Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm going to start playing this in pickup games (if I ever get time to play some pickup games). So I made some slight mods, and wanted to get some input.

HQ: jr officer, vet w/standard

2 lascannon AT squads

Cannoness, book, bp/pw, jumppack

2 identical platoons:

Command squad, heavy bolter

2 squads with plas/heavy bolter

2X8 rought riders

6 seraphim, flamers, vet, book, power weapon

Heavy weapon platoon:

command squad, heavy bolter

3 lascannon teams

2 bassies with indirect.

So, as always, what's going to give me problems? All you guys that just got back from the Chicago GT, how would this list have done, specifically against you or opponents you faced.

If I do this army, every model is going to be a conversion, and I'm going to include at least two models that I'm going to enter in Golden Daemon (no hope of winning, but I want to at least enter), so I want to have a good idea I can be competitive with this before I commit to doing it.

Wow, a kinder, gentler Mauleed army.

Which doctrines?

Lessee:

Anti-TMC/AT firepower cosists of 9 lascannons, in 3 six-man squads (and 4 plasma guns, spread across 4 full infantry squads where exist also your heavy bolters). I don't know that that's the best mix, simply because a devourer Flyrant (not standard for 'Zilla nids, but Dakka Detachment 1 made excellent use of them) will remove a full squad in one volley; very few armies would have any problems reducing your lascannon collection by at least 3/turn. Unless you can guarantee clear lines of fire out to at least 24" (and preferably 30") for those lascannons, you may hemorage AT weaponry faster than you can trim down your opponents.

Why HB/plas? Consider AC/plas. Better, go las/plas in ~6 line squads, and take an AC fire support squad (or two, if you can salvage points).

Between the Seraphim, the Cannoness, and 2 squads of Rough Riders, you may actually have too much counter-assault. They are also your only mobile elements, though, and so I guess they stay.

The Bassies are fine, terrain allowing, as the only armored targets in the list.

Doctrines could greatly impact how the list plays: light infantry on your lascannon squads, for example, adds a whole different dimension. Camelioline would similarly alter the dynamic. Need more input from you, I guess, on how you're planning on playing it out.

Well, the idea would be that the lascannons get preferential placement in cover. So I know they'll die fast, but not too fast. The only time I think anyone will be able to trade shots with these units is when I can't get into cover, and there's too much terrain on the board so the units can't support each other and they can end around each individually.

The reason I haven't swapped around the lascannons to the line squads and then moved heavy bolters to the support squads is that  I don't want to waste the lasgun shots when I don't have to. I'm very light on Geq killing power, so the idea of either losing ~80 lasgun shots or the lascannon shots when I need to rapidfire on something about to assault me has me worried. Basically, the lasguns and heavy bolters want to shoot the same things, so that's why they're together.

But I should probably do the math on that.

80 shots, 40 hits, 20 wounds, alot of dead gaunts. Nah, pretty sure I don't want to give that up.

I'm considering dropping a bassie to either get cameoline in the list, or light infantry. 3+ cover guardsmen are attractive. Guardsmen setting up last are also very attractive.

 

Oh, and for doctrines I'll just use heavy weapon platoons, rough riders, close order drill and drop troops, and have one free if I think of something.

Now what about conscripts? Are 30 LD 10 consripts that useful? Alot of things can chew through that pretty fast, and the combat is sure to get in my way. I'm inclined to just use my rough riders and seraphim for hth duty, and play the break and shoot game with anything they can't cover.

The point is that some targets will be happy to trade fire with you. Take the hypothetical devourer-tyrant: 12 twin-linked re-rolled wounds S5 shots at BS 4. He's going to hit with 10-11 of them, and wound with 9-10 of them. In 5+ (forest) cover, that's one whole lascannon squad gone. As he flies, he gets to first-strike you, and his dakka fex buddies also walk closer. Your turn, you have 6 BS 3 lascannons left to kill the Tyrant, and 2-3 Dakkafexes who'll be in range next turn. What do you do, Ed, what do you do?



Lasguns are, admittedly, occasionally useful. And yes, generally they're for shooting at targets you'd point a HB at. But if you're looking for a truly competitive list, you've got 3 metagame scenarios to account for: Drop Pods, Mech Eldar, and 'Zilla Nids. Plan for those, and your tactical prowess can probably see you through other mainstream armies. And massed lasgun fire doesn't factor in too often in these scenarios.



Iron Discipline is NOT optional in an army relying heavily on a few heavy weapons squads. You need your 2 surviving lascannons firing until the bitter end. Lose Drop Troops first.

Conscripts - you don't need 'em; your counter-assault is quite adequate as-is.

