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Ok, I've been trying to work out why everyone uses spinegaunts instead of Gaunt's with devourers, so, here are some numbers (correct me if I am wrong)

spinegaunt: shoots marine at 12"
Hits, 3/6 + 3/12 (tl)
wounds 3/6
saves (doesn't save)  2/6

so 9/12 * 3 / 6 * 2/6 = 54/432  = 12.5%

Spinegaunt with +1 S at 12"
Hits, 3/6 + 3/12 (tl)
wounds 4/6
saves (doesn't save)  2/6

so 9/12 * 4 / 6 * 2/6 = 72/432  = 16.7%

spinegaunt with +1 bs at 12"
Hits, 4/6 + 2/6*4/6  = 32/36 (tl)
wounds 3/6
saves (doesn't save)  2/6

so 32/36 * 3/6 * 2/6 = 192/1296  = 14.8%

spinegaunt with both upgrades = 32/36 * 4/6 * 2/6 = 256 / 1296 = 19.8%


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Devgaunt: shoots marine at 18"
Hits, 3/6
wounds 2/6 + 4/6 * 2/6 = 20/36
saves (doesn't save)  2/6
 = 120/1296 = 9.25%

Devgaunt with +1 bs at 18"
Hits, 4/6
wounds 2/6 + 4/6 * 2/6 = 20/36
saves (doesn't save)  2/6
 = 160/1296 = 12.3%

Devgaunt with +1 S at 18"
Hits, 3/6
wounds 3/6 + 3/6 * 3/6 = 27/36
saves (doesn't save)  2/6
 = 162/1296 = 12.5%

 Devgaunt with both upgrades = 4/6 * 27/36 * 2/6 = 216/1296 = 16.7%

But, each of the Devgaunts gets two shots... so their % kills are effectivly doubled, and gets to shoot at 18", so will probably get to shoot twice before the marines get to charge them. However, since the spinegaunts are 2 points

Now the point efficiencies:
Spinegaunt 5 pts = 12.5 / 5 = 2.5%
Spinegaunt +1 bs 6 pts  = 2.78%
spinegaunt +1 str 7 pts ? (no codex..) = 2.11%
spinegaunt both  8 pts = 2.475% (straight spinegaunts... got it!)

Devgaunt 8 pts = 2 * 9.25/8 = 2.3%
Devgaunt +1 bs 9 pts = 2.73%
Devgaunt +1 str 11 pts ? (no codex..) =  2.27%
Devgaunt both  12 pts (as much as a damn Dire Avenger!) = 2.78%

So, Devgaunts that are +1 Bs are just as effcient as Spinegaunts (well, within rounding of each other). You get half as many (so half as surviable), but you get to shoot at 18"....

I thought the main reason people used spinegaunts was as a moving meat sheild and tar pit, so they needed to be as cheap and numerous as possible - if they got to actually shoot anything that was merely a bonus.

If you actually want to use them for 18" shooting instead, then yes devgaunts may well be better

Not really sure what you are trying to show, but you ought to get the codex first.

Gaunts don't have a  +bs option.

Basic Spinegaunt is str 3 so wounds 1/3rd time

Basic devgaunt is Str2 shot so wounds 1/6 time (+living ammo).

SpineGaunt with +Str = 8pts

Basic Devgaunt is 7 pts.

Devagaunt with +Str is 10pts.

Like Clang said, people like Spine Gaunts just to fleet up the table and get stuck in close combat. Devourer Gaunts are a fairly effective shooting unit, especially against T3. The Toxin Sacs make them more worthwhile against T4.

I had a theory-hammer list that used Devourer-Gaunts 'Spitter-Gaunts?' 'Worm-Gaunts?' that were S2 shooting and had Without Number, the idea being that if they came back late in the game they could run up and shoot something. It was mostly just for fun, my only experience regarding Tyranids is getting fed to the rippers.

Oops,
When I said "No Codex", I meant, I don't have the codex here with me, and I was trying to pull this stuff of the top of my head. Fogot that Gaunts can't get the Enhanced Senses Biomorph... and yes, I htink I did these numbers assuming T3 space marines. (Don't we all wish...). I am building up a horde army, so I thought I was trying to maximize my shooting damage from the little buggers. Thanks for correcting my points, I'll repost.

I vote for Termagaunts and Gaunts Ghosts

Okay, I won't address your numbers, because they are known to be inaccurate.

The main problem with Devilgaunts, is the lack of wounds. They (normally) cost twice as much as spinegaunts, so you get half as many.

But the biggest disadvantage of spinegaunts..... is there are too many of them to shoot. IOW, if you are playing swarm, and have 24-32 of them in a brood, it is rare to get them all within 12" range, so the fact that they are able to do damage, doesn't mean they actually get that chance.

I recommend taking termagants, they are only 1 pt more than spineguants, with the higher S and living ammo are more likely to wound, and smaller numbers makes it easier to get into range. Even if you are running them as 'meat shields' to rush into CC, I would recommend using termagants, since if you do get to shoot, it will be much more useful. At a point per model, it is a good deal.

