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Eldrad is actually in the Farsight unit. Grey area I admit, but right now everything is pretty vague, so the mom and pop store is letting it slide for now.

Anyhow, my main hate of allies is that its going to be one of those things, like challenge, that just gets used for its abusive nature, except in the case of Damones and CSM. I dislike Fortifications for the same reason. Plus both rules completely exclude Nids (Nids cannot man the guns, even with their crappy BS3), who are not exactly a strong book in either 5th or 6th.

Phazael wrote:Anyhow, my main hate of allies is that its going to be one of those things, like challenge, that just gets used for its abusive nature, except in the case of Damones and CSM.

I think it opens a lot of modelling potential... and lets me field more dreadnoughts, which is awesome! I think you'll see a lot of themed armies, not just people using it to try to abuse loopholes.

Currently the only issue I see with Allies is those combinations that are in the "Battle Brothers" category. These are the ones that I can see having potential to really break armies.

If anything I could see a change for competitive tournaments to adjust the "Battle Brother" category to follow the rules for "Allies of convenience".

However only time will tell if the above actually will break armies or not.

I am torn on the use of Fortifications as from a logistical point of view. I do feel if you are going to use them you can no longer use pre-set terrain (a staple of most tournaments) and players will have to set terrain themselves. I think this can work quite well, but as it is so ingrained to use pre-set tables there will most likely be resistance against this.

Since our tournament scene played 1750 in 5th I doubt the second Force Organisation chart will become an issue. However to me this seems to be more made for 2000+ games and not for those with a limit of 2000 points.

Phazael wrote:Eldrad is actually in the Farsight unit. Grey area I admit, but right now everything is pretty vague, so the mom and pop store is letting it slide for now.

Anyhow, my main hate of allies is that its going to be one of those things, like challenge, that just gets used for its abusive nature, except in the case of Damones and CSM. I dislike Fortifications for the same reason. Plus both rules completely exclude Nids (Nids cannot man the guns, even with their crappy BS3), who are not exactly a strong book in either 5th or 6th.

its not a grey area. Fortune works on Eldar units. Not Dark Eldar. Not Tau, not anything else.

However within that restrction it is possible to pull off some stuff:

If you have an Eldar unit and battle brother allies, then a battle brother IC can join an Eldar unit and that unit can get Fortuned thereby giving the ability to the unit and the joined IC.


Similarly, you can Fortune an Eldar IC on his own and then he can join a battle brother unit and pass Fortune onto that unit. This is one way that a Farsight Crisis Suit unit can get Fortune. However, this ONLY works if you Fortune the IC when he is his own unit and THEN join him unp (so will only last one turn). Once an IC has joined a unit the new rules are very clear that he counts as being part of that unit for all rules purposes (pg 39), so you would NOT be able to cast Fortune specifically onto an IC that was already joined to a unit.

So the net result would be that you're allowed to cast Fortune on a Farseer and THEN have him join a battle brother allied unit to pass the ability onto to them, but you would NOT be allowed to have the Farseer joined to a battle brother allied unit and cast Fortune on that unit, because the unit is not an Eldar unit and the IC isn't allowed to cast it directly onto himself (as he counts as being part of that unit for all rules purposes).

yakface wrote:So the net result would be that you're allowed to cast Fortune on a Farseer and THEN have him join a battle brother allied unit to pass the ability onto to them, but you would NOT be allowed to have the Farseer joined to a battle brother allied unit and cast Fortune on that unit, because the unit is not an Eldar unit and the IC isn't allowed to cast it directly onto himself (as he counts as being part of that unit for all rules purposes).

Which basically translates into you can only manage it every other turn, as the Farseer will have to split off before he can do it again.

Phazael wrote:Anyhow, my main hate of allies is that its going to be one of those things, like challenge, that just gets used for its abusive nature, except in the case of Damones and CSM. I dislike Fortifications for the same reason. Plus both rules completely exclude Nids ... are not exactly a strong book in either 5th or 6th.

Nids are going to be savage in this edition, just wait for people to catch on how to make them work.