Well, actually even if I lose one squad of lascannons, I still have 12 left. That drops a tryant in a single turn. And I've got range on him, so it's not like he's going to be smashing squads at will like that. He's going to have to come to me. And if the guns don't get him, there are plenty of rough rider happy to do it as well.

But that's probably the worst case scenario. Nothings going to hit that harder than that.

I'll make sure I model it though so I can swap the guns from one unit to another. So if I find you're right, I can switch it around.

And I think you have to metagame for gaunt and stealer heavy nids as well. The 120 gaunt + godzilla list is pretty effective to, even if unpopular due to model count, and C99's army is bound to become more popular now.

 

Posted By Janthkin on 08/01/2007 10:51 AM
Anti-TMC/AT firepower cosists of 9 lascannons, in 3 six-man squads (and 4 plasma guns, spread across 4 full infantry squads where exist also your heavy bolters). 

He's actually got 15 Lascannons.  6 in his HQ and 9 in his Heavy Weapons Platoon.

I was actually thinking about doing something very similar and am interested to know how you do.

You know, that's the part I was missing. I kept reading his Heavy Support platoon as "3 lascannons", rather than "3 squads of 3 lascannons each." So much for the kinder, gentler Ed Maule.



While I am thrilled at Bill's victory, and was equally happy DD1 did so well at Adepticon with the stealer shock, I don't see it becoming as popular as, say, Godzilla Nids or Mech Eldar. It has some bad match-ups (skimmers!), is fairly reliant on some decent mid-board terrain, and is much less of a "pick up and play" army.

But given your ACTUAL lascannon count, I have fewer concerns with your army. Some autocannons would still be nice, but aren't crucial. Protect your mobility, as any objective-based mission remains seriously problematic. Watch for falling librarians.

Yeah, no one will be able to trade broadsides with you, your fire output is too high.

I am assuming the Jr. Officer has an HI? if not, it is crucial, rerollable Ld9 is fnatastic for keeping the grunts around.

Like Janthkin said, Iron Discipline is not optional in a shooty gunline army like this. It is neccesary.

Other than that, the biggest weakness is lack of mobile scoring units.

My last piece of advice ties in with another of Janthkin's points. I have lost games beacause of a god damned dropping libby that forced half of my army off of the board, or kept them pinned from the far corner with FoA. One of the most useful tools i have found in a Gaurd army is a unit i stole from Darrian13. The inquisitor lord with three mystics, emperor's tarot and a pyschic hood.

The unit gives you defense against deepstrikers, and psychics which are both big achilles heals for Gaurd. Plus it can give you access to the callidus or eversor which are both great tools.

I have found the unit to be a great addition to my army.

Fear not.

The cannoness with the book makes any unit within 6" test on her unmodified LD10. So all the good stuff is testing on LD10 with a reroll vs, fear. Not a problem. And she's got a jumppack to put that LD10 where it's needed.

And the Seraphim have the book too, so they can cover half the army with LD9.

So I'm not too worried about LD, and that's why I left just a Jr. Officer as the HQ.

The inquisitor with mystics is easy to counter. You drop in a pod, so they don't even get to shoot, and then kill them first, and shoot the librarian last, after the hood is gone. And even if you play 'shoot the pod or the unit getting out' due to some chicago rule change, the guys still just get out on the other side of the pod and gamble that fear goes off.

The cannoness is a much safe, and cheaper, counter. And she brings two faith points for the seraphim.

Depends on which codex you're using whether mystics work or not vs pods.

Good point.

I haven't played with or against any but vanilla pods.

But under the new codii, wouldn't the mystics only let you shoot the pod, which unless you destroy it, has no effect on the unit getting out?

OK, here's a fine tune of the list, taking suggestions into consideration. Changes in bold.

HQ: jr officer, vet w/standard, Iron Discipline.

2 lascannon AT squads

Cannoness, book, bp/pw, jumppack

2 identical platoons:

Command squad, heavy bolter

2 squads with plas/heavy bolter

8 rough riders

7 Rough riders (so one removed)

6 seraphim, flamers, vet, book, power weapon

Heavy weapon platoon:

command squad, heavy bolter

3 lascannon teams

1 bassie with indirect.

But every guard infantry squad now has cameoline. So buildings are giving my lascannons a 3+ cover save. Nothing outshoots me now! I did lose a pie plate to pay for it, but I think it's a good trade. I should generally either be playing on boards with alot of cover, and benefiting from great cover saves, or playing on boards with little cover and benefiting from tons of LOS.

And this will fit in well with my 'Beastmen Guard' theme, since beastmen would be good in cover.

Can't really comment much on the guard parts of the army but I would suggest finding the points for an evicerator in the seraphim. With the Spirit of the Martyr faith (easy to pull off with only 6 models) you have a hidden powerfist with a 3+ invulnerable save. Mighty useful against, oh I don't know, ANYTHING. Besides, S3 power weapons suck.

