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I was playing Nidzillas the other night with my gaurd and it just sank in again how futile of a battle that really is. I managed ot pull off a tie by the skin of my teeth, but i only killed one big bug and that was only because i had an Eversor assasin hiding in my ranks to counter charge the flyrant. You just cant shoot 6+ toughness 6 montrous creatures to death when they are in cover. Not even gaurd can do that in 6 turns. The exchange of fire always comes out in the Big Bugs favor. If anyone knows of a way to pull that match up off, please let me know, because i will likely play the same army in the league playoffs here.

In my experiance, the most efficient way to kill big bugs is in HtH. Harlies, Grey Knight termies, Chaplains, Assault Marines, Termies of both varietys, nobs with power claws, Deamon Princes, etc. They roll Carnies no problem and usually in just one round of combat, and take out Hive Tyrants (especially shooty tyrants) in a round or two.

That got me to thinking about the new Blood Angels. In my opinion, Nidzillas are the most powerful all around army in the game, with mechanized eldar a close second (again, tha tis just my opinion). However, the rules for the new blood angels look to provide what i think could be a very effective way to crush the big bugs.

If you take the assault marine heavy list (which sounds like the most viable way to take them) You can get a lot of rending and powerfist attacks on the big bugs really fast. Dakka fexes will only be half as effective against death company (who will morder big bugs on the charge) and characters like Mephiston should rock bugs with a strength 5 force weapon and might of heroes. I think 50 to 60 assault marines plus characters would be too much to stop by turn 2, and when the assaulters hit they would silence all the big guns and leave the Carnies in a situation where they will most likely only kill a marine a turn so long as they last.

You bring a siege dread in a drop pod or baal predator or something simlar to clear out any little bugs that are screening the big bugs and I think you would have a pretty good bug swatting force.

You would be faster than the bugs, hit harder in HtH and be numerous and durable enough to get your Powerfists and renders into combat quickly and reliably. I think the only real pitfall would be gettting tarpitted by the little bugs, but even then you would kill them relatively quickly due to superior statlines and be immune to shooting from the big bugs while you were engaged.

What does everyone else think?

They'll probably kill nidzilla dead. Then again, you probably could too, if you took a couple drop elements or a squad of gkts. I do well with my 'nidzillas, but they're a terribly overrated list. Blood angels would still have the shooting to melt through the few gaunt units you'd be likely to encounter, especially if you brought a predator or two. I think no-tank BA would be better, though.

nidzilla is easy to hate against, the reason they do well is because people don't hate against them.

it really depends on whats on the bugs in question and what the overall list is like. genestealer aside bugs are one of the best pure CC armies in the game. 

i don't play nidzilla nor do i care for it. my wifes list is almost all warriors with upgrades-fearless, no instant death, leaping, rending,  high weapon skill, high strength,  high intiative, etc....  which would be a tougher fight for even blood angels than a nidzilla list  with so many points tied up in a few units.

 

 

There's a player around here in Atlanta who plays a Choir Nidzilla combination list that would eat up the BA's.

His troops are 4x6 carapace stealers, 2x8 carapace stealers.

Against an army that he knows will try to assault him, he would screen all the 'Stealers with the big bugs, and just counter assault with all those rending attacks. It's a pretty yucky list.

Sal.

My entire army drop troops, it still doesnt do much against big bugs, you just cant put out enough wounds.

Greay knights, though, would destroy a big bug in combat, but getting there is the hard part.

@Sal,
Yes i agree, big bugs with Stealers would be the toughest combo for an assault army to overcome.

You don't use drop troops against the big bugs.... you use drop troops against the stealers. Then you can use the assault units against the big bugs.

true, i use my heavy flamer, flamer squads to take out broods of little bugs, and the quad plasma gun squads to soften up big bugs.

I'm not aware of any effective IG assault units. RR fill the role of counter assault, but they're only good for 1 turn on 1 unit the whole game. Multiple units still only maxes you out at 3 MCs, assuming they've got the cover to get there.

