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Hi all,

After a period of work and relationship induced absence I have once again succumbed to the lure of IG and Necro and have been lurking for a while as all my old account(s) are tied to inactive email addresses ") .

So, my question is this. In v4 of 40K, is the Las/Plas combo inevitable? All of the IG armies that I have seen on the web treat this as the mainstay squad formation. I assume this is due to tourney play and the proliferation of MEQ's, but can a list still have considerable durability if it shies away from wholly basing its fitout this way?

Cheers

I think its more a function of guardsmen BS3. I think any list needs to have reliable long range punch, more so if your main offensive tactic is shooting. You can achieve volume of fire with IG through squads, regardless of their HW. But to have reliable long range punch, you need multiple lascannons or Autocannons (preferably in infantry squads and not in 6 man weapon squads as these are to vulnerable thus being reliable). In sum, I dont think its inevitable - there is some flexibility there: LC, AC. Also, as long as you have achieved the right long range density, you can surely have other squads armed otherwise - I like HB/plasma or ML/GL.

One alternative to this is to go all ML/plasma gun. I have heard its effective but requires alot of missile launchers and some drop troop vets with MG's to compensate.

One of the big problems is the fact that Ordnance is no longer a semi-reliable vehicle killer. In 3rd edition in a pinch you could count on blasting vehicles with a Basilisk or Russ and even if the blast scattered you still had a pretty good chance of getting a glancing or penetrating hit. Now, if the blast scatters you're pretty much screwed.

That means you really have to count on Guard Heavy weapons more than ever before to do all of your anti-tank work. Sure Missile Launchers and Auto-cannons can take care of lighter vehicles but what happens when you run up against AV14 Monoliths, Land Raiders or enemy Russes?

You really need some Lascannons in your army to deal with these threats. Of course, with screening gone in 4th edition if you just take a couple of Lascannons in your army guess what units your opponent is going to obliterate first turn?

That means if you're going to take Lascannons you kind of have to make them the mainstay in your army so you've always got plenty of AT fire to go around.

Given that the Hellhound, Chimera with Stubber, Russ and Basilisk all excel at killing infantry, it kind of works out now that your tanks kill infantry while your infantry kill tanks.

Pretty much, yeah.

The idea is that you need long range punch, since you're IG, you win through shooting.

As yak already said, you've already got great other options for killing things like hordes of infantry or just lots of troops in general (Russes, Bassy's, Hounds, etc). What you need is anti-tank and anti-Monsterous Creature. Las/Plas brings that and is also very good against MEQ's or other heavily armored troops.

Given that you're looking to maximize that, no other Heavy/Special combo does that better than Las/Plas.

Even moreso than the anti-tank issue is the anti-fast 2+save shooting. You can kill tanks with rocket launchers, autocannons, drop-troops w/ meltaguns, grenades... there are other options for tanks.

Flying tyrants with warp field, flying stature princes... these are why you really need las-plas. Because, with terrain, you may well only have one turn to shoot it before it hits your lines, and it will eat most of a guard army. So, you have to make that turn count, and to do that, you need to get past the 2+ save. Rockets and autocannons cannot do that. Grenade launchers can't do that. Without reliable high strengh AND low AP guns, you're SOL if you run into one of these.

They're the best weapons for killing Marines. Marines and equivalents (Chaos Marines, Inquisition Marines, Necron Marines, etc.) make up easily 80% of 40K armies. Pretty easy to see why things are tilted towards killing Marines.

Another factor in the proliferation of las/plas as the staple for IG is the death of Rhino Rush. In 3rd edition, you'd want enough autocannons to stop Rhinos, but in the new rule set they are in no way threatening. The increased threat of Falcons might swing the pendulem back to autocannons, but the Lascannon is simply too much better at every other threat to give up.

