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osirisx69 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:
Is there a tau in the unit? is the tau the closest model? If yes and yes then yes if not then no.

Why does it matter if he's the closest? Are you attacking the Tau?

I edited my post and I was not fast enough before you posted a response.

Fair enough - but why does it matter if he's taking the wound?
Did you attack him? Or did you attack the Eldar unit?
edit: This is why the definition of "attack" matters.
In 40k, you're attacking what you target. You didn't target the individual model.

rigeld2 wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:
Is there a tau in the unit? is the tau the closest model? If yes and yes then yes if not then no.

Why does it matter if he's the closest? Are you attacking the Tau?

I edited my post and I was not fast enough before you posted a response.

Fair enough - but why does it matter if he's taking the wound?
Did you attack him? Or did you attack the Eldar unit?
edit: This is why the definition of "attack" matters.
In 40k, you're attacking what you target. You didn't target the individual model.

Your targeting the unit. The unit has a PE in it. So use the PE rules. If a unit of 1 wolf guard and 7 grey hunters are shot at by an enemy that has PE "wolf guard" then you would use PE. Since PE does not state the "entire unit must be filled with preferred enemies" then you can only go by exactly what it says. Are you shooting at your preferred enemy? If yes use these rules. is there a preferred enemy in the unit ? yes then use these rules. I am not saying individual models. heck there could be 3 or 5 of your preferred enemy in the target unit and you get PE. Since PE does not clarify and it is an overriding rule and this is a permissive game then it has to overwrite the previous rules for targeting per this post off of dakka.

"Forgetting That the Specific Overrules the General"

The general rule is you target units. The overriding rule is, your target units, but then you check to see if they have any preferred enemy in it.

osirisx69 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:
Is there a tau in the unit? is the tau the closest model? If yes and yes then yes if not then no.

Why does it matter if he's the closest? Are you attacking the Tau?

I edited my post and I was not fast enough before you posted a response.

Fair enough - but why does it matter if he's taking the wound?
Did you attack him? Or did you attack the Eldar unit?
edit: This is why the definition of "attack" matters.
In 40k, you're attacking what you target. You didn't target the individual model.

Your targeting the unit. The unit has a PE in it. So use the PE rules. If a unit of 1 wolf guard and 7 grey hunters are shot at by an enemy that has PE "wolf guard" then you would use PE. Since PE does not state the "entire unit must be filled with preferred enemies" then you can only go by exactly what it says. Are you shooting at your preferred enemy? If yes use these rules. is there a preferred enemy in the unit ? yes then use these rules. I am not saying individual models. heck there could be 3 or 5 of your preferred enemy in the target unit and you get PE. Since PE does not clarify and it is an overriding rule and this is a permissive game then it has to overwrite the previous rules for targeting per this post off of dakka.

The bolded does not exist in the rules anywhere.

It says if you're attacking your PE. Not if the unit you're attacking contains your PE.

"Forgetting That the Specific Overrules the General"

The general rule is you target units. The overriding rule is, your target units, but then you check to see if they have any preferred enemy in it.

You keep asserting the bold, but I've never seen you back it up with an actual rule. PE doesn't say if there's a PE in the unit you're attacking - it says if you're attacking.

rigeld2 wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

osirisx69 wrote:
Is there a tau in the unit? is the tau the closest model? If yes and yes then yes if not then no.

Why does it matter if he's the closest? Are you attacking the Tau?

I edited my post and I was not fast enough before you posted a response.

Fair enough - but why does it matter if he's taking the wound?
Did you attack him? Or did you attack the Eldar unit?
edit: This is why the definition of "attack" matters.
In 40k, you're attacking what you target. You didn't target the individual model.

Your targeting the unit. The unit has a PE in it. So use the PE rules. If a unit of 1 wolf guard and 7 grey hunters are shot at by an enemy that has PE "wolf guard" then you would use PE. Since PE does not state the "entire unit must be filled with preferred enemies" then you can only go by exactly what it says. Are you shooting at your preferred enemy? If yes use these rules. is there a preferred enemy in the unit ? yes then use these rules. I am not saying individual models. heck there could be 3 or 5 of your preferred enemy in the target unit and you get PE. Since PE does not clarify and it is an overriding rule and this is a permissive game then it has to overwrite the previous rules for targeting per this post off of dakka.

The bolded does not exist in the rules anywhere.

It says if you're attacking your PE. Not if the unit you're attacking contains your PE.