Pods enter using the deeptrike special rules, the mystic allows you to designate a friendly unit to shoot at any enemy unit entering play using the deepstrike special rules within 4d6" of the mystics unit.

so yeah, you shoot the pod, but armor 12 open topped is not difficult to destroy. You nominate one of those las cannon squads to shoot and

3 x 1/2 to hit = 3/2 x 1/2 to pin = 3/4 x 2/3 to destroy = 1/2

3 x 1/2 to hit = 3/2 x 1/6 to glance = 1/4 x 1/3 to destroy = 1/12

So you have a 58.3% chance ot destroying the pod, and entangling the guys inside and wounding 3/4 of them.

If that fails, the hood gives you about a 40% chance of stopping the power.


But, the book providing leadership is a nice one, i didnt know it worked on IG as well. you have a decent little bubble of high ldership, plus the ID lets you stay in the fight a lot longer.

I think you have a nice little army here, still the only thing lacking is fast objective takers. all you really have are the ultra fragile rough riders and the seraphim which may be locked up in HtH, but they can use a faith to go invul and jump on an objective last turn.

I understand what mystics do. But vanilla space marine pods don't deep strike, so are immune to the effects of them.

I realise that the Chicago area generally uses the Adepticon FAQ to change that, but that's still not what's in the rules GW sells.  

And how are you getting 40% on the hood? I thought it was 33%.

Posted By mauleed on 08/02/2007 5:53 AM

But under the new codii, wouldn't the mystics only let you shoot the pod, which unless you destroy it, has no effect on the unit getting out?

BA FAQ specifies that the units inside deepstrike too.

OK.

Well that's how it should be, really. Too bad it's limited to just BA (...now that I'm back to guard, haha)

I think what you are overlooking, when you say that you will be able to trade fire with any army, with 5 lascannon squads in your army, is that lascannons are not effective against all armies.  For instance what if your list went against an all infantry IG list, then right off the bat you'd be down 250 pts (compared effect to if they were autocannons, not to mention that autocannons are cheaper). 

Also by putting all of your lascannons in 6 man bundles is WEAK, and I say that as one power gamer to another. Adding lascannons to your infantry squads do not take away lasgun  shots, they give your infantry squads balance, and versatility.  It gives you squads that can fight both light infantry (since lasguns are good here, and your las plas adds a kill) and medium (MEQ) infantry (here relying more on the plas lascannon).  At the same time they can take out tanks with their lascannon.  Also the las plas squad makes the most sense, since the lascannon gives the squad anti tank, the lasguns give the squad anti infantry, and the plasma gun which matches the lasguns range, can support both the lasguns, and the lascannon. 

At the same time auto cannons are the best thing for heavy weapon squads.  Since they give the heavy weapon squads balance.  First and most importantly it makes the 6 man squads cheaper. which is always a GOOD thing for 6 man squads withT3.  Also this allows your heavy weapon squads to take on both armor and infantry.  The only instance where this wouldn't work is if your enemy had AV 14 tanks, but in those situations, there are always other uses for auto cannons(vs guard anti infantry, vs space marines anti skimmer, vs necrons anti destroyers). Also this gives your guard (if you take my advice and give your infantry squads las plas) crucial anti infantry in the first turn when using escalation.

Concerning tanks, you need more.  As I see it at 1750 points you need at least 2 lemon russ battle tanks.  They are absolutely neccisary as no where else will you get the anti infantry they provide, or the flexibility (ie taking out tanks/MEQ/Guard).  If you don't want to run any tanks because you know all armies are packing mass lascannnons now due to the emergence of nidzill (which is why I assume your not using any lemon russ') then you need to take at least 4 autocannon squads, and I would advise not using a basilisk sense indirect fire cripples ordinance, and the basilisk suffers from min 36" range which will take out all the important (IE. going to be in assult next turn) targets.

The final change that I see as neccisary is that your command squads should drop their heavy bolters pick up Iron discipline and become moral squads.  If take my advice you will have atleast 6 las plas squads and 4 heavy weapon squads (4-6 if your not using tanks, 4-2 if you are), All of these squads NEED either LD 9 from the infantry command squads (using close order drill, or LD 8 with rerolls from the regimental command squad.  Also all of your squads NEED ID so you can keep your squads heavy weapon firing to the last man.  Now while one command squad with ID is nice, it prevents you from taking advantage of all the usable cover, and it also forces you to put your command squads in vulnerable spots to keep your armies leadership together.  Cannoness should not be providing leadership.  You payed for there jump packs and cc weapons, they should be assaulting and breaking your enemies charge/ firing lines.  As for you command squad I think you should leave the JO, as a JO because if you need ld 9 with rerolls, you can just put a infantry command squad in close order drill near by, and overlap there bubbles to give you ld 9 with relrolls.

