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Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

pfft.. dream on chylde, you're nothing but a second... maybe even third rate Egg Fu !




The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





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Frazzled wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
reds8n wrote:.. don't make me take you to school here !


Son, you could try, but I don't think you're ready to play with the big boys. Only one of our names is a reference to a 70s unpopular supervillain.

Thats kind of sad actually...


I'm 24, what are you doing as a mod on a toy forum and how old are you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
reds8n wrote: pfft.. dream on chylde, you're nothing but a second... maybe even third rate Egg Fu !





'Scuse me? I'm a full on Calender man.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/09 20:02:06


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

IN. YOUR. DREAMS.

Time to face who you really are :



NOte the pink costume, further evidence of your twisted liberalism.

I was going to suggest "Blue Snowman" -- old Wonder Woman foe.. but..well... even we have some depths we won't sink to.

..although, for the record, Aquaman could if he needed to and he'd be fine. So there.

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

reds8n wrote:IN. YOUR. DREAMS.

Time to face who you really are :



NOte the pink costume, further evidence of your twisted liberalism.

I was going to suggest "Blue Snowman" -- old Wonder Woman foe.. but..well... even we have some depths we won't sink to.

..although, for the record, Aquaman could if he needed to and he'd be fine. So there.


I didn't want to resort to this, but I'm afraid I have to pull in the big guns.



And when I say big guns, I mean I'm the biggest.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine





NorCal

Monster Rain wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:>>I'm saying that if they need to be killed, they should be.

Without oversight, how do you know they needed to be killed?


I guess I'm naive.

I assume that if you're misbehaving to the point that the CIA considers you an enemy combatant that there's probably some truth there.


This represents a huge problem with the typical American way of thinking, at least to my mind.

The Undying Spawn of Shub-Niggurath
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660749.page


Twitter: BigFatJerkface
https://twitter.com/AdamInOakland

 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Peter Wiggin wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:>>I'm saying that if they need to be killed, they should be.

Without oversight, how do you know they needed to be killed?


I guess I'm naive.

I assume that if you're misbehaving to the point that the CIA considers you an enemy combatant that there's probably some truth there.


This represents a huge problem with the typical American way of thinking, at least to my mind.


No, it just points to the need for a functioning international police force and a UN designed common set of laws for how to handle terrorist activity in an international setting. As it is terrorists are criminals sometimes, soldiers sometimes, civilian sometimes, and none of the above most of the time. There is no clear way to handle these people, and frankly, despite whatever your liberal attitudes may be they need to be dealt with in one way or another by a law keeping force.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




ShumaGorath wrote:
Peter Wiggin wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:>>I'm saying that if they need to be killed, they should be.

Without oversight, how do you know they needed to be killed?


I guess I'm naive.

I assume that if you're misbehaving to the point that the CIA considers you an enemy combatant that there's probably some truth there.


This represents a huge problem with the typical American way of thinking, at least to my mind.


No, it just points to the need for a functioning international police force and a UN designed common set of laws for how to handle terrorist activity in an international setting. As it is terrorists are criminals sometimes, soldiers sometimes, civilian sometimes, and none of the above most of the time. There is no clear way to handle these people, and frankly, despite whatever your liberal attitudes may be they need to be dealt with in one way or another by a law keeping force.


Liberals! Laws! Who needs em! Of course we can trust the CIA to always do the correct thing and police the world for everyone.
   
Made in au
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter






Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)

ShumaGorath wrote:
Peter Wiggin wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:>>I'm saying that if they need to be killed, they should be.

Without oversight, how do you know they needed to be killed?


I guess I'm naive.

I assume that if you're misbehaving to the point that the CIA considers you an enemy combatant that there's probably some truth there.


This represents a huge problem with the typical American way of thinking, at least to my mind.


No, it just points to the need for a functioning international police force and a UN designed common set of laws for how to handle terrorist activity in an international setting. As it is terrorists are criminals sometimes, soldiers sometimes, civilian sometimes, and none of the above most of the time. There is no clear way to handle these people, and frankly, despite whatever your liberal attitudes may be they need to be dealt with in one way or another by a law keeping force.


So who labels who the terrorist? I mean, and internationally recognised definition of the word would be helpful.

Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.

"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
 
   
Made in us
Napoleonics Obsesser






Hmm, interesting. I don't have an opinion, actually News in general disgusts me.


If only ZUN!bar were here... 
   
Made in au
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter






Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)

Samus_aran115 wrote:Hmm, interesting. I don't have an opinion, actually News in general disgusts me.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1140665/Pictured-The-newborn-puppies-survived-thrown-icy-canal.html

Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.