"Forgetting That the Specific Overrules the General"

The general rule is you target units. The overriding rule is, your target units, but then you check to see if they have any preferred enemy in it.

You keep asserting the bold, but I've never seen you back it up with an actual rule. PE doesn't say if there's a PE in the unit you're attacking - it says if you're attacking.

I have stated the rule. Page 40 paragraph 5 second to last sentence. The above example show that yes the unit has my preferred enemy in it. How else could I use this rule then? PE has given me permission to use a special rule against my PE. Does the unit contain my PE if yes then I use the special rule if not then no.

osirisx69 wrote:
I have stated the rule. Page 40 paragraph 5 second to last sentence. The above example show that yes the unit has my preferred enemy in it. How else could I use this rule then? PE has given me permission to use a special rule against my PE. Does the unit contain my PE if yes then I use the special rule if not then no.

There isn't a single word on page 40 paragraph 5 second to last sentence that implies the unit simply has to "contain" your PE. edit: this is the part that you've failed to back up with actual rules.
In fact, it states that you must attack your PE. Not a unit that the PE is part of - but your PE.
If you had PE: Tau and shot a Tau unit, it would kick it.

You have also failed to prove that you do in fact attack units as a whole and not as a collection of models, you have simply implied the rules via logical steps.

I've asked repeatedly how hatred is suppose to work if that was true ( it doesn't say if the unit contains any hated model it says any model from that codex) how do you attack a model under your definition?

How do you deal with Preferred Enemy T5 on a unit such as DE beastmasters? Where some of the unit models can have T5 and some don't (without even adding an IC). or Saga of the beastslayer on that same unit.

Sorry but your definition just doesn't work, as the definition of unit is just a group of models and that's it. An IC being a member of that group for all rules purposes means they are a member for all rules purposes.

And back to what was said earlier about ICs joining together by keeping track of who joined who, the rules actually say a new Multi-Character unit is formed so a libby joining a captian does not make a captian unit it makes a libby and captian unit.
So now how does preferred enemy work on that unit?

It really needs to be "at least one model", "all models" or "majority of models"

Kisada II wrote:
You have also failed to prove that you do in fact attack units as a whole and not as a collection of models, you have simply implied the rules via logical steps.

No, I've walked through the rules as they exist.

I've asked repeatedly how hatred is suppose to work if that was true ( it doesn't say if the unit contains any hated model it says any model from that codex) how do you attack a model under your definition?

That's not completely correct.
It is worded very similarly to PE actually.
And the requirement is to strike a hated foe.
Strike is synonymous with attack in the rules, so it works precisely like PE does.

How do you deal with Preferred Enemy T5 on a unit such as DE beastmasters? Where some of the unit models can have T5 and some don't (without even adding an IC). or Saga of the beastslayer on that same unit.

Is it a T5 unit? Is it a unit of beasts?

Sorry but your definition just doesn't work, as the definition of unit is just a group of models and that's it. An IC being a member of that group for all rules purposes means they are a member for all rules purposes.

Yes - which means that if the Tau IC joins an Eldar unit, the Tau unit ceases to exist.
I fail to see how my definition doesn't work - at least mine doesn't add words to make things work in a way that "sounds right".

And back to what was said earlier about ICs joining together by keeping track of who joined who, the rules actually say a new Multi-Character unit is formed so a libby joining a captian does not make a captian unit it makes a libby and captian unit.
So now how does preferred enemy work on that unit?

It does not make a Libby and captain unit. You do have to keep track of who joins who.

It really needs to be "at least one model", "all models" or "majority of models"

Sure - it needs an FAQ or different wording.

To osirisx69 and Kisada II:

Units from Codex: Tau Empire can expend Markerlights to gain various abilities before shooting.

If an Autarch is attached to a unit of Fire Warriors, can they use Markerlights and will the Autarch benefit? Why or why not?

If a Tau Commander is attached to a unit of Guardian Defenders, can they use Markerlights and will the Guardian Defenders benefit? Why or why not?

Please use actual rules to support your answers.

rigeld2 wrote:
To your last question - until the end of the phase, yes it's a unit of Fire Warriors.

And adding a Tau IC to an Eldar unit does not make it a Eldar + Tau unit. The Tau unit ceases to exist so the only unit left is Eldar.

So you believe a unit with no Fire Warriors in it can be a unit of Fire Warriors. How does that work since only models can be Fire Warriors? You've yet to show a unit has a type, Title(Fire Warrior) or codex affiliation so I maintain only models have those things.