Reecius wrote:

Phazael wrote:Anyhow, my main hate of allies is that its going to be one of those things, like challenge, that just gets used for its abusive nature, except in the case of Damones and CSM. I dislike Fortifications for the same reason. Plus both rules completely exclude Nids ... are not exactly a strong book in either 5th or 6th.

Nids are going to be savage in this edition, just wait for people to catch on how to make them work.

Depends on the point level of the game (IMHO). I would be more worried about a Guard or GK henchmen army at 1500 points than Nids at 1500 points. It is all about the new version of the game mechanics and how much you can abuse it because of the lack of clarity of the rule set.

The only tangible benefits Nids gained were:
1) MCs are now better than vehicles again. Somewhat irrelavent, because the new grenade rules let any MEQ troop choice take on most MCs one on one and prevail. Ultimately, the Tervigon and Trygons are still the best ones to take.

2) No Retreat Gone- This one is pretty massive, if you are into spamming guants. Even if you are not, at least the big guys now have to be physically killed off.

In contrast, nids have no allies, no ability to man fortifications, their flying MCs get dropped by shots that don't even wound them, no assault from outflank (and likely none from Ymgarls, either), no credible anti-air (apart from a 200+ point Tyrant that can be sent crashing to the ground by bolters that merely hit it), reduced cover, reduced effectiveness from fleet, and extremely limited play in the challenge mechanic. Also, one Rune Priest with the stick of No on a 4+ rocking Jaws still rapes the entire army, which now every imperial army has strong incentive to bring alone. Finally, with the hull point mechanic and added infantry emphasis, its not like MLs are going to get less popular.

Maybe the Tervigon spam tactic will work better in 6th (far from my favorite way to play them), but I just don't see it shaking out that way. The fact that flyrants can be crashed into the ground for free S9 AP2 hits by merely hitting them with bolters pretty much sinks them for me. In fact, in two games I've seen it played, its pretty much croaked both times early to being lawn darted by bolters then mopped up by Missiles on the same turn. Maybe you are seeing something I am not Reece, but to my eyes Nids take it up the pooper in this edition. Now, Orks on the other hand.....

Reecius wrote:

Phazael wrote:Anyhow, my main hate of allies is that its going to be one of those things, like challenge, that just gets used for its abusive nature, except in the case of Damones and CSM. I dislike Fortifications for the same reason. Plus both rules completely exclude Nids ... are not exactly a strong book in either 5th or 6th.

Nids are going to be savage in this edition, just wait for people to catch on how to make them work.

Why would you say this? Makes you come off as pretty know-it-all, not in a good way.

Nids ability to spam FNP and It Will Not Die along with a host of other biomancy powers as well as their easy access to flying monstrous creatures makes them a force to be reckoned with.

Phazael wrote:The only tangible benefits Nids gained were:
1) MCs are now better than vehicles again. Somewhat irrelavent, because the new grenade rules let any MEQ troop choice take on most MCs one on one and prevail. Ultimately, the Tervigon and Trygons are still the best ones to take.

You're overestimating the value of krak grenades somewhat. Sure they're more likely to wound, but you still only get 1 attack each with them and they're only AP4, which most MC's will shrug off.

Phazael wrote:no assault from outflank (and likely none from Ymgarls, either)

Ymgarls can most definitely assault from reserve. Their rules explicitly state this, no FAQ is needed.

Phazael wrote:extremely limited play in the challenge mechanic.

I now actually think you're high. A Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord can do absolutely insane things in challenges with various combinations of the following: Preferred Enemy, Lash Whip, Iron Arm, Endurance and Warp Speed. In my last game mine killed Fuegan before he could strike back thanks to a good Warp Speed roll.
Also remember that Tervigons/Hive Tyrants can not only challenge, they can Smash too. Why is this good? Because you can now hit enemy characters with S10 AP2 attacks, which will ID many of them in one blow.