The lascannon is the best heavy weapon against the following threats:
Flyrant
non-Dakka fex Zillas in general
Daemon Prince
Any armor AV12 or higher, including Falcons, Hammerheads, Monoliths, landraiders, etc. (barring wave serpents)
Terminators

There is also process of elimination. the flexibility promised by the Missile Launcher isn't required in an army with 12-20 heavy weapons. IG don't need generalists, it can take enough weapons to have enough specialists. Autocannons are only AP4 and S7. The second shot makes them great at what they're good at (light to medium vehicles, models with great cover/invulnerable saves), but it really pales compared to the LC. Heavy bolters are readily available on Chimeras and other vehicles, and the prospect of killing 1 or 2 Orks a turn with a HB is less appealing than a chance to pop AV14. The mortar, or course, is simply pants.

Finally, the cost difference between the weapons is noteworthy, but not when viewed as part of the cost of the squad. A heavy bolter/flamer squad is only 19pts cheaper than Las/plas. Gun to my head, I'd rather take four Las/plas squads than 5 Heavy bolter/flamer squads.

@Polonius: I agree, except when you say that the lascannon is the best weapon against Falcons (when under SMF). The autocannon is its equal in this respect (one shot with a 3+ chance to glance vs. two shots with a 5+ chance to glance).

I read it differently. To me he is saying Falcons may make Autocannons make a come back.

They certainly will not. Autocannons merely equal the chance of a Lascannon of glancing a Falcon.

So you get the same chance to glance, but are drastically less effective vs. everything else he listed there, including rank and file Space Marines.

Edit: never mind just ran the numbers. The chance to glance a falcon is indeed identical.  Good point Voodoo, although I think there is a view that the 2 shots helps vs. skimmers (indeed the AC is slightly better vs. lascannons vs. Wave serpents due to the power field rule, but worse vs. Tau armor 13).

lascannons are still the best against falcons, they are just tied with the autocannon. On the off chance you get to fire at a falcon that hasn't moved 6" (immobilized or turn one) the lascannon is superior due to broader "penetrate" range.

Against Wave Serpents the autcannon is better, since the lascannon is reduced to S8 against it.

I think if mech eldar (and to a lesser extent mech tau) continue to thrive, than autocannons might become more common, but I misspoke when I said it was because of the Falcon. It would be because of Wave Serpents.

However, I think that for competitive purposes, we're about to enter the long dark nightmare of Godzilla Nids, and if it's not AP2, I'm not taking it. My one concession is probobly going to be swapping out missile launchers in my command sections for Autocannons. I generally run two plasma, missile launcher and Iron D., for an 80 pt little squad that can put the hurt down. Adding a few autocannons might be fun, I'm still stockpiling lascannons.

I can't imagine why you'd ever, ever take Autocannons. They're really just that bad. So Autocannons are better vs. Wavesperpents? Ok, that's one tank that isn't taken very often. Likewise, every other tank, you're better off with the Lascannon, which is better vs. all the other stuff mentioned.

Even with Mech Tau, you're better off with Lascannons against Hammerheads and they're the same vs. Devilfish. Likewise you want Lascannons to shoot at sometimes exposed Broadsides or Crisis Suits (if you could flush them out, etc).

Likewise things like Zilla and the new Chaos with lots of Oblits and 2x Flying DP's being the possible new Norm, you're once again stuck looking at the Lascannon pretty much standing above every other heavy weapon, just like the Plasma gun is better than all the specials most of the time.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 07/19/2007 12:50 PM
I can't imagine why you'd ever, ever take Autocannons. 

Cause they look cool.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/dkkauto.htm

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I often take one squad of three autocannons in games where i know i will be playing av12 or lower vehicles, such as marines, IG, Eldar, Tau, etc. For 95 points you get a squad with great range that is often overlooked by your opponant and can sit back in heavy cover and just shred light vehicles. It costs the same as a las plas squad but has far better odds of taking down most any transport on the field.

If your opponant makes it a priority to take them out (which is not hard to do), so be it, they cost nothing more than a las plas squad.

However, in the league i play in, you know who you are going against, so we can all tailor our focres to our opponant, whereas in a tourny you dont have that ability.

Autocannons are better vs. non-skimmer AV 12 and less (in that you've got, on the whole more chances to do damage).

