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So I was playing with a friend of mine the other day in a 1750 points battle. I was using Black Templars, and my friend (Extrenm54) was using Necrons. I took a Terminator Command Squad with attached Marshal and Reclusiarch with Cenobyte Servitors. I was able to get into assault in turn 3 due to quarter deployment and Righteous Zeal, and proceeded to annihilate his entire army in under three turns.

Extrenm54 and I were both using competitively designed lists in a friendly game. We were both shocked at how quickly the Terminators were able to dice up his units. After a little deliberation as to how such a tactic could be countered, we decided to do a test:

The test battle went as follows:

800-some points of Terminators in the following arrangement:

 

Marshal w/ Lightning Claw, Terminator Armor, Storm Bolter, Crusader Seals

Terminator Command Squad (8) w/ 2 Assault Cannons

Reclusiarch w/ Crozius Arcanum, Storm Bolter, Terminator Armor, 3 Cenobyte Servitors

 

Sword Brethren Terminator Squad (5) w/ 2 Assault Cannons

 

Extrenm54 took about 1800 points of Necrons (basically everything he had except his 10 Scarabs and Nightbringer)

Lord w/ Veil, Res Orb

Lord w/ Res Orb, Phylactery

Immortals (5)

Warriors (2 squads of 10, 1 squad of 20)

Destroyers (2 squads of 3)

Monolith

 

The terrain was pretty light, with just a couple pieces of LOS-blocking terrain. He set up his army, and I set up about 24" away with only minor cover.

The terrifying thing for both of us with this test battle (I'll reiterate that this was a test battle, and that we were simply trying to figure out how Necrons could stand up to a ton of 2+ save models) was that although I lost the 5-mand Termie squad and 3 members of the command squad to his guns, I was able to Rend the Monolith to death and kill about 5 Warriors before I RZ'ed into him. From there, my fearless command annihilated his entire 20-man with attached Veiling Lord before he could even run away, which was followed by a consolidate move into his 5 Immortals w/ attached other Lord. Before he could get away, I followed up by wiping out the Immortals and Lord and consolidated into one of the ten-man squads.

After wiping them out, the Terminators turned around, moved and assaulted into his Destroyer squad which he had turboboosted away (moving them right over the assault from the previous turn, leaving them only about 9" away from the terminators.

At this point, we had to stop for a second and let the whole thing soak in. The Black Templars Terminators had, after losing 3 members of the squad, singlehandedly killed more than 2/3 of his army. To make a long story short, the two destroyer squads were killed which left his last remaining Warriors backed into a corner, which were dispatched so quickly, he wasn't even able to phase out.

All that said, the two of us have come to Dakka with a plea for advice and help: How the hell can Necrons fight Terminator-heavy army? I felt really bad after completing this test, which has led us to the conclusion that Terminators (and Black Templars armies with Terminators in particular) are an end-all to Necrons. By themselves, about 850 points of Terminators had killed more than 1800 points of Necrons, while only losing about 360 points of stuff themselves. If in an army, they would have soaked up so much fire that the rest of the Templars would have been able to close the distance to get into Assault with almost no enemy fire.

If this is a pattern that other Necron players (or opponents of Necrons) experience, we must know how you all deal with opponents. I offered up the idea of taking 9 Heavy Destroyers, but he paled slightly at the thought of having to spend almost 200 bucks just to stand a chance against 2+ save units. If there's no reasonable counter (his nightbringer was annihilated in many of the games it was used in by rending AssCans, Multi-Melta fire, and long range Lascannon/ML sniping after killing a grand total of four models in shooting), then Templars (with Termies) are incredibly, unfavorably stacked when combating Necrons.

If Templars with RZ terminators can do all of that, then I'm not going to go up against his necrons with them - it would be unsporting and no fun for my opponent.

Please help us out. Any advice is appreciated.

CK

It is a tough battle, but not nearly as bad as you make it out to be some things that you may have missed.

1)You can not rend the monolith. The assault cannons are useless against it.
2)The center of the monolith's template is ap1, and can snipe out characters..... Use it
3)Terminators should never get into close combat vs destroyers, never, never, never. If such a thing happens you need to really check out your tactics.
4)Stay out of close combat. Everything you have moves as fast or faster than the termines. Also a lot of your guns have a longer range. Add to the fact that you can always veil away when the termies look like they are going to be able to assault.... even vs a 2+ save you should win the shooting battle.