I think those are the only crucial changes, the rest is all about your personal style/ tactical strengths and weakness'.  Personally I think you have to much counter assault, and would  personally switch out 1-2 of your rough rider squads for deepstriking vet squads.  I think that would be stronger, but at the same time I would rather you run the 3 counter assault squads, so you could tell us how effective that build is.

I'll post a remake of your list some other time.  I'd do it now but It's getting late and I'm going to bed.

Good Luck with the power gaming

" For instance what if your list went against an all infantry IG list,"

Good point. Against a 150+ model shooty guard list with lots of anti-troop shooting, I'm boned.

"Adding lascannons to your infantry squads do not take away lasgun  shots, they give your infantry squads balance, and versatility"

I'm not buying that. versatility, when all else is equal, is never better than high effeciency at dealing with a specific and common threat type. I'll take a unit that does one thing the best possible all the time over a unit that does two things not as well as either specialized unit.

"At the same time auto cannons are the best thing for heavy weapon squads"

Got some math to back that up?

"Concerning tanks, you need more.  As I see it at 1750 points you need at least 2 lemon russ battle tanks. "

It was about at this point I stopped taking your post seriously.

Honestly, this is alot of babbling about changes with zero reasoning. It sounds like the sort of advice you'd get from a redshirt in a GW store. What do you do for a living again?

 

This list is pretty good as is.

Even if a good proportion of the enemy get within 36", you'll be glad you have it when facing other indirect shooters (Vibro, defiler, etc.).

I'm not a big fan of weapon squads due to limited ablative wounds, BUT the fact that you're placing so many allows you to saturate the area with tasty targets. Your opponent won't be able to focus on all of them at once.

In this case, 3 LC shots/ unit (5) will be more effective then spreading them out in the line squads.

2 books and the CHQ with flag should hold most of your troopers in place.

I don't care for RR squads being larger than 6, but the points saved don't add up to bring in anything more effective. An AC squad or 2 might be something to look into if you can bring yourself to strip some points elsewhere. Afterall, you know you don't want to loose a squad of LC at a rhino... You know your local area better than I do and I'm confident this will give your opponents a good game.

Flagg, where are you in Jersey?

 

How well does this army do against Mech Eldar? I'm just curious. It seems to be a really balanced force and might be able to deal with Tyranids, but assuming you don't get the first turn the Eldar can move their entire army to achieve local superiority at one portion of your army. You have so many men though that the Harlequins really have their work cut out for them.

This hits the table for the first time tonight, so I have no idea. I'm trying to convince TheOtaku to come over and let me take a pass at his eldar, though they don't fit the standard 'mechanized' eldar mold (I think).

I'm guessing that the harlies will eat a squad or two, then get blasted off the board. Everything else but the falcons gets shot to bitz.

What are lascannons odds against a falcon again? 4% or something? So if I shoot with all my lascannons, a coinflip to drop one? Not too bad really.

 

Edit: looks like 4% was a bit overly optimistic. Oh well. The tank shock should be brutal. Not sure what to do about that.

Protect your mobile assets, suck up the tank shock, and block back hatches to prevent harlies from disembarking in the middle of your firebase.

I'm fairly sure we had the conversation about mobile vs. static Guard the first time you did the all-infantry IG list; 4th ed and the new armies out there make it only a little worse. Suit-heavy Tau and Mech Eldar/Eldar Jetbike armies can cause you grief by just avoiding your guns and nibbling away at the edges via terrain sniping. But you're in good shape otherwise, and a little Basilisk luck can make the combat-avoidance armies suffer.

Which is why I originally wanted 2!

Ok, well it's on my to do list. It's only 3 armies down on the list (but the 1st is 80% done and the 2nd is 50% done).

< singing> You can't always get what you wa-ant...< /singing>

I'll be curious to hear about your initial test games. I thnk you've got more counter-assault than you need, and less mobility than you'll want, but getting that second Bassie back would require quite a bit of tweaking (to preserve the heavy weapon count).

Montclair area. You?

Game 1: Godzilla nids. Loot mission. I barely squeeked a win. I had some pretty bad rolls on the lascannons early. I think he made some mistakes in deployment and could have overwhelmed one of my flanks pretty easily.

Game 2: Marines. seek and destroy. Almost won, turned out to be a tie. Again, some very bad lascannon shooting, but throughout the game. I made plenty of mistakes in this game.

But the games did remind me how boring guard can be to play.

If you're willing to cut out a few RRs, maybe you could fit in sharp shooters for the underperforming weapons squads.

Counter assault-
Too much?
Just right?
Not enough?

Any immediate weaknesses?