Phazael wrote:The fact that flyrants can be crashed into the ground for free S9 AP2 hits by merely hitting them with bolters pretty much sinks them for me

Sure that can happen. Land Raiders can also be taken out from the other side of the board with a single lascannon or dark lance shot. Things like this all come down to the luck of the dice more than anything else. There's risk to anything, good players will learn where to send their flyers to reduce that risk and have the best effect. It's just as likely that the enemy could unload everything they have into a Flyrant in an attempt to ground it, giving the rest of the nid army a free turn to advance unscatched.

xttz wrote:

Phazael wrote:The only tangible benefits Nids gained were:
1) MCs are now better than vehicles again. Somewhat irrelavent, because the new grenade rules let any MEQ troop choice take on most MCs one on one and prevail. Ultimately, the Tervigon and Trygons are still the best ones to take.

You're overestimating the value of krak grenades somewhat. Sure they're more likely to wound, but you still only get 1 attack each with them and they're only AP4, which most MC's will shrug off.

Phazael wrote:no assault from outflank (and likely none from Ymgarls, either)

Ymgarls can most definitely assault from reserve. Their rules explicitly state this, no FAQ is needed.

Phazael wrote:extremely limited play in the challenge mechanic.

I now actually think you're high. A Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord can do absolutely insane things in challenges with various combinations of the following: Preferred Enemy, Lash Whip, Iron Arm, Endurance and Warp Speed. In my last game mine killed Fuegan before he could strike back thanks to a good Warp Speed roll.
Also remember that Tervigons/Hive Tyrants can not only challenge, they can Smash too. Why is this good? Because you can now hit enemy characters with S10 AP2 attacks, which will ID many of them in one blow.

Phazael wrote:The fact that flyrants can be crashed into the ground for free S9 AP2 hits by merely hitting them with bolters pretty much sinks them for me

Sure that can happen. Land Raiders can also be taken out from the other side of the board with a single lascannon or dark lance shot. Things like this all come down to the luck of the dice more than anything else. There's risk to anything, good players will learn where to send their flyers to reduce that risk and have the best effect. It's just as likely that the enemy could unload everything they have into a Flyrant in an attempt to ground it, giving the rest of the nid army a free turn to advance unscatched.

First of all. Grenades, even with one attack each = more wounds on your MC. How is this in question. Even if you "shrug it off" you are taking more wounds each round on average. Which would mean you die faster.


Secondly, shots HITTING the flying MC can ground them. This is not comparable to a single dark lance wrecking a Land Raider.


I am not saying Tyranids are bad, but come on. Be honest with yourself, then us.

keithb wrote:First of all. Grenades, even with one attack each = more wounds on your MC. How is this in question. Even if you "shrug it off" you are taking more wounds each round on average. Which would mean you die faster.

I never said they would take less wounds, I'm contesting the claim that MEQs can now 'take on most MCs one on one and prevail'. On average they're likely to get 1 more wound than without krak grenades, during which a chunk of the squad will likely die. That's hardly 'prevailing'.
Sure you can bring Melta bombs, but odds are the MC is getting the attacks in first.

keithb wrote:Secondly, shots HITTING the flying MC can ground them. This is not comparable to a single dark lance wrecking a Land Raider.

Of course it is. In both cases you're hoping for the lucky combination of dice rolls to shorten the job.

For example, a Void Lance lance vs a Land Raider is:
To hit (3+) = 66%
To penetrate (4+) = 50%
To explode (5+) = 33%
= ~11% chance of succeeding per shot. A Void Raven even gets two of these chances per turn.
Or if you prefer, a Ravager with 3 Dark lances at 7-8% per shot.

Grounding an MC is a single roll at 33% odds, in addition to calculating any hits (the odds of which can vary tremendously). Depending on what's shooting the odds of grounding that MC could be anywhere from 5% to 25%, and even that won't kill it outright. Unlike the land raider you'll likely still need to follow it up with more firepower, which again has it's own odds of hitting/wounding/etc. And that's assuming the MC wasn't carefully positioned to limit what would be able to hit it that turn should the worst happen.

Discounting a Flyrant because it could be grounded and killed in 1 turn is no different from not taking a Land Raider because it could be blown up in one turn. The odds of either happening aren't that far apart.

And remember that "grounding" a flying MC doesn't currently remove their flying status so it's still a 6 to hit them from shooting with following shots. Though you can assault if it falls and this does allow it to be "grounded" multiple times.