I'd wholeheartedly agree with foil.

Our groups own Necron player has a tough battle against a lysander wing but it's not that one sided.

In theory, Pariahs would work against Power Fisting Terminators, assuming they were able to avoid all that shooting. I might suggest some scarab swarms to tie up L. Claw Terminators for a few rounds. Perhaps a Deciever/Flayed Ones/Rez Orb combo? The Terminators would (likely) hit only on 6's. Add a Gaze of Flame Lord to deny the extra attacks from charging.

Just early-morning musing....

@Foil:

1) Are you sure that the Monolith cannot be damaged by Assault Cannons?

The part of the Living Metal rule that states that weapons use their unaugmented strength states that they may only use a single D6. However, the Assault Cannon's rending hit does not modify the strength of the weapon, nor adds an extra die for armor penetration. It simply adds 6 to the armor penetration roll. By that logic, taking Tank Hunters would be a worthless upgrade because you wouldn't be able to add one to your armor penetration roll.

2) When you're shooting a squad with a character, he's a member of the squad, and cannot be picked out in shooting. Sure, one of the hits inflicted in such a case will be AP1, but it will not be the one character the template is placed on. Ordnance sniping doesn't exist.

3,4) My opponent kept moving his Destroyers back, keeping them out of assault. He fell back with everything he could whenever I got too close, but to little avail. The insane thing about all of this is that with the 3 Cenobyte Servitors, my Righteous Zeal roll allowed me to move an additional 4 to 9 inches towards my opponents.

This entire squad can move up to 15" before shooting and assaulting. Black Templars Terminators are incredibly fast when a Reclusiarch and Marshal are with them (with the Reclusiarch being the Command Squad attached character), and I was able to overrun my opponent, who at this point in the game had been backed into a corner.

Again, I have to reiterate that Black Templars are Fearless in close combat, so no matter how many casualties Extrenm54 inflicted, my Terminators stuck around and kept fighting. It is also worth knowing that I Righteous Zealed into his 20-man Veil squad, moving almost 20" that turn: I killed the entire squad in shooting and assault before he could do anything.

Foil, with Cenobyte Servitors in the Command Squad, I'd literally need a 1 or 2 on the RZ roll (and that's after using my Crusader Seals to reroll) in order to be unable to shoot back at a squad that fired on me from 36" away. My opponent was moving away wherever possible, but I backed him into a tabe edge by turn 4.

@Bartius:

I don't know the specifics of Lysander Wing, but I'm pretty sure that they don't have the ability to move an extra 1-6" (4-9" with 3 Cenobytes) at the end of the enemy shooting phase, nor do they have troops that become Fearless in Assault. The combination of these two allows Templars to nearly outpace Jump Troops.

@ForceVoid:

The problem with using Pariahs is that they don't get WBB, and they're 36 points each. Granted they have better shooting than a basic Terminator, but when you consider the fact that the squad I'm referring to in particular had a Marshal with a Lightning Claw and a Chaplain with a Crozius, those two Init.5 models can dish out 10 attacks on the charge. Even with T5, the Pariahs will lose 3-4 models, and then be SOL when attempting to kill enough models in the squad to do serious damage.

Scarab Swarms are only good for collecting dust on a shelf. Even as tank hunting units, there are too many guns an army can throw against them that would rip them to pieces.

Void, I'll say again that these Terminators are of the Black Templars Chapter: They are Fearless in CC. Flayed ones get annihilated, and the Lord would stand up only to get knocked down.

@Everyone:

Sorry if I sound angry, it's just frustrating for both myself and Extrenm54 that we can't throw together two army lists and have a fun game if Terminators are involved.

CK

Good point, I did forget that Templars were Fearless in CC.

1) Indeed tank hunters are a worthless option as you can not take you +1 to armor vs the monolith. You only get the base strength of the weapon +d6. Thats hit. Living metal rule came into play because monoltihs were dropping left and right to tank hunting lascannon squads.

2)Read the rule a bit more carefully. The model, not the unit takes a strength one hit if the hole is directly over it. This has been discussed many times. One of the very few weapons in the game that can snipe characters, is the monolith ord template. Pretty much it and the exidus rifle are the only two that have this power.