The Tau unit ceases to exist? That is not stated. VPs are still awarded for it so obviously it can be destroyed. Seems to still exist to me and instead of disappearing is actually added to the unit the IC joins which is why that unit becomes worth 2 VPs.

Abandon, since osirisx and Kisada refuse (or are unable) to answer my question in the post immediately proceeding yours, perhaps you can?

Oh, and since you keep pointing out that you can only attack a unit then by your stance only PE(unit) would be usable. What exactly do you think a unit is?

 Abandon wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
To your last question - until the end of the phase, yes it's a unit of Fire Warriors.

And adding a Tau IC to an Eldar unit does not make it a Eldar + Tau unit. The Tau unit ceases to exist so the only unit left is Eldar.

So you believe a unit with no Fire Warriors in it can be a unit of Fire Warriors. How does that work since only models can be Fire Warriors? You've yet to show a unit has a type, Title(Fire Warrior) or codex affiliation so I maintain only models have those things.

If a unit is made up of Fire Warriors it is a Fire Warrior unit.
Since the ICs cannot leave that unit until the end of the phase, the FW unit still exists until then.

The Tau unit ceases to exist? That is not stated. VPs are still awarded for it so obviously it can be destroyed. Seems to still exist to me and instead of disappearing is actually added to the unit the IC joins which is why that unit becomes worth 2 VPs.

When do you count VP? When the unit dies or at the end of the game?
Perhaps if you applied the rules correctly you wouldn't have this misconception.
Also - if the unit continues to exist, that means the IC is targetable individually - it's still a unit after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Abandon wrote:
Oh, and since you keep pointing out that you can only attack a unit then by your stance only PE(unit) would be usable. What exactly do you think a unit is?

PE (race) is as well.
As is any PE if the target unit is homogeneous.

The Tau commander is purchased as a unit in the Tau codex as are the Fire Warriors. The rule permits them to use marker lights. None of the others qualify.

So the others aren't treated as members of the Tau unit for all rules purposes?
Edit: others meaning Autarch + Fire Warriors

 Abandon wrote:
The Tau commander is purchased as a unit in the Tau codex as are the Fire Warriors. The rule permits them to use marker lights. None of the others qualify.

So the Autarch (who counts as a normal member for all rules purposes) does not count as a normal member for all rules purposes? As far as I know there are only a couple times where an IC counts as a separate unit while attached to a unit, and those specifically say so.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
To your last question - until the end of the phase, yes it's a unit of Fire Warriors.

And adding a Tau IC to an Eldar unit does not make it a Eldar + Tau unit. The Tau unit ceases to exist so the only unit left is Eldar.

So you believe a unit with no Fire Warriors in it can be a unit of Fire Warriors. How does that work since only models can be Fire Warriors? You've yet to show a unit has a type, Title(Fire Warrior) or codex affiliation so I maintain only models have those things.

If a unit is made up of Fire Warriors it is a Fire Warrior unit.
Since the ICs cannot leave that unit until the end of the phase, the FW unit still exists until then.

The first line contradicts the second there. The ICs cannot, by themselves, compose a Fire Warrior Unit according to that statement.

Since a unit composed of Fire Warrior models is what constitutes a unit of fire Warriors what would you call a unit composed of more than just Fire Warriros?

rigeld2 wrote:

The Tau unit ceases to exist? That is not stated. VPs are still awarded for it so obviously it can be destroyed. Seems to still exist to me and instead of disappearing is actually added to the unit the IC joins which is why that unit becomes worth 2 VPs.

When do you count VP? When the unit dies or at the end of the game?
Perhaps if you applied the rules correctly you wouldn't have this misconception.
Also - if the unit continues to exist, that means the IC is targetable individually - it's still a unit after all.

Why does that matter?
What misconception?
Yes, and...?

rigeld2 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Abandon wrote:
Oh, and since you keep pointing out that you can only attack a unit then by your stance only PE(unit) would be usable. What exactly do you think a unit is?

PE (race) is as well.
As is any PE if the target unit is homogeneous.

You can't target a race.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
The Tau commander is purchased as a unit in the Tau codex as are the Fire Warriors. The rule permits them to use marker lights. None of the others qualify.

So the Autarch (who counts as a normal member for all rules purposes) does not count as a normal member for all rules purposes? As far as I know there are only a couple times where an IC counts as a separate unit while attached to a unit, and those specifically say so.

First, a slight correction. It's not a 'normal member' this edition.

The rule does not care about what units who joins when etc. The rule only cares if they(the model(s)) were purchased as a unit form the Tau Codex. If they are not, then they are not permitted to use marker lights.