That aside:

Las/plas is the inevitable result of the poor "AP" system that 40k uses, where the strength of the weapon is completely decoupled from how effective it is against infantry, and armor penetration is simply a binary "gets a save/doesn't get a save" check.

Plasma guns and lascannons max out the (available) effectiveness against both verhicle and non-vehicle targets. Melta has a place, when it can be taken in numbers in a single, mobile squad. A similar argument can be made for flamers. But when it comes to a line squad, you can pretty much ignore the options.

As Reecius said, a lot of the effectivness of autocannons are in fire support squads. I don't run any in my line squards right now, they're all HB/F, ML/P, or LC/P.

the key to autocannons is to not think of them as a downgrade to the LC, but as an upgrade to a heavy bolter. Use them where you'd use a heavy bolter, and see the difference!

Personally I would just oppt for a lascannon in the unit. To me, having a Lascannon and plasma gun is a waste of points. Jo with 2x p Guns and medic is something worth taking.

 

Even in my marine army I do not run Las/plas units. Thou, I have not lost a game yet and this army was formed in 3ed. Two armies I have yet to face with it, Full IG drop would die from rapid fire. Next would be the full IG conscript army, thou I would think it would die to rapid fire as well.

Lascannons are better than autocannons against falcons. More chance of a glance.

Autocannon is better than a Lascannon.

2 shots. 1/3 glance, 2/3 glance
1 shot 2/3

Same chance of glancing, cheaper price tag.

Lascannon~ TASTES GREAT!

Autocannon~ LESS FILLING!

You guys are hysterical.  One mathematician throws some numbers up proving the lascannon is better and some statistician fires back with proof that the autocannon is better.  Where is Bob Uecker, probably in the cheap seats yelling down, "Just use drop troops with meltaguns to kill the tanks, you number mongers!"

I don't consider Bob Uecker's opinions on 40K particularly valid.

Thanks for the perspectives guys, however all of this is premised on the assumption of a mixed force.

Whilst I remember how true 'Infantry kill tanks, tanks kill infantry' rang when it was first included in tacticas all those years ago, I was wondering how an all-infantry (not necc drop troops) balances the need for the efficiency of the Las/Plas against the lack of templates usually available to a mixed force list?

I've been toying with an all infantry list (not conscript horde), and whilst I think it can be relatively competitive in tournament play I was woried about how it would fare against horde armies.

Cheers

Posted By frenrik on 07/19/2007 6:06 PM
Autocannon is better than a Lascannon.

2 shots. 1/3 glance, 2/3 glance
1 shot 2/3

Same chance of glancing, cheaper price tag.

Same effectiveness vs AV12, for a cheaper price tag.

It's also drastically less effective against AV13, AV14, Monsterous Creatures, Units with 2+ saves, Units with 3+ saves, etc.

Buying lots of Lascannons is never a bad decision, where as buying lots of Autocannons can be.  Especially when you dont' know who you're facing.

The only factor not noted however Voodoo, is the price (for IG). Since the price for lascannons was raised out of proportion to their MEQ foes, on a point for point basis autocannons may be superior (I don't have the book here to compare the actual costs bewteen the two).

Not really an issue at all.

Even if the Autocannon is better vs. AV12 point for point than a Lascannon, you pay the extra points for the Lascannons because it's more useful against many other things. In fact it's much more useful against a much wider range of targets than the Autocannon is, which would put it at more than worth the extra points it costs.

Though certainly if you knew you were only going to play against Mech Eldar and as such took nothing but Autocannons, then that's fine. But when the Mech Eldar player turns into the hybrid eldar player with Wraithlords, avatars, and then Falcons, you're going to be glad you took the Lascannon.

I like autocannon, they look good and get the job done. But then I have enough lascannon to make sure that the lascannon jobs get done so I can afford to be choosy.
I hate how 40K rulese panders to the minimaxer. Take 'lascannon and nothing else' yawn, I would rather play chess, and I hate chess. You could a so called 'better' s00per kewl army with lots of las/plas, I wont argue the statistics with you, but I will look at the price tag. 40K is expensive game, Guard most of all, so why make it boring to play?

