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Hmm,

It's good to see people actaully are as interested in the actual game of 40K and making it a sound system that may not be perfect but become increasingly balanced.

As for the rules being clearly written (we have an ironic amount of expertese being put into this project - props to HBMC and milesteg), the amount of argueing at knife point about defined terms and exceptions and special rules is amazing (and hilarious).

Schepp, I didn't play 40K until I met these guys (Fantasy in my opinion isn't broken in the same sense and way much easier to play without being stupidly unbalanced). These rules even though are nacent in some aspects are really the reason why I now own way too much Eldar and Chaos (and want more... no... new models....)

Any way, reading through the rule book is an impressive first start. Love to hear of more typos and errors (Milesteg is a perfectionist at the highest level, so small things can be funny)

Oh and as HBMC has said: With the OMGWTFBBQ responses, we want to at least know what the issue is. For example I think bikes have become more powerful than people think with the -2 to hit modifier when travelling fast (even though our guided missile rules can counter it) Now I'm planning to play test it with a Tzeentch army

General note: WE HAVE A GOOD THOUSAND SONS ARMY LIST!!!! (Yes it's only a draft and there are bugs to weed out but it feels fluffy and it actually can fight and win, an intruiging concpet I know)

A big question that I thought would be good to hear about would be the changes to the dreadnaught (No more armour value, now T8 with 3 wounds - I think it works well - IE Hard to insta kill in one shot, but not impossible: what are your thoughts)

Good luck guys (enjoy the rules, we are enjoying the feedback, which has all been positive so far, which is nice) Some people have put far more work than a full time job into this task (all for the love of the game)

Posted By ColonelEllios on 07/09/2007 3:50 AM

Also, the formatting on any/all of your tables is almost beyond comprehension--either they are rife with errors, or my software is outdated (just a friendly reminder to double-check them as formatting is always a pain).

I guess my overall reaction so far can be summed up as: I like the rule changes, but I personally expected some minor rebalancing of the codexes, and not wholesale rewrites as have been published. It's always good to start such an undertaking with a wealth of ideas, but one must be careful not to strain the creative liscence and must not flinch at the prospect of cutting or simplifying large chunks of material for the sake of comprehension and gameplay. Great ideas in need of a serious and critical trim, in summation.

Hi ColonelEllios,

As for the comment on the tables, agreed - We need to keep a very close eye on all of the tables as one change can result in hundreds of small changes through out codecies (some can be missed time to time)

I suppose the second comment really depends on perspective, when we approach a codex now we look back at many editions of the codecies that have been produced by GW, hence we can learn from their good and bad ideas.  We also like the ideas of the fluff being a little more involved in the designs of armies, which hopefully can be seen in the codecies as we write them.

They are a little bit daunting at first, as you are right, in some circumstances they can be significantly different to the designs and rules put out by GW themselves. 

In regards to the rules needing to be simplified, we (well I) feel that this was the direction of GW itself.  As old skool (and some newer gamers) we have shied away from the simplification of rules just for slightly quicker games (yes some things need to be simplified like screening and movement) but slight variations and rulesets that are not the norm are what make this version of the game enjoyable for me. 

Things like: Twin-linking hitting twice if the initial roll is a 6.  Vehicles being able to move and still shoot effectively.  Being able to assault when you roll a hit for deep strike.  Having good psychic powers that are better than heavy weapons so your chaos lord would actually think about using them (rather than always assaulting), etc etc.

Just like any rule set, they are only as complicated as the amount of times you use them.  I still struggle with the glancing and penetrating charts as I don't use then much, but the rest of the rules become second nature.  I suppose we are aiming at a more advanced level of gamer (not suggesting you are not, the fact that you have put forward cohesive and logical points suggests that you think about gaming systems and the impications that arise from the levels of details written into the rules)

Just a thought, :-)

Hi Phoenix,

Difficult terrain: I don't think this has been fully address in our rules subset. As far as I'm aware we would just assume people could travel there full charge distance if one model can make it into assault. (Well that's what I would do) With the larger supporting attacks and larger kill zones in our rules, this isn't as big a problem (IE not getting into base to base contact)

Force Weapons: These are still powers weapons in our rules (see page 40 i think), so yes they do ignore armour saves, and yes they do keep killing my Chaos Lords constantly!!!!

WS and to Hit: Thanks, that's what we thought (Well the others, I joined this motley crew later)

Rending: For the high strength models, rending will only glance if it wouldn't have normally penetrated. As for the lower strength ones, they generally don't do as much damage as you would think.