Actually, it is not all that hard to ground an MC, and Flyrants don't have invuls to protect them thereafter (as Daemons do), so their questionable durability is indeed questionable.

That said, Nids ARE quite strong in the new edition, starting with Psychoir lists and their durability / flexibility.

Psychic Defense lists, naturally, are going to always be a slugfest where you're playing the mission more than "kill kill kill." You'll need things like Parasite and 30-60 gargs (even if cheaped out) to barrel down on things like Rune Priests and the like, so that your army doesn't get nerfed early by the hard counters that multi-wound and psychic-intensive Tyranids are faced with.

Bit of a discussion for another thread ...


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Hulksmash wrote:And remember that "grounding" a flying MC doesn't currently remove their flying status so it's still a 6 to hit them from shooting with following shots. Though you can assault if it falls and this does allow it to be "grounded" multiple times.

Hulk, you know both GW FAQ and INAT and NOVA, etc., aren't going to stick with that component.

xttz wrote:

Phazael wrote:The only tangible benefits Nids gained were:
1) MCs are now better than vehicles again. Somewhat irrelavent, because the new grenade rules let any MEQ troop choice take on most MCs one on one and prevail. Ultimately, the Tervigon and Trygons are still the best ones to take.

You're overestimating the value of krak grenades somewhat. Sure they're more likely to wound, but you still only get 1 attack each with them and they're only AP4, which most MC's will shrug off.

No, I am not. Even a vanilla MEQ Tax unit will knock a wound or two off on the way in (more if plasma or melta is involved) between long range shots and snap fire. Ten derps sticking grenades to a big bug pushes one wound on average, letting the 7-8 survivors to finish the job next round. A flyrant can challange, but that really does little for him. (see below).

xttz wrote:

Phazael wrote:no assault from outflank (and likely none from Ymgarls, either)

Ymgarls can most definitely assault from reserve. Their rules explicitly state this, no FAQ is needed.

Anything can happen in the Nid FAQ, especially if MEQ players decide to bitch about it. See the inability of Primes to ride in pods and the early Shadows in the Warp rulings. I for one am not just assuming Ymgarls will retain that ability.

xttz wrote:

Phazael wrote:extremely limited play in the challenge mechanic.

I now actually think you're high. A Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord can do absolutely insane things in challenges with various combinations of the following: Preferred Enemy, Lash Whip, Iron Arm, Endurance and Warp Speed. In my last game mine killed Fuegan before he could strike back thanks to a good Warp Speed roll.
Also remember that Tervigons/Hive Tyrants can not only challenge, they can Smash too. Why is this good? Because you can now hit enemy characters with S10 AP2 attacks, which will ID many of them in one blow.

So what you are saying is your nearly 500 point HQ hit a shooting unit with an overpriced combat character and killed him. Thats cool, but you can basically expect every encounter to play out like this, once people catch on: Round one: Sgt Derp gets tossed under the bus to the Swarm Lord, while the marines trade wounds with the TG. Then, one of two things happen. Either the marines hold/get caught, which means in round two the SW is stuck there again and spends two more round cleaning the rest of the marines out, leaving your 500ish HQ somewhat beat up and spending half the game killing one tactical squad. Or, the SMs run and escape, rallying instantly allowing them and anything else in the neighborhood to mow you down in the next shooting phase, so you kill precisely zip and your 500 point megahq is beat up, but at least you did not spend the entire game on it. What that player should have done was toss the Excharch under the bus and let Fuegan facerape the tyrant guard, which is something everyone will start doing once they get as familiar with the challenge nuances as most fantasy players are. Of course, since the Fire Dragons have Meltabombs, he could just let you retire Fuegan and kill four guys and then proceed to meltabomb you out of existance.