Re-read the IC section, it says that ICs can join together to form a Multi-character unit not one joining the other.
So if a Tau IC joins with an Eldar IC they make a new unit. Now how preferred enemy work on them?
I can't answer your question on marker lights, different tournaments here play it one of two ways and they both make sense, but maker lights say units and preferred enemy does not necessary have anything to do with units (my point this entire thread) units have been added in as a logical leap and although it makes sense it has problems and that isn't what is in the rule book

If Multiple ICs are joining each other they must do so one at a time. When forming the super unit the first IC that moves joins the IC whose unit will be applied to all other ICs.

You have ICs A, B, C, D, E, F, and G; IC A moves to join IC B, IC A is now a member of B-unit. IC C then has to join B-unit(consisting of IC A and B). All other ICs that move to join the Multi character unit are joining B-Unit.

What the passage you are talking about is, is an allowance for ICs to join other ICs at all; which would not be allowed under the more basic rules that ICs cannot join units that only ever consist of 1 model(like all ICs are).

 Abandon wrote:
The first line contradicts the second there. The ICs cannot, by themselves, compose a Fire Warrior Unit according to that statement.

They are not. They are members of a Fire Warrior unit for all rules purposes until the end of the phase.

Since a unit composed of Fire Warrior models is what constitutes a unit of fire Warriors what would you call a unit composed of more than just Fire Warriros?

It started as a unit of Fire Warriors. The other models joined the unit of Fire Warriors... and they're members of the Fire Warrior unit for all rules purposes.

rigeld2 wrote:

The Tau unit ceases to exist? That is not stated. VPs are still awarded for it so obviously it can be destroyed. Seems to still exist to me and instead of disappearing is actually added to the unit the IC joins which is why that unit becomes worth 2 VPs.

When do you count VP? When the unit dies or at the end of the game?
Perhaps if you applied the rules correctly you wouldn't have this misconception.
Also - if the unit continues to exist, that means the IC is targetable individually - it's still a unit after all.

Why does that matter?
What misconception?
Yes, and...?

Because the VP is counted at the end of the game, not during it. So the unit ceasing to exist causes no issues with counting VP.
The misconception that the IC unit still exists after it joins another unit.
So your arguing that an IC is still targetable by shooting after it joins another unit?

rigeld2 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Abandon wrote:
Oh, and since you keep pointing out that you can only attack a unit then by your stance only PE(unit) would be usable. What exactly do you think a unit is?

PE (race) is as well.
As is any PE if the target unit is homogeneous.

You can't target a race.

I didn't say you could. Perhaps you could actually attempt to understand my argument?

The rule does not care about what units who joins when etc. The rule only cares if they(the model(s)) were purchased as a unit form the Tau Codex. If they are not, then they are not permitted to use marker lights.

Could you quote the rule please? I'm pretty sure it doesn't say that, but you're welcome to prove me wrong.

Semi silly question . If a IC joins a unit , by raw is the IC allowed to use abilities/wargear if the unit he joins does not have access to them ?

Absolutely; the Special rules, Abilities and wargear belong to the model. Just like the Character rule belongs to the unit leader(on most units), and the Special and heavy weapons(Wargear) only belong to certain models within the unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
The first line contradicts the second there. The ICs cannot, by themselves, compose a Fire Warrior Unit according to that statement.

They are not. They are members of a Fire Warrior unit for all rules purposes until the end of the phase.

Since a unit composed of Fire Warrior models is what constitutes a unit of fire Warriors what would you call a unit composed of more than just Fire Warriros?

It started as a unit of Fire Warriors. The other models joined the unit of Fire Warriors... and they're members of the Fire Warrior unit for all rules purposes.

So you need to prove a unit has a type apart from it's models. Otherwise a unit would lose any association with 'Fire Warrior' as soon as all the Fire Warriors are destroyed. As far as I can tell a unit is just a group of models retaining no further type of its own and is associated with specific types only due to the characteristics of the models that compose it.

Also, the 'last man standing' rule found in the IC rules would not apply in the scenario I cited as none of them are the only model left in the unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

The Tau unit ceases to exist? That is not stated. VPs are still awarded for it so obviously it can be destroyed. Seems to still exist to me and instead of disappearing is actually added to the unit the IC joins which is why that unit becomes worth 2 VPs.

When do you count VP? When the unit dies or at the end of the game?
Perhaps if you applied the rules correctly you wouldn't have this misconception.
Also - if the unit continues to exist, that means the IC is targetable individually - it's still a unit after all.