Mininmax distain aside:

1) Plasma guns are for marines, I find Guardsmen outside of command squads and elite squads die too quickly while using them, Bs3 and 5+ Sv is a bad combo for plasma. Consequently my lascannon guard squads have a lascannon, thats it.

2) Anti tank squads. 85pts for one lascannon, 110pts for three lascannons. This is considered not worth it because of survivability. People who think that need to look beyond the spreadsheet. Guard defend by and large, and unless you are playing on a billiard table you will have some form of terrain cover. Set up your anti tank squad behind that, out of sight. When my carnifex advances you shoot him in the sides. Alterbnately buy cameloeoline and set them up right at the back in he heaviest cover possible. Six guardsmen with 3+ saves that can only be shot at by heavy weapons cease to be an easy target but continuwe ro be a threat.
In all this remember that you need approx three squads of lascannon guard per anti tank squad. Guard cannot afford an all the eggs in one basket approach even with 3+ cover saves.

3) Lascannon sentinels do work. Vulnerable, yes, but at 55pts each for a lascannon. Othr options are better though.


4) Next work out exactly how many lascannon you need. The way I work this out is on a 4:1 ratio. Four lascannon fire, two miss one inconveneinces the target and one makes the kill. This will deal with a tank (Eldar excepted) or lone character models. Monstrous creatures require two lascannon per wound. However your lascannon fire every turn so when you have totalled up the number of lascannon needed half it, no more no less. Its a reasonable guess to say that 'every lascannon gets to fire on turn one and turn two, then they are all dead on turn three'. Its not true of course but an average game averages out that way.

5) Once you have worked out the number of lascannon you need play by the number. Sure you could r0xx0r by still filling every squad with lascannon, buit if your local nid player is generous enough to only take a single tyrant and carnifex play fair back. Nevertheless if facing maxed out nidzilla you will never have enough lascannon unless you take him on without massed heavy weapon platoons, though plasma evens the odds. For plasma do the same calculations as with lascannon but count each plasmagun only once for one turn only. This takes into account those which start the game out of range, those that blow up, S7 vs S9 etc. Remember these are only forward estimates and is slightly pessimistic, when planning tactically you should always round your own firepower down.

6) Fill up with other heavy weapons and special if you have the space. I have come to quite enjoy my two grenade launchers You will also have the advantage of versatility. Not with grenade launchers, they are only for fun and because I got plenty in ther bits box. I count versatility with command squads. For me the loadout to go with is meltagun and flamer. There are exceptions. If a squad is to be sent forward to suicide rush massed meltas or flamers are better, l but that it what veterans are best for, though flamers are swapped for plasma to take advantage of Bs4. For sit back command squads specialising is a mistake.
Let my explain why. The enemy is coming for you, not the other way around. Your squad is there for its leadership bubble and is mostly static, it also cannot move very fast. Therefore as the enemy is incoming and probably faster they will dictate points of contact, you get to defend with the short range qweapons that 'just happen' to be nearby. If the enemy going to purposefully send tanks against your melta command squad or stealers near to your flamers command, I thought not. So you will need to keep your opportunistics command squad attacks as versatile as possible. If you must take a choice take melta everywhere as you can replace flamer firepower with lasguns.

7) Please remember that after all the stats have said and done the best anti MEq/GEq weapon is the mighty lasgun. That is assuming your oppionent doesnt bunch up in front of Hellhounds or battlecannon. Lasgun may look crap, they are crap, but in numbers they count and are all too often overlooked. The BIGGEST SINGLE MISTAKE GUARD PLAYERS MAKE is too focus too much on the squad heavy weapon. Sure at the begginning of the game your 48" lascannon can combine to drill holes in all the enemies best stuff, but when the enemy gets close you are often better off looking for something you can shoot with the whole squad. Lets face it if you could take an Heavy 8 24"/Assault16 12" S3 Ap- weapon on as survivable platform you would consider it!