Also remember in a challenge you are only in base to base with each other, so no lash whips and Mind Shackle Scarabs (and things like them) are going to wreck your 500 point killing machine. A lack of any characters as unit upgrades mean that people will essentially reduce your uber killy guy to punking one meaningless character model while his ICs wreck the support units. The only place where this works in our favor is the vastly overpriced Carnifex unit with Prime Pals, but that dies horribly to Jaws of the Everyone is going to take it Wolf, among other things. The rerolls for outnumbering thing is just going to be complete shutdown against a solo Flyrant, too, when an IC with a Coward Shield is in the unit.

xttz wrote:

Phazael wrote:The fact that flyrants can be crashed into the ground for free S9 AP2 hits by merely hitting them with bolters pretty much sinks them for me

Sure that can happen. Land Raiders can also be taken out from the other side of the board with a single lascannon or dark lance shot. Things like this all come down to the luck of the dice more than anything else. There's risk to anything, good players will learn where to send their flyers to reduce that risk and have the best effect. It's just as likely that the enemy could unload everything they have into a Flyrant in an attempt to ground it, giving the rest of the nid army a free turn to advance unscatched.

To one shot a LR, you need to get a meltagun up close and pass a series of rolls and the LR needs to fail any cover from smoke, ect. To lawn dart a flyrant, you need to roll one six with quite literally any gun in the game that has the range and then roll 1-2. Then, depending on how it is faqed, you are either grounded and down a wound (probably outside cover) and easily smoked by AP3 guns that can zero in on you -OR- you remain in the air where any gun in the game can again have a solid chance of lawn darting you again in the same turn. Neither situation is especially good for the flyrant, but the first is especially disasterous if it puts him in easy assault range of something. Our FLGS has been assuming the grounding to be the correct end result and neither flyrant lived past turn two, despite swooping on the turns they were dropped. One tac squad is basically assured of lawn darting any flying MC if it gets into double tap range. Agan, the GK Dreadnight gets the best of both worlds, as it has a 2+ save and can do a big jump without bothering with the swooping mechanics. The Quad gun emplacement gets to sink you in your own movement phase, practically guarunteed, especially if manned by a BS5 character, of which every other army aside from Nids and Tau have access to.

And seriously, if you are taking a Flyrant for AA, don't. Even the ork flyer will send you into the dirt every time before you can get a credible shot off, never mind the Necron or IG ones. You are much better off spamming Hive Guard and it costs less. Its harder for them to retiate and they cannot jink against it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hulksmash wrote:And remember that "grounding" a flying MC doesn't currently remove their flying status so it's still a 6 to hit them from shooting with following shots. Though you can assault if it falls and this does allow it to be "grounded" multiple times.

And this is the issue, as if that is the case, then every gun from Grot Shotguns to Autocannons get turned into Las Cannons against a swooping MC. Honestly, its better if your grounded immediately, especially against massed firepower that is likely to become the norm in 6th.

@MVB

Why would I know that man. No one has told me it won't.

Why wouldn't any of them adhere to it? I'm genuinely curious. I take it that the model is shot out of the sky and lands to be assaulted. But it makes sense to me that swooping should stay active as he falls out of the sky and is on the ground for the assault phase. It seems the rules are regarding the next phase, not the current shooting phase. And I think multiple hits is fine. Think of getting smacked around so much by flak that you land even worse than normal. Hurting yourself more. Makes perfect sense instead of bolters forcing him to the ground so missiles can hit him. Seems counter intuitive.

I'd shelve the two new models I built and converted in a second for competitive play if you make it they count as grounded from the when the fail the save in the shooting phase. Just wouldn't be worth it in the slightest at the point cost flying MC's usually come in at. Not histrionics, just how i see it after playing several games with flying MC's.

@Phazael

No, it isn't better to be grounded right away. You know I love you man but you do have a tendency to dive into the negative. Yes, every light gun could be a "lascannon" at that point. But to be relatively save from actual lascannons and missile launchers matters a hell of a lot more. And to try it you would need to focus your entire army (i.e. 12 units firing 6+ shots) to accomplish it on average. Which is a lot more than 3 units and one heavy weapon unit (i.e. plasma, missile launchers, or lascannons). See the difference? I certaily do.

And one Tac Squad should not be enough on average to "lawn-dart" a tyrant. Remember, it's one roll per unit. Not per hit.

It appears Phazael knows all about the 'what if' game and plays it well. His units have everything they need to get the job done and the bugs do not.