I have to agree with Coredump, termagaunts are the best choice. I use 5-6 squads of 12 termagaunts in my Nidzilla list and have done very well with them. They pack a big enough punch that they are always dangerous and cheap enough to be thrown away as meat shields or tie up units.

Termagaunts for the win.

Darrian

<table width="586" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 441pt;"> <col width="95" style="width: 71pt;"></col> <col width="32" style="width: 24pt;"></col> <col width="45" style="width: 34pt;"></col> <col width="38" style="width: 29pt;"></col> <col width="46" style="width: 35pt;"></col> <col width="44" style="width: 33pt;"></col> <col width="35" style="width: 26pt;"></col> <col width="70" style="width: 53pt;"></col> <col width="64" style="width: 48pt;"></col> <col width="43" style="width: 32pt;"></col> <col width="74" style="width: 56pt;"></col> <tbody> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td width="95" height="17" class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt; width: 71pt;"> </td> <td width="32" class="xl25" style="width: 24pt;">Hit</td> <td width="45" class="xl25" style="width: 34pt;">ReRoll</td> <td width="38" class="xl24" style="width: 29pt;">total</td> <td width="46" class="xl25" style="width: 35pt;">Wound</td> <td width="44" class="xl25" style="width: 33pt;">ReRoll</td> <td width="35" class="xl24" style="width: 26pt;" x:str="total ">total </td> <td width="70" class="xl25" style="width: 53pt;">Num Shots</td> <td width="64" class="xl24" style="width: 48pt;">Total Points</td> <td width="43" class="xl24" style="width: 32pt;">Kills</td> <td width="74" class="xl24" style="width: 56pt;">%effciency</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;">spinegaunt</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="" x:fmla="=B2/6+((6-B2)/6*B2/6)*C2">0.75</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">2</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">0</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="0.33333333333333331" x:fmla="=E2/6+((6-E2)/6*E2/6)*F2">0.33</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="">5.00</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="" x:fmla="=D2*G2*H2">0.25</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="00.05" x:fmla="=J2/I2">0.0500</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;">TS spinegaunt</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="" x:fmla="=B3/6+((6-B3)/6*B3/6)*C3">0.75</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">0</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="" x:fmla="=E3/6+((6-E3)/6*E3/6)*F3">0.50</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="">7.00</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="0.375" x:fmla="=D3*G3*H3">0.38</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="5.3571428571428568E-2" x:fmla="=J3/I3">0.0536</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;"> </td> <td class="xl25"> </td> <td class="xl25"> </td> <td class="xl24"> </td> <td class="xl25"> </td> <td class="xl25"> </td> <td class="xl24"> </td> <td class="xl25"> </td> <td class="xl24"> </td> <td class="xl24"> </td> <td class="xl24"> </td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;">devgaunt</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">0</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="" x:fmla="=B5/6+((6-B5)/6*B5/6)*C5">0.50</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="0.30555555555555558" x:fmla="=E5/6+((6-E5)/6*E5/6)*F5">0.31</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">2</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="">7.00</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="0.30555555555555558" x:fmla="=D5*G5*H5">0.31</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="4.3650793650793655E-2" x:fmla="=J5/I5">0.0437</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;">TS devgaunt</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">0</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="" x:fmla="=B6/6+((6-B6)/6*B6/6)*C6">0.50</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">2</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="0.55555555555555558" x:fmla="=E6/6+((6-E6)/6*E6/6)*F6">0.56</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">2</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="">10.00</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="0.55555555555555558" x:fmla="=D6*G6*H6">0.56</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="5.5555555555555559E-2" x:fmla="=J6/I6">0.0556</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;"> </td> <td class="xl25"> </td> <td class="xl25"> </td> <td class="xl24"> </td> <td class="xl25"> </td> <td class="xl25"> </td> <td class="xl24"> </td> <td class="xl25"> </td> <td class="xl24"> </td> <td class="xl24"> </td> <td class="xl24"> </td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;">termegaunt</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">0</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="" x:fmla="=B8/6+((6-B8)/6*B8/6)*C8">0.50</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="" x:fmla="=E8/6+((6-E8)/6*E8/6)*F8">0.75</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="">7.00</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="0.375" x:fmla="=D8*G8*H8">0.38</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="5.3571428571428568E-2" x:fmla="=J8/I8">0.0536</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;">ts termagaunt</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">3</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">0</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="" x:fmla="=B9/6+((6-B9)/6*B9/6)*C9">0.50</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">4</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="0.88888888888888884" x:fmla="=E9/6+((6-E9)/6*E9/6)*F9">0.89</td> <td align="right" class="xl25" x:num="">1</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="">9.00</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="0.44444444444444442" x:fmla="=D9*G9*H9">0.44</td> <td align="right" class="xl24" x:num="4.9382716049382713E-2" x:fmla="=J9/I9">0.0494</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

So yeah, basically I think that Devilgaunts are good because my group tends to play on largish tables, so all the range is neccessary. Also, I think that 18" is a lot better than 12" simply because you can prevent yourself from being charged the next turn (if you want it).

Hey Wiskinator,
Termagaunts cost 6 points each, not 7 points each. That will really change your table.