8) All in all too many Guard players look at the heavy weapon stats, max out, sit back, and blast away. But its an all or nothing 'tactic', if you are lucky the front wave will be stopped and the rest will be annihilated by your unrestricteed firepower turn after turn. At other times you will miss a few but critical shots on turn two and get locked into close combat. The enemy will follow up the advance unmolested and by turn six all your army lies face down as martyrs to the Imperium. At this point most players go back to army builder and try to squeeze in more lascannon, try to think beyond this.

The thing that makes all infantry guard a thing of beauty is that all of your opponents anti-tank guns basically become worthless.  Who cares if you have 18 bright lances or 15 lascannons.  You are only picking off 6 point guardsmen.  As far as anti-horde, well flammers and demo charges work wonders, however most "horde" armies are either t3, or have a 6+ save, or both.  Lasguns are actually worth while against them, instead of just being "bonus" kills. 

Orlanth, Your reply looks good but I would have to change a few of your statements

1)Plasma guns are for guardsmen. Anyone not toting a melta or flamer should have plasma. 24inch range, str7 AP2! AP2 is the key here. The plasma gun can touch anything on the table that walks. Who cares if a few die to overheat. You play guard, you should have plenty

2)Agree with what you say about the anti-tank squads

3)Lascannon sentinels. Vulnerable, yes, at 55pts each for a lascannon. Othr options are better though

4)Lascannon ratio is 6 to 1. It takes 6 lascannons to deal with one av 14 target. I consider 6 lascannons the bare minimum for an 1850 point list

5)Did not really follow you hear. Basically if you have a line squad, the guy should be toting a plasma gun. Command squads and vets its debatable

6)Remember that sometimes it is just as vital to deny your opponent an area of the board. I have had flamer command sqauds "protect" anti-tank squads.

7)Umm.... No.... Lasgun kills are just bonus against meq's. A squad with 10 lasguns a plasma gun and a lascannon will kill more marines with the special and heavy than with all the lasguns combined.

8) Agree with 8

A key principle that applies not only to IG, but to all armies,  is that every squad of the same durability, should be armed equally.  If you have two squads of IG men one with auto cannon, plasma, and the other with lascannon, plasma, then you have reduced your armies effectiveness.  This is so because your opponent (if he is good) will attack the more expencive squad first, and this will insure that the more expensive squad (also the most effective) will die first and thus will lose the ability to shoot, while the inexpensive squad will survive longer and get more opratunity to shoot.  mathematicaly your are paying 180 pts (95 + 85) to ensure that an 85 pt squad can shoot.  This means you are losing 10 pts in this equation as your list would have equal ability with two 85 pt squads. The key to this is to identify what is the most effective build for that squad, and then to replicate that build throughout the list to ensure you are getting what you payed for.

As yakface said, IG houses loads of good anti troop tanks, but only two good anti troop infantry weapons (heavy bolter, auto cannon), thus it becomes obvious that the tanks primary role must be to fight infantry, and then the infantries roll must be to fight tanks.

The best possible anti tank weapon for IG, is the lascannon, and the lascannon also holds the ability to take out monstrous creatures something else IG tanks can't do.  So it is evident that the lascannon is the best choice for a heavy weapon.

Next looking at the special weapons the only choice is plasma gun.  It matches the range of lasguns, and the ap of the lascannon.  It can be used to compliment the lascannon if shooting a tank within 24", or to bolster anti troop fire when using your lasguns to fight infantry.

Because the lascannon is the best heavy weapon, and the plasma gun is the best special weapon, all of your squads should have them.  Many people argue that this is abusive, and or cheesy, but really what it is, is balanced.  The squad can sit back and shoot tanks, or medium infantry, or it can push up and fight infantry within 24".  Against heavy infantry the lascannon and plasmagun account for the majority of the damage, and against light infantry the lasguns, in combination with the lascannon and the plasma gun, insure a decent amount of damage.

The way I see it, IG works by using battle tanks as primary anti infantry that can also shoot at tanks, while las plas infantry squads primarily attack tanks, but are also able to fight infantry.  Then auto cannon heavy weapon squads provide additional anti infantry, or light armor fire, and deepstriking plasma gun vets, and rough riders with explosive tips counter attack.

So I guess my point is, not only are las/plas combo's inevitable, their logical, and well balanced with the IG list.