I'm no proponent of Ratlings, but perhaps NidZilla is a potential use for them? Again, I'm asking about their effectiveness, not suggesting them...

i think a 3 las cannon heavy weapon squad (same points) would serve better as they are good against the HS and HQ big bugs too. But, Ratlings could be pretty resliant with a potential 3+ cover save.

For the points though, id rather have a heavy weapon squad.

For point values, I'd say command squad with double plasma guns.  Move up, 4 S7 AP2 shots.  Get Doctrines and take some Veteran squads, and take some Last Chancers with demo charges.

I think IG heavy weapon squads got robbed.  Why do Marines get 35 point lascannons in a squad with T4 Sv 3+, while IG get 35 point lascannons in a squad with T3 Sv 5+?  Whatta gyp.  Plus they took away the Griffon.  I know, this is ages ago, but a 70 point guess range antihorde weapon was just so good.

Posted By Flagg07 on 06/17/2007 12:23 PM

Then you can use the assault units against the big bugs.

I'm not aware of any effective IG assault units. RR fill the role of counter assault, but they're only good for 1 turn on 1 unit the whole game. Multiple units still only maxes you out at 3 MCs, assuming they've got the cover to get there.

I'm no proponent of Ratlings, but perhaps NidZilla is a potential use for them? Again, I'm asking about their effectiveness, not suggesting them...

EFFECTIVE IG units, that's the trick.  Commissars do OK, but they're a chunk of points.  Not great.

Ratlings, yeah.  11 point sniper rifles, wee.  Ratlings are one of the good things Guard really have going for them.  Too bad there's a limit on them and you need a Doctrine point to take 'em if you use Doctrines.  Can't have everything, though.

IG lascannons are 25 points each. That is still overpriced for them though. Either the IG themselves need to be cheaper, or their weapons need to be cheaper. A marine tac squad pays 15 pts for a las cannon, an IG squad pays 25, which is slowed.

I think the issue is more that Marines should be paying 25-30 points for a Lascannon rather than IG paying less...

Hehe, not to derail the topic further, but many believe the basic cost for the Marine itself needs to be increased.

Sal.

Dark Angels (and I think Blood Angels now too) pay 20 points for lascannons in Tac squads and 35 in Dev squads. That's at least closer.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Heck, you don't need to have an "effective" IG unit to throw into CC. If you can get enough ahead on points, simply charge a cheap squad into CC and let them tarpit the big bugs and snatch objectives.

the only problem with that is that when you lose combat to a big bug, you are outnumbered, probably under half and most likely out of your command bubble, which means you are running and likely getting rundown.

The only time I move towards an assault unit with gaurd is to force my opponant to charge that unit and hopefully they run leaving the assault unit out of range to consolidate into another of my units, then shoot the hell out of it next turn.

Gaurd dont make good tarpits for the most part. They are more like speedbumps, free movement and or easy VP's.

a conscript unit with a commisar is a great tarpit, but its bloody expenisve and it takes up two doctrines.

You would be better off taking RR's as they will actually kill something and are cheap. Either that or GKT's, as they will put a serious hurting on anything that gets to close and they can shoot as well.

Likely getting run down? In a typical 'Nidzilla shooty list, the only thing that stands a real chance to run down anything are the Tyrants. All the 'fexes will be I1.

Posted By Saldiven on 06/20/2007 11:41 AM
Likely getting run down? In a typical 'Nidzilla shooty list, the only thing that stands a real chance to run down anything are the Tyrants. All the 'fexes will be I1.

Good point.

Except that most of those lists (that I've seen) have Stealers hiding behind the big guys for countercharge.

Posted By newpaintbrush on 06/19/2007 1:32 AM
For point values, I'd say command squad with double plasma guns.  Move up, 4 S7 AP2 shots.  Get Doctrines and take some Veteran squads, and take some Last Chancers with demo charges.

I think IG heavy weapon squads got robbed.  Why do Marines get 35 point lascannons in a squad with T4 Sv 3+, while IG get 35 point lascannons in a squad with T3 Sv 5+?  Whatta gyp.  Plus they took away the Griffon.  I know, this is ages ago, but a 70 point guess range antihorde weapon was just so good.

Because, essentially, IG weapons teams have 2 wounds. Maybe that's it?