500 point unit huh? The Swarmlord and two guard are 400 so I guess to get to 500 the bug player needs another 100pts. WHAT IF that 100pts is a Prime? Uh oh! All those fancy challenge avoidance tricks don't work and your unit is dead. Yeah the whole army shoots the Swarmlords unit on the next turn. WHAT IF the Swarlord has Endurance? Uh oh! Your shooting amounts to nothing and you've wasted another turn of the game.

@Darth-
Having a sargent, bolters, and crack grenades is hardly a stretch, since basically every MEQ unit comes with exactly that. I guess the ten man marine squad with a sarge is a rare site in your area or something? Relying on psychic powers is also more or less a crapshoot, at least with allies in the game, since nearly every army can have either a Runepriest, Eldrad, or both. You have just outlined a very good reason why they will, too. Not every nid army will have primes in their lists, in fact, I doubt most will. The Swarmlord with two pals sporting lash whips is indeed under 500 points, but I seriously doubt anyone will take just two guard with the reduced cover saves. In fact, its probably more likely to see him played solo since people will either have allied psy defense (eg your boned anyhow) or no defense, in which case screeners are enough to give initial cover as you cross the table. None of this changes the fact that every enemy unit in the game has access to a chump to toss under the bus, while nids have to either take Broodlords or dig into their HQ slots for challenge bait.

@Hulk-
I am negative when evaluating a new ruleset or codex, mostly because years of cynical preperation for "how are the guys going to break this" mindset I have to be in for the first few events I am involved in. If it is one test per unit, then that is indeed better (and they were playing it wrong where I was at), but that leaves you in the boat of either holding the flyrant back, in which case you may as well have taken one on foot anyhow, or sending him in solo, in which case the MEQ camping in the woods have nothing better to do than play the Bolter Lottery anyhow. I know if my choices are between taking a shot at a Flyrant or shooting at some FNP Guants, I am playing Bolter Lotto every time.

In any case, I think that a harpy is a better choice for a Nid FMC, since it can't be challenged out and gets to swing before nearly anything it would fight. Its also somewhat cheap for what it does and comes from the otherwise useless Nid FA slot.

How all this Nid whining relates to the topic is, I think when you look at Nids facing the field without Allies or Fortifications, they might do alright, at least against armies other than Eldar, Necrons, and Space Wolves. With everyone having allies and fortifications, especially given the likely common choices in these catagories, I feel they are worse off than they were in 5th. So, the basic argument I am making here is Allies and Fortifications are unfair to at least one of the armies in the game (if not more), above and beyond their logistical issues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: Another thing I just realized is my crummy all bonesword warrior army is going to take forever to play against Blood Angels/Plague Marines/anyone with lots of FnP because every wound in CC is going to have to go through this process:

1) Randomly determine model wounded
2) Roll to wound
3) Roll Invul saves and/or Lookout Sir if relavent.
4) Roll Leadership roll to see if it causes ID
5) If LD test is passed, roll FNP
6) Roll Lookout Sir if relavent and you have not already.
7) Remove relavent model and return to step one.

Holy crap is that going to be time consuming against even a moderately complex unit (like most BA and Draigowing units tend to be).

keithb wrote:

Reecius wrote:

Phazael wrote:Anyhow, my main hate of allies is that its going to be one of those things, like challenge, that just gets used for its abusive nature, except in the case of Damones and CSM. I dislike Fortifications for the same reason. Plus both rules completely exclude Nids ... are not exactly a strong book in either 5th or 6th.

Nids are going to be savage in this edition, just wait for people to catch on how to make them work.

Why would you say this? Makes you come off as pretty know-it-all, not in a good way.

I didn't know there was a good way to come across as a know-it-all!

I didn't mean to sound like that, though. My point being that Nids are very good this edition, and with all of the changes to the game, and the access they have to INSANE psyker combos, the shift the game will make towards more infantry based armies, fearless going away, etc. they will show their colors.

I am having a lot of fun playing mine, again. And so far, have only had trouble with Venom Spam DE, but ANY non-mechanized army will.

Hulksmash wrote:And remember that "grounding" a flying MC doesn't currently remove their flying status so it's still a 6 to hit them from shooting with following shots. Though you can assault if it falls and this does allow it to be "grounded" multiple times.