3)Your point being? Destoryers can turbo boost. You should never be able to catch them

4)Ok let me break down how I would fight your army.

Deployment: I deploy toward the middle rear of my deployment zone, warriors in the middle, monolith in the middle front, destroyers on one flank, immortals on the other
First turn I shoot with what I can, very little movement.
Your first turn: You come charging at me, if you deplyed as far foward as you could by this point you would be near the middle of the board.
Second turn: I veil a unit of warriors behind you in your deployment zone, destroyers move foward hugging left board edge, immmortals move foward hugging right board edge (or what I need to stay away but be in shooting range of you) Monolith continues up the middle warriors may adjust backward depending on the range.
Your second turn, now you have to make a choice, you are effectivly surrounded, Split up, and have each unit go after a different point in the army, or stay together and pick a target to neutralise. Either way, between the veil of darkness, and the monolith teleportation It will be very difficult for you to catch me. You might at most take out one sacrifical unit while eating guass fire all game.

Got a question for you, I am a bit fuzzy on the templar rules. Do you have to move toward the first unit that causes you casualties, or is it any direction you want?

Posted By Corpsman_of_Krieg on 08/01/2007 8:34 AM
@Foil:

1) Are you sure that the Monolith cannot be damaged by Assault Cannons?

The part of the Living Metal rule that states that weapons use their unaugmented strength states that they may only use a single D6. However, the Assault Cannon's rending hit does not modify the strength of the weapon, nor adds an extra die for armor penetration. It simply adds 6 to the armor penetration roll. By that logic, taking Tank Hunters would be a worthless upgrade because you wouldn't be able to add one to your armor penetration roll.

This is all explained rather plainly here: http://us.games-workshop.com/errata/assets/necrons_faq_v4-0.pdf And yes, Tank Hunters is worthless against the Monolith.

Templars move toward the nearest unit if they take casualties.
If they have a chaplin equivilant they can move any direction.

But since they are required to charge if able the lith can keep them pinned down prety easily. Just sit there and not die to powerfist attacks and tank shocking it in such a way that if they try to advance on the necron army they will just assult the lith again. Easily done as the lith base is huge and they cant use the assult move to go towards the necrons.

@foil:

1) I checked the Rending rules and checked the FAQ Lordhat provided. I stand corrected. This helps him out a lot in terms of survivability - thanks for the info.

2) The Monolith sniping rule is pretty helpful for him, pretty frustrating for me. I can definitely see that it helps the thing out a lot.

3) In the game I described in my first post (850 pts Terminators vs. 1800 pts Necrons), I backed his destroyers into a corner, to the point where when he did turbo-boost, I ended up shooting and assaulting him. I understand your argument that his 24" move could get him away, but considering the fact that he couldn't get past the squad without taking 8 AC shots to the face (not to mention all the storm bolters). He just didn't have enough room.

Cypher is right on about the RZ rules.



This all has helped out quite a lot already, all. Now that we know his Monolith isn't going to drop like a $2 whore, I think that a large-scale battle against a pair of them would be interesting, especially since my only antitank is a pair of Missile Launchers and a Pair of Lascannons.

Just to make sure, but the AP1 rules aren't negated by Living Metal, correct?

CK

Correct on the AP1.





I know the rules for BT CK I've been playing a BT army myself for a few years now.

The point I was making is that it's necrons facing a sh*t load of termi's.

Another useful piece of tactica for your Necron playing friend is to concentrate all his fire power per turn on one unit. The amount of shooting a Necron army can produce should manage to wipe a termi sqd out denying them and the rest of the army a RZ move.

RZ can be great but can also be a right pain sometime - having units fall forward on their own into the range of all the opposing guns for instance. Your frind could use this tactic to bring your command squad forward from the rest of the BT line then annihilate it at 24" range.

There is some good advice in this thread for your friend.

I'm sure your games from here on in will be a lot more challenging for you.

Enjoy.

RZ is not a detriment for terminators at all as they can move and fire freely. They were either going to advance anyways and would be in the same locaiton or would chose to use their movment phase to move back again.

As the free movement happens after all shooting is over termies it can only help termies. The only time it is a problem is when they move into assult range of something nasty.