"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Emperors Faithful wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Peter Wiggin wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:>>I'm saying that if they need to be killed, they should be.

Without oversight, how do you know they needed to be killed?


I guess I'm naive.

I assume that if you're misbehaving to the point that the CIA considers you an enemy combatant that there's probably some truth there.


This represents a huge problem with the typical American way of thinking, at least to my mind.


No, it just points to the need for a functioning international police force and a UN designed common set of laws for how to handle terrorist activity in an international setting. As it is terrorists are criminals sometimes, soldiers sometimes, civilian sometimes, and none of the above most of the time. There is no clear way to handle these people, and frankly, despite whatever your liberal attitudes may be they need to be dealt with in one way or another by a law keeping force.


So who labels who the terrorist? I mean, and internationally recognised definition of the word would be helpful.


At the moment individual countries unless they fall into one of the categories that would label them as an international criminal or combatant. Most governments don't want them to fall under those terms though, as they weren't designed to accommodate militancy in this way and make them hard to capture or prosecute.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine





NorCal

ShumaGorath wrote:
Peter Wiggin wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:>>I'm saying that if they need to be killed, they should be.

Without oversight, how do you know they needed to be killed?


I guess I'm naive.

I assume that if you're misbehaving to the point that the CIA considers you an enemy combatant that there's probably some truth there.


This represents a huge problem with the typical American way of thinking, at least to my mind.


No, it just points to the need for a functioning international police force and a UN designed common set of laws for how to handle terrorist activity in an international setting. As it is terrorists are criminals sometimes, soldiers sometimes, civilian sometimes, and none of the above most of the time. There is no clear way to handle these people, and frankly, despite whatever your liberal attitudes may be they need to be dealt with in one way or another by a law keeping force.


Your interpretation of my statement is a little different from the message I was trying to convey. Let me be a bit more clear.

I think its a problem that (I take this on faith for some reason) as an American citizen of above average intelligence simply takes it on blind faith that an organization (ANY organization) without judicial oversight will make the morally and ideologically sound choice when it comes to marking another citizen of America for execution at the hands of our military.


I have no issues with someone being killed for treason, but I don't view it as the sole province of the executive branch to make that choice.

Next I'm going to point out exactly what kind of fallacy you use to discredit my view.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/12/10 01:31:57


The Undying Spawn of Shub-Niggurath
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660749.page


Twitter: BigFatJerkface
https://twitter.com/AdamInOakland

 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

Oversight is oversight. As long as proper procedures are in place to ensure that the process is proper I don't see the problem. The oversight could be judicial, it could be another party functioning under the Legislature or the Executive.

I would surmise that when making these decisions the US intelligence services hands off information to some panel or board that goes over it all and decides what to do (the first level of oversight), and that panel or board is likely covered by another panel or board (the next level) so on and so forth until you reach whatever Congressional committee and/or Executive official that is in charge of these things.

A decision like killing Al-Awaki would have gone through a bunch of different levels of oversight to ensure the process works is fair and proper etc. It can still not work, so I wouldn't suggest the process is perfect (especially since we don't know exactly what it is), but strictly limiting oversight to the judiciary seems flawed, especially when you may need a decision quickly and the executive is best equipped to make quick decisions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/10 01:56:23


   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

How quick do you need it done? You can get a federal warrant quicker than you can get a pizza these days.

the reason you dont' want oversight to be in the same branch, especially the executive, is that fundamentally they all report to a single guy. If a general or bureaucrat wont' sign off, the president can fire him and find somebody who will.

You can't fire a federal judge.
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine





NorCal

LordofHats wrote:Oversight is oversight. As long as proper procedures are in place to ensure that the process is proper I don't see the problem. The oversight could be judicial, it could be another party functioning under the Legislature or the Executive.

I would surmise that when making these decisions the US intelligence services hands off information to some panel or board that goes over it all and decides what to do (the first level of oversight), and that panel or board is likely covered by another panel or board (the next level) so on and so forth until you reach whatever Congressional committee and/or Executive official that is in charge of these things.

A decision like killing Al-Awaki would have gone through a bunch of different levels of oversight to ensure the process works is fair and proper etc. It can still not work, so I wouldn't suggest the process is perfect (especially since we don't know exactly what it is), but strictly limiting oversight to the judiciary seems flawed, especially when you may need a decision quickly.



Hmm, I think the fundamental issue I take with it is that there isn't any consideration taken to the level of transparency demanded by a large portion of the population these days....or at least a disproportionally loud portion of the population. The government is there to serve the interests of the common man, not the other way around.