Hmm,

The first turn wipe out, a very interesting dillema. Sadly not something that can be eliminated from the game due to the nature of IGOUGO (which after much discussion is definately staying).

In our rules we have a few things that have attempted to counter this (and are developing a few more like disruption points being meaningful, advanced escalation of forces, scenarios being more balanced on the armies taken etc)

You mentioned missions: Milesteg is working (or has completed, I can't recall) a more objective based missions list (IE shooty armies don't always win if they out shoot), but I'll leave that for him or HBMC or Beyond.wudge to comment on (as I haven't really seen this - I can't be bothered just yet :-)

The actual balancing items in these games are

screening:
more effective on the first turn as you can only avoid using a night fight test (IE only within 36")

Faster Armies and Terrain:
This works both ways I guess, but in general, if you want to deploy to not get shot at on the first turn you should be able to. We generally play with heavier terrain which is a balance against this (probably the best one in my humble opinion) which means that it is your choice how exposed you want to be (There are not that many indirect fire things in the game, really).

Some Troops are harder to kill:
Terminators are an obvious example now with two wounds.
Eldar with Defense (Near impossible to shoot down or through)
Dreadnaughts - T8 are much tougher than AV12 (WAY TOUGHER)
among other things
Admittedly not a lot of things are more durable

Night Fight and Concealment:
Night fight happens more often in our rules (which is a huge thing for the first turn detroy everything in the first turn). Concealment just makes shooting first turn for both sides as hard, useful but with its limitations.



This being said, we have had many games go into the 7th and 8th turns with random game length, so to say that most of the forces are wiped out by turn 3 or 4 is not a fair statement. Milesteg and I had a game where no-one really lost anything until turn 3 due to the way the armies advanced up the table (This was Eldar Foot Sloggers and Shooty Tzeentch), yes the world imploded on turn 4, but that's because I had enough and decided that shooting sucked in this game and massed forward!!

But I digress...

I'm not HBMC,
but I can put on his hat for a second...

Milesteg:
OMGWTFBBQ!!!!

Hat taken off...

Well, I like the idea of Eldar actually having a S7 weapon :-)
I also don't particularly mind the concept of just two shots.

I suppose the real reason I don't fully support the change is that it changes the dynamic of the starcannon from being terrible against vehicles (well in our rules at least) and is being replaced with a different dymanic entirly.

Actually now that I think this through, it actually is a good design. It is an armour piercing autocannon (very armour piercing!!) and the 2 shots makes the missile launcher a more feasable weapon option (1 shot was very much a downside for these - But now it's not as big a difference as the best 3 heavy weapons that are all shooting 1,1 and 2 shots - A big difference as the EML really really didn't excel at anything, it a slightly better normal missile launcher - Which is usually the same as no-one ever uses the plasma missile option anyway as there are options usually to make use of the Krak)

2 cents depleted..
going into hiberation...

...

Hmm,

So that's what happens when your computer freezes as soon as you hit reply (Mental note - It does go through)

Note: All Eldar pretty much are BS4 under revisited rules, Milesteg will have a fit and collapse otherwise (Actually, Eldar being BS3 was the whole reason that this project started)

While I do agree with Colonel about the Star Cannon being better than the shuriken cannon and scatter laser (It does cost a lot more though, 10 points is a whole heavy bolter and a bit)

I'll disagree that the lower powered weapons never get a go,
6 scatter lasers or shuriken cannons on war walkers it noticably cheaper than the star cannon variety and don't tend to waste points (IE on hordes they are the best setup you can have really) where as scatter lasers only tend to get their value against elite infantry (not hordes)

Also,

In revisited, there is a huge difference between 30 and 36 inches for heavy weapons (even more so when they are on models that have the invisible special rule) 24" for a heavy weapon makes it a very short range weapon (IE Multi Melta and that's meant to be really close range)

The biggest difference that is noticable in revisited is that models and vehicles are a lot faster (Not turn 1 charge range faster, but generally faster), making the S Cannon 24" again would really kill it in our system, it would only be useful on skimmers and not wraithlords or warwalkers any more.

But this is a small point in the general scheme of things (The shuriken cannon being S5 is very different from the scatter laser at S6 - It means you almost always aim at a different primary target)

Good pick up,
yes it should have been cast,

Also,
IC's can join units if they are their retinue (IE this has to have been worked out in the army list before the game - Not just a whim before each individual battle) I'm not to sure if we ahave actually written up a specific rules section on this, but maybe we should add a paragraph in the IC section