Darrian

Dang it! I swear I will learn to add 2 and 4 someday!
Yeah, with that change it really gives the good old fasioned termegant a bonus!

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x:fmla="=D2*G2*H2" x:num="" class="xl24">0.25</td> <td align="right" x:fmla="=J2/I2" x:num="00.05" class="xl26">0.0500</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24">TS spinegaunt</td> <td align="right" x:num="" class="xl25">3</td> <td align="right" x:num="" class="xl25">1</td> <td align="right" x:fmla="=B3/6+((6-B3)/6*B3/6)*C3" x:num="" class="xl24">0.75</td> <td align="right" x:num="" class="xl25">3</td> <td align="right" x:num="" class="xl25">0</td> <td align="right" x:fmla="=E3/6+((6-E3)/6*E3/6)*F3" x:num="" class="xl24">0.50</td> <td align="right" x:num="" class="xl25">1</td> <td align="right" x:num="" class="xl24">7.00</td> <td align="right" x:fmla="=D3*G3*H3" x:num="0.375" class="xl24">0.38</td> <td align="right" x:fmla="=J3/I3" x:num="5.3571428571428568E-2" class="xl26">0.0536</td> </tr> <tr height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;"> <td height="17" style="height: 12.75pt;" class="xl24"> </td> <td class="xl25"> </td> <td 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It's not all about kills/points ratio. First off, a couple of things: Gaunts can't have a +1BS upgrade. Secondly, not every target is a marine. I like Spinegaunts for numbers, but Devgaunts for something like Cities of Death, where they are cheap, mid-ranged guns with alot of shots. I can get a squad with 24 living ammumition, S2 shots for 84 points. However, if I need numbers, I go with plenty of 5 point spinegaunts.

Well..... TS Spineys are 8 pts and TS terms are 9pts

I'm slowly building up a large devgaunt force - slow cos I hate painting, so painting lots of cheap stuff is :¬((

As burning star said, theres more to it than just kills/point. There are also those subjective things, and also probably depends on how they fit in with the rest of your list, but I find the difference between 12" and 18" like between day and night.

Why I don't like 12" gaunts as a shooting unit (though they are excellent tarpit units):

In some scenarios (like cleanse) devourers are a turn 1 threat, in others they are pretty much a guaranteed turn 2 threat whereas 12" can be pushed back to turn 3 if the other guy deploys far enough back.

Its easier getting all models within 18" than it is 12" without having to really bunch up all your broods.

Devourers are golden against all those trying out T3 eldar.

Quantity is a quality of its own, 2 shots each (with casual mention of re-rolls to wound) looks scary when you count out the dice you need for shooting.

If you are within 12" of the other guy, then he is within rapid fire range of you. At 13"-18" he has to make a decision on whether to advance or not. Not always an easy decison.

The extra range and ability to shoot beyond rapid fire range can mean the devgaunts get in more shooting in a game making up for a lower average per shot. They also give you a little more flexibilty - e.g. more likely to have extra targets to choose from due to the extra range.

I personally go with the 7pt devgaunt. Whilst not as effective in obvious points terms, the extra wounds make up for that.


Heres some more stats that you should take with a pinch of salt, or view as just fun as the scenarios aren't overly likely, but they demostrate that there is more to simple points/kill/shot.

6 bolter marines vs 13 7pt devgaunts shooting each other at range 13-18, and assumed all morale checks pass, then given a max of 5 turns (ie turn 2 onwards) the marines have 18.7% chance of killing all the gaunts the gaunts have a 13.5% chance of killing all the marines.

6 bolter marines vs 15 6pt fleshborer gaunts, the same scenario but with range 1-12 has marines killing all gaunts 67% and gaunts killing all marines 8.8%.

6 bolter marins vs 18 5pt spinefists, marines kill all 49% gaunst kills all 6.8%.

I agree the 7pt Devourergaunt is best. Though with so many good Devourer options. Fexes, Tyrants, Raveners I decided to go with the classic Termagant just for a chage.

The only way a Termagant is actually better is that it is slightly cheaper and every hit is likely to kill a guardsman. So they attract attention very nicely.

I got a little crazy last night and glued up about 24 devilgaunts... I just really agree with Puree. Even if the numbers don't point strictly in their favor the range is too good to pass up. I've played eldar since a Shurikan Catapult was identical to a storm bolter (and both could get up to 6 shots in a turn if you were lucky...), and I felt that the drop to 12" on the cat was HUGE. Being able to out distance rapid fire, and completly out distance guardians is just nice.

And, almost all of my 18 warriors are Dev armed, as is the obligtory Dakkafex, so I guess it was a theme thing.

I like it when the options are well balanced. Makes for a more fun and interesting game.

My calcs per point spent
7pt Devgaunt on T3 .079
6pt Termgaunt on T3 .074

7pt Devgaunt on T4 .044
6pt Termgant on T4 .063

TGants much better at T4. 'Infinitely' better at T6&7, 'infinitely' better at AV10 vehicles, slightly more wounds
Devgaunts slightly better at T3, 'infinitely' better at the 13-18" range, range along with fewer bodies means easier to have them all in firing range.