As for the bolded portion, I probably wouldn't have a problem with Senate or Congressional oversight provided the details of the case were laid out clearly and in a manner that the average citizen could easily understand, not to mention a matter of public record on display for the international community. Targeting a citizen of your country with the military arm of your country is a pretty bid deal in my mind.

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Twitter: BigFatJerkface
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Made in us
Hauptmann




Diligently behind a rifle...

Didn't this guy renounce his citizenship?

Catachan LIX "Lords Of Destruction" - Put Away

1943-1944 Era 1250 point Großdeutchland Force - Bolt Action

"The best medicine for Wraithlords? Multilasers. The best way to kill an Avatar? Lasguns."

"Time to pour out some liquor for the pinkmisted Harlequins"

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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter






Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)

Polonius wrote:How quick do you need it done? You can get a federal warrant quicker than you can get a pizza these days.

the reason you dont' want oversight to be in the same branch, especially the executive, is that fundamentally they all report to a single guy. If a general or bureaucrat wont' sign off, the president can fire him and find somebody who will.

You can't fire a federal judge.


Point.

Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.

"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

Polonius wrote:How quick do you need it done? You can get a federal warrant quicker than you can get a pizza these days.


That's not a bad thing. I've gotten plenty of free pizzas , which is great cause I have 3 dwarves to feed.

the reason you dont' want oversight to be in the same branch, especially the executive, is that fundamentally they all report to a single guy. If a general or bureaucrat wont' sign off, the president can fire him and find somebody who will.


Executive oversights are usually oversought(???) by Congressional Committees. And not everyone who works in the executive branch can be fired, contrary to popular belief. The president can remove most appointees and through his appointees fire other employees but there are some he isn't allowed to touch without an oversight committee/panel/board looking into it first as Congress has passed several laws to check the presidents ability to just what you're talking about (blame Nixon).

I'm not saying never let the Judiciary oversight, just that strict judicial oversight in situations may complicate an issue. The executive is the fastest moving branch and should be used to speed up the process as much as you can without compromising the accuracy of results. (It's the fastest in some ways, we all know that if the pizza is slower than the warrants, the DMV is slower).

As for the bolded portion, I probably wouldn't have a problem with Senate or Congressional oversight provided the details of the case were laid out clearly and in a manner that the average citizen could easily understand, not to mention a matter of public record on display for the international community. Targeting a citizen of your country with the military arm of your country is a pretty bid deal in my mind.


Transparency is good for legitimacy but just because the process is secret doesn't mean that something dirty or underhanded is going on. It is a big deal, but if you're dealing with your enemies, the information used to determine whether or not the US citizen in question is a threat can be dangerous. It can tell what we know and reveal how we know it. I know the whole 'national security' thing gets thrown around a lot these days but there is a legitimate need for some things to remain secret (EDIT: For a little while. The information ideally should be released to public record once the conflict is resolved). It's a nasty balancing game.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/12/10 02:24:12


   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Again, judicial oversight can be made pretty quick. I'd also think that if there is a once in a lifetime opportunity to take out a guy, you take it and try to clear it up later.

You pick a few judges, swear them to absolute secrecy, give them phones. If something comes up, you call them, send the file over. A judge can bounce it back in a half hour. Even for a lengthy case, it's maybe a day.

And yes, there are some people that the president can't just fire. But he can sure make their lives difficult. You can't do that with a federal judge.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.

Peter Wiggin wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:>>I'm saying that if they need to be killed, they should be.

Without oversight, how do you know they needed to be killed?


I guess I'm naive.

I assume that if you're misbehaving to the point that the CIA considers you an enemy combatant that there's probably some truth there.


This represents a huge problem with the typical American way of thinking, at least to my mind.


Right back at you, actually.

You and Jesse Ventura are the only ones that really know what's going on. You think it's silly to assume competence on the behalf of the CIA. I think that this whole "The Government is Evil and Trying to Make it Legal to Kill Us Without Trial" is equally goofy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Polonius wrote:Again, judicial oversight can be made pretty quick. I'd also think that if there is a once in a lifetime opportunity to take out a guy, you take it and try to clear it up later.

You pick a few judges, swear them to absolute secrecy, give them phones. If something comes up, you call them, send the file over. A judge can bounce it back in a half hour. Even for a lengthy case, it's maybe a day.

And yes, there are some people that the president can't just fire. But he can sure make their lives difficult. You can't do that with a federal judge.


This is totally fine. I'm sure it will be what is eventually the system that will be set in place.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/12/10 02:55:06


Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





LordofHats wrote:Oversight is oversight. As long as proper procedures are in place to ensure that the process is proper I don't see the problem. The oversight could be judicial, it could be another party functioning under the Legislature or the Executive.