Are you sure about this? A FMC is 6 to hit if it's "Swooping". It may not be specifically noted in the rules, but being Grounded seems like that would put an end to any Swooping. I'd say that this is further evidenced by the "cannot assault or be assaulted" restriction while Swooping. Grounding a FMC allows you to assault it, so Grounding ends Swooping.

(I hope I never use the word "Swooping" that many times ever again. WTF were they thinking when they named that rule? )

Yeah, I'm not so sure about the grounding issue.

It would have been so, so easy for them to say that a grounded FMC simply reverts immediately to 'gliding' and loses all benefits it had from swooping.

But they didn't do that and spelled out very specifically which abilities were lost so I personally have no idea whehter it was intentional or not.

However, another rule that technically 'sticks' even when the FMC gets grounded is the rule about firing snap shots when it dives...or in other words, if a FMC 'dives' to get the jink save but then is later grounded, on his next turn by the RAW he would still only be allowed to fire snap shots.

Personally, I think even though it isn't really sensical at times, you have to go with just what they wrote: A grounded FMC can be assaulted and loses the jink special rule and that's it. All other rules involving swooping are still in effect.

I run small local events not GTs but I'm going to run them right out of the book to start with. If after I have a few under my belt I'll re-evaluate the situation. I know that running tournaments is a lot of work and there is no point adding to it by re writing the rule system especially since no one has played it enough to know how it will pan out in tournament play.

yakface wrote:
Personally, I think even though it isn't really sensical at times, you have to go with just what they wrote: A grounded FMC can be assaulted and loses the jink special rule and that's it. All other rules involving swooping are still in effect.

I have visions of an MC bouncing multiple times like one of those rubber balls you used to get out of a gumball machine....

This is one of those things that I expect to get FAQed, like Deep Striking flyers that lack hover mode.

CT GAMER wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

6th edition is a set of rules to play with toy soldiers, but really not a set of rules to create a balanced tactical environment to test the command ability of players against each other.

I'm not sure it has ever been what you describe.

But that hasnt stopped people from pretending othewise...

At least with 5th it seemed to take the right direction (towards "set of rules to create a balanced tactical environment to test the command ability of players against each other"). 6th seems to go 6+ years old approved "who throws better" boardgame route and how convenient for GW btw, they can slip by with everything in codieces now because it's all "for fun".

I can take everything (allies, fortifications, mysterious terrain and objectives, even random warlord traits) bar 2d6 charge. It's the spit in the face of tactical gameplay, imo.

so are tourneys going to allow non-super heavy forgeworld units like contemptors or ork mega dreds or blood slaughters?

Probably, but not right away, give it a few months.

The main thing I see about allowing FW armies is then it gives a lot of armies the ability to ALLY with basically themselves. Since Marines already have this option due to there being tons of MEQ armies I think this is the 'fairness' aspect.

Orks being able to ally with Dredbash for a true battle brother ally opens up a lot of options to orks... Considering every ork player basically needs a KFF, we can now take a KFF and spanna boyz as an ally detachment and have dual warbosses or stuff like that.

And who doesn't love 5 SAG meks in a 2000 point army?

nkelsch wrote:The main thing I see about allowing FW armies is then it gives a lot of armies the ability to ALLY with basically themselves. Since Marines already have this option due to there being tons of MEQ armies I think this is the 'fairness' aspect.

If Tyranids could ally with themselves, it'd help out a bit; that extra Elites slot would be really nice.

Janthkin wrote:

nkelsch wrote:The main thing I see about allowing FW armies is then it gives a lot of armies the ability to ALLY with basically themselves. Since Marines already have this option due to there being tons of MEQ armies I think this is the 'fairness' aspect.

If Tyranids could ally with themselves, it'd help out a bit; that extra Elites slot would be really nice.

I don't think Nids have a forgeworld codex :(

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/allies.pdf

But almost everyone else got a battle brother in some form from a codex which is super similar to the core codex and shares units. There are loads of chaos, imperial guard, space marine, and an eldar and ork codex.

Giving Nids a forgeworld codex would solve the issue... Like a genestealer cult or some sort of themed Nid FW codex.