reasons you've pointed out (or at least hinted at!), I'd say probably not.

I don't think any Space Marine Chapters venerate the Emperor as a God, which brings up an interesting point, that being what do Space Marines believe to be the "Supreme Being"? In the 40K universe, there is certainly enough evidence of other "gods", so, at this point in the development of the 40K universe, why not the Emperor?

 

Anyway, eventhough "officially" it wouldn't seem likely, it is your background, so you can do as you like (of course!), and have your Chapter be one of the few that DOES see the Emperor as a God, and therefore could indeed have a Saint (of the Official Imperium Approved variety) come from their ranks...

As Alpharius said, Sainting a Space Marine probably wouldn't occur. The Adeptus Astartes as a majority sees the Emperor as the greatest man of all time, but not a God. Some almost certainly do see the Emperor as a God, especially some of the more devout and extreme Reclusiarchs.

The Eccleisarchy, whom are in charge of those things, wouldn't allow someone who doesn't view the Emperor the way they do, as a Saint. Mainly out of pride and mainly out of religion.

That doesn't mean dead Space Marines are worshipped as almost Saints if they did a good enough job. Famous Marines such as Grimnar, Dante, Tu'shan etc would (even though they are alive) be venerated extremely. While dead heroes such as Tycho or Xavier would be also praised to a large degree.

The beauty of 40k is that you can decide how to write about your own army, if you want your chapter to venerate space marines to sainthood, go ahead! Personally i think it seems like a great idea, maybe Looking up to a fallen Brother for his skill in battle etc

Rach xx

Well, I don't want to fall into the "my chapter believes he is a god" catagory. My thoughts where along the lines that my original Chapter founder gave his lift to defend an Imperial Shrine or something equally holy, and he was declared a Saint because he was technically a martyr though he might not have believed in the divinity of the Emporer.

I don't like background fluff that is against the norm. or makes my chapter any more special than other chapters, so my real question is can it happen or even could it happen.

Oh i see, in that case i think it's possible that other Imperials would regard him as a Hero for his actions, but the marines themselves would not venerate him as a Saint.

Rach xx

Posted By Mahu on 11/06/2005 8:25 AM

I don't like background fluff that is against the norm. or makes my chapter any more special than other chapters, so my real question is can it happen or even could it happen.

Thats what I love about the 40K universe so much.  GW only touches on it's select few "Golden Boys" and leaves the rest for us to do as we wish.  Which makes it possible for things like my Marine chapter.  And with it being such a huge galaxy, there really is no limit to how far you could take things.  There is always bound to be at least 1 thing differant.

BTW...  where are the orkies?

Posted By Mahu on 11/06/2005 8:25 AM

Well, I don't want to fall into the "my chapter believes he is a god" catagory. My thoughts where along the lines that my original Chapter founder gave his lift to defend an Imperial Shrine or something equally holy, and he was declared a Saint because he was technically a martyr though he might not have believed in the divinity of the Emporer.

I don't like background fluff that is against the norm. or makes my chapter any more special than other chapters, so my real question is can it happen or even could it happen.

***
work that controversy into your fluff. Some members of the priesthood consider him a saint, while more conservative members say technically he can't be one. The chapter takes it as rather insulting to say that their honored member is not a saint, etc.

Posted By Alpharius on 11/05/2005 11:34 AM

Well, for the reasons you've pointed out (or at least hinted at!), I'd say probably not.

I don't think any Space Marine Chapters venerate the Emperor as a God, which brings up an interesting point, that being what do Space Marines believe to be the "Supreme Being"? In the 40K universe, there is certainly enough evidence of other "gods", so, at this point in the development of the 40K universe, why not the Emperor?

 

 

 

 

***

Wouldnt Sanginus be declared as saint? as in some of the 2nd edition fluff he is venerated in some areas higher than the emperor

Posted By Combatdroid113 on 11/08/2005 2:57 AM

Posted By Alpharius on 11/05/2005 11:34 AM

Well, for the reasons you've pointed out (or at least hinted at!), I'd say probably not.

I don't think any Space Marine Chapters venerate the Emperor as a God, which brings up an interesting point, that being what do Space Marines believe to be the "Supreme Being"? In the 40K universe, there is certainly enough evidence of other "gods", so, at this point in the development of the 40K universe, why not the Emperor

***

Wouldnt Sanginus be declared as saint? as in some of the 2nd edition fluff he is venerated in some areas higher than the emperor

 

Sanguinius IS a Saint. In some GW stories, or BL books, they describe him as Saint Sanguinius. He has a day dedicated to him and the only Primarch to have statues of him scattered throughout the Imperium and venerated out of all the Primarchs.

Hey, my Chapter believes a lot of nutso things...

1) They believe that they are the remnants of Legion 2 (one of the all-records-wiped ones), and that their archnemesees are the other one.
2) They believe that their Primarch is still alive, and living on their home planet. He's about the size of a Warhound now, and resembles a humanoid dragon. He sleeps... a LOT.
3) They believe that living on a planet where every lifeform is some form of snake is a GOOD thing.

And if that doesn't prove they're nuts, I don't know what does...

My opinion on the sainthood bit: if the Imperium was real, canonizing a Space Marine would be like the Pope canonizing a Jewish man. Sure, you've got, at their core, the same beliefs, but the details are where it falls flat. There's too much doctrinal difference, and ecclesiastical elitism, for it to ever happen officially. Now, some local Ecclesiarchial high-muckity-muck might bestow some religious honor for "service above and beyond", but the old men at the top would have to have new cyber-hearts put in at the idea.