Nah, the Executive placed considerable political pressure on CIA analysts to giving favourable reports indicating WMDs in Iraq in the build up to the war. That's just the nature of government, and why governments created independant branches in the first place.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Hauptmann




Diligently behind a rifle...

Monster Rain wrote:
Peter Wiggin wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:>>I'm saying that if they need to be killed, they should be.

Without oversight, how do you know they needed to be killed?


I guess I'm naive.

I assume that if you're misbehaving to the point that the CIA considers you an enemy combatant that there's probably some truth there.


This represents a huge problem with the typical American way of thinking, at least to my mind.


Right back at you, actually.

You and Jesse Ventura are the only ones that really know what's going on.



I lol at that guy, I used to like him, until he became a truther.

Catachan LIX "Lords Of Destruction" - Put Away

1943-1944 Era 1250 point Großdeutchland Force - Bolt Action

"The best medicine for Wraithlords? Multilasers. The best way to kill an Avatar? Lasguns."

"Time to pour out some liquor for the pinkmisted Harlequins"

Res Ipsa Loquitor 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Monster Rain wrote:This is totally fine. I'm sure it will be what is eventually the system that will be set in place.


So, earlier on, when I was saying that's what is needed and you were saying 'nah' you were confused, or being boneheaded or what?

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.

sebster wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:This is totally fine. I'm sure it will be what is eventually the system that will be set in place.


So, earlier on, when I was saying that's what is needed and you were saying 'nah' you were confused, or being boneheaded or what?


I guess I was confused. /shrug

I've said a few times that they can treat this like they do wiretapping. Have some judges that they run this sort of thing by to see if there's enough evidence to go on.

Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

Polonius wrote:Again, judicial oversight can be made pretty quick. I'd also think that if there is a once in a lifetime opportunity to take out a guy, you take it and try to clear it up later.

You pick a few judges, swear them to absolute secrecy, give them phones. If something comes up, you call them, send the file over. A judge can bounce it back in a half hour. Even for a lengthy case, it's maybe a day.


That's what I'm talking about, however unclear I may be. Cut out full trial and use an executive/congressional committee to speed the process of information gathering and analysis and get the information to someone who can give a go ahead/no can do. A judge is good for that. I'm most thinking of the idea of a full trial/due process as it is commonly thought of, which is a complication that can drag these issues out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/10 03:04:51


   
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Lincolnshire

It's probably because it's 3am which is why i'm not understanding it well....
But the fact that this guy is calling for a 'Jihad in the west' should be enough for them to throw the case out of court.

"You don't like us? Fine. Suing us for your son's terrorist activities? Well, I know somewhere where you can shove that lawsuit."
   
Made in au
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter






Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)

Wolfun wrote:It's probably because it's 3am which is why i'm not understanding it well....
But the fact that this guy is calling for a 'Jihad in the west' should be enough for them to throw the case out of court.

"You don't like us? Fine. Suing us for your son's terrorist activities? Well, I know somewhere where you can shove that lawsuit."


If you read the article, let alone the thread, that's not the point here.

Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.

"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Stormrider wrote:Didn't this guy renounce his citizenship?


Why do people keep repeating this, like it's true? I don't understand how... permeable reality has become of late. Death panels. Obama's a muslim. Obama was born in Kenya. Saddam was behind 9/11. Al Franken won because someone found a bunch of votes in the trunk of a car. Has it always been this way - that if you want something to be true, just repeat it enough until it is?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/13 06:16:17


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NorCal

Wolfun wrote:It's probably because it's 3am which is why i'm not understanding it well....
But the fact that this guy is calling for a 'Jihad in the west' should be enough for them to throw the case out of court.

"You don't like us? Fine. Suing us for your son's terrorist activities? Well, I know somewhere where you can shove that lawsuit."


Hi, I don't read the articles or the thread either, but I love to comment!

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Twitter: BigFatJerkface
https://twitter.com/AdamInOakland

 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Monster Rain wrote:I guess I was confused. /shrug

I've said a few times that they can treat this like they do wiretapping. Have some judges that they run this sort of thing by to see if there's enough evidence to go on.


Yeah, you got yourself very confused. From earlier in the thread;

sebster wrote:So you agree there should be congressional and judicial oversight on orders to kill?


Monster Rain wrote:Nah.



Seriously, dude, in future just try and think about your position and what you really believe. Getting caught up in just rejecting whatever the other person has written will make discussion a waste of time for you and your opponent.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
 
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