For lord_sutekh,

I thought you'd find this interesting/helpful for your 2nd Legion remnants.

I found this SM list a while ago (don't ask 'cause I don't know where) that actually lists ALL of the first founding chapters and where their various pieces of fluff originate. Here is the bit on Legion 2:

<H2 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: -1.5in 9.0pt 27.0pt 1.75in 3.0in 4.25in 5.75in">2          Flesh Eaters                                    Chaos ? N<? </H2>

                Turned to Chaos before the Horus Heresy,

                1^st edition stated they had an omophagea geneseed defect (ie, same as Blood Angels)

                Alternately, Tyrant Guard & Primarch Tyrannius

                Or, Iron Hearts & Rubinek, from Into the Maelstrom 203-204

                Note that WD98 has the Mentors training the Flesheaters

and Legion 11:

<H2 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: -1.5in 9.0pt 27.0pt 1.75in 3.0in 4.25in 5.75in">11       Rainbow Warriors                              Chaos ? K </H2>

                Turned to Chaos before the Horus Heresy

                Some claim the Rainbow Warriors are a successor chapter

                Lord Corfer of Raind said to be the primarch

                www.inisfail.com/archives claims they are 3rd Founding from White Scars

 

I'd post the rest but its an 18 page Word Document!  It goes on to list succesor chapters mentioned at least up through WD283 and noteable homeade chapters through at least Gamesday Baltimore 2002. Somebody put a lot of effort into it, not me!

 

Oh, and I don't think a SM Chapter would allow one of its own to be declared a saint unless they were really itching for a civil war with the Ecclesiarchy or the Inquisition. :S

 

Then again, anythings possible...

The fluff you are referring to there is the Rogue Trader rulebook, but you have tragically misinterpereted it. In the origional Space Marine entry in the rulebook there is a two page color spread on page 168-169. Alas, while the second pictured chapter (Chapter not legion mind you) is the Flesh Eaters and the eleventh is the rainbow warriors, there are only twelve even pictured and they are not in order of appeareance or by legion number etc. If they were intended to be shown by number then it is odd that not one traitor chapter is pictured and Space Wolves are 7th in line (their Legion/Chaptor number is 6). GW is catagorical about the 2nd and 11th remaining blanks for now. There is no hint at all as to what happened to them. I wish I had a buck for every kid I've met who claimed his marines were the long lost 2nd or 11th Legion...

As to a SM being a saint its a catagorical no too. If you want a strong Ecclesial link for your chapter but still want your fluff to be plausible try something like this: The chapter veneratates a particular Saint do to him/her perhaps saving the chapters homeworld or members during a Crusade they were mutually invovled with or some such. Perhaps the Chapters still assists members of an Ecclesiarchal order dedicated to the Saint from time to time as a way of "honoring the debt" or something similar. But actaully canonizing a SM is like having female SMs in terms of Plausiblity.

I agree that a Space Marine cannot be a saint....although as mentioned they can still be venerated almost as much...For example there are shrines Dedicated to such leaders...although it has been known for the Echlesiah to frown on this veneration.

As fo rthe missing chapters thing....the Flesh tearers are defenity a sub chapter of the Blood Angels despite what Rogue Trader may say also....Rainbow warriors are later mentioned as a Ultrasmur....i mean Ultramarines sub chapter.....so there you go...

A Space Marine could be a saint, but he would have to pass the Beatification of the Eclysiarchy.

This is why there aren't too many Space Marine saints...

It's very hard to find anyone in the Eclysiarchy who can consistently Beatify a Space Marine...

Plus imagine how a big a hat they would need!

Hey now, I'm not misinterpreting nor interpreting anything. As I said, I'm simply cutting and pasting from this massive document I found online. I'm sure that one of the prime sources of its info was the original Rogue Trader, however it has also pulled data from literally hundreds of other sources including every WD up to 280+, the Black Library books, and varoius gamesdays and tournaments. Its quite possible that the pages you are refering to are the soul source of this data, and therefore render it suspect, however, based on the scope and effort put into the document as a whole, I feel that it is a fairly reliable source of 'lost' (read discarded) fluff.

I'd be happy to send it to anyone who asks, though I will not post it here in its entirety as it is not my work and its sheer size renders it quite unwieldly for a forum such as this.

 

Anyhoo, Saints are right out.

Space are not incapable of sainthood, it just isn't common... I know a couple of primarchs are saints, and not just upon their own worlds either.

Based on the the things I've read, the general Space Marine view of the Emperor seems to be of someone not inherently "divine", but yet more than a man, a sort of "ascended" or "transcended" human (akin to, say, Buddha).

That said, an inportant thing to remember is the vastness and massively decentrallized nature of the Imperium. Just about nothing is standardized across the whole of it, including the Cult Imperialis (even within the Inquistion there is a multitude of interpretations). So, really, there's not much to say that a particular faction of the Ecclesiarchy could not declare a Space Marine a Saint.

I'm pretty sure they blanked out the 2nd and 11th legions specifically so people could claim to be a long-lost Space marine chapter. Although I once heard whispers of one of them being the original Grey Knights, pre-Inquisition.