Why does that matter?
What misconception?
Yes, and...?

Because the VP is counted at the end of the game, not during it. So the unit ceasing to exist causes no issues with counting VP.
The misconception that the IC unit still exists after it joins another unit.
So your arguing that an IC is still targetable by shooting after it joins another unit?

Correct.

I never said that.

The IC itself is never targetable, it's always in a unit. By itself it just happens to be the only one so everything hitting it's unit can only wound the IC. Either way you must target the ICs unit in order to 'attack' the IC. You're saying the IC cannot be attacked when it's in a unit?

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Abandon wrote:
Oh, and since you keep pointing out that you can only attack a unit then by your stance only PE(unit) would be usable. What exactly do you think a unit is?

PE (race) is as well.
As is any PE if the target unit is homogeneous.

You can't target a race.

I didn't say you could. Perhaps you could actually attempt to understand my argument?

I do understand. Your stance is that the unit of Fire Warriors is a Fire Warrior Unit and that individual characteristics of its models don't matter in regards to that. My view is that it is just a unit and only its models are Fire Warriors.
You believe attacking a unit is not attacking models. I believe that since a unit is a group of models, attacking the unit is an attack on its models.

rigeld2 wrote:

The rule does not care about what units who joins when etc. The rule only cares if they(the model(s)) were purchased as a unit form the Tau Codex. If they are not, then they are not permitted to use marker lights.

Could you quote the rule please? I'm pretty sure it doesn't say that, but you're welcome to prove me wrong.

Don't have that codex, just basing it off what Happyjew said.

 Abandon wrote:
Either way you must target the ICs unit in order to 'attack' the IC. You're saying the IC cannot be attacked when it's in a unit?

Correct. I've only been saying that for a few pages...

rigeld2 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Either way you must target the ICs unit in order to 'attack' the IC. You're saying the IC cannot be attacked when it's in a unit?

Correct. I've only been saying that for a few pages...

Good, we are at last on the same page

Now I point out that technically the IC is always in a unit and cannot be individually targeted even by himself only his unit can be targeted. Agreed?

Except if you can never target an IC, and only target his "unit" even when he is alone-what happens with Ralai's "PE: IC" then, because by that logic it will never trigger.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Except if you can never target an IC, and only target his "unit" even when he is alone-what happens with Ralai's "PE: IC" then, because by that logic it will never trigger.

As you are only allowed to target units that would be true except that a unit is nothing more than a group of models(one or more). So an attack on the unit is an attack on the group and you would have to find the PE characteristic within the group to benefit from the SR. That is the only way PE can function outside of a challenge as far as I can tell.

 Abandon wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Either way you must target the ICs unit in order to 'attack' the IC. You're saying the IC cannot be attacked when it's in a unit?

Correct. I've only been saying that for a few pages...

Good, we are at last on the same page

Now I point out that technically the IC is always in a unit and cannot be individually targeted even by himself only his unit can be targeted. Agreed?

Sure. Semi-irrelevant, but technically true.

And your assumption is that PE must be able to function outside of a challenge. There's no reason for that assumption.
You'e also incorrect that any one model in a group can trigger PE - demonstrably false actually.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Either way you must target the ICs unit in order to 'attack' the IC. You're saying the IC cannot be attacked when it's in a unit?

Correct. I've only been saying that for a few pages...

Good, we are at last on the same page

Now I point out that technically the IC is always in a unit and cannot be individually targeted even by himself only his unit can be targeted. Agreed?

Sure. Semi-irrelevant, but technically true.

And your assumption is that PE must be able to function outside of a challenge. There's no reason for that assumption.
You'e also incorrect that any one model in a group can trigger PE - demonstrably false actually.

Yes I feel quite comfortable in the assumption that PE is intended to work in more than just challenges. PE on non-characters would otherwise be pointless so it's really just the standard assumption the SR is intended to have an effect for all the models they give it to. We should attempt, where possible, to translate the written text into a working system so when we find areas where things could be taken several ways we should keep such basic assumptions in mind.

With that in mind and exceptions aside it becomes necessary to acknowledged that a unit is not a separate entity from its models. They are one and the same and no distinction can be drawn between the two. Models are what carry the characteristics that most every PE targets so to look at them as separate would cause the SR not to function. Agreed?

Before I address anything I'd like you to unedit that quote and apologize. There was literally no reason for doing so.

rigeld2 wrote:
Before I address anything I'd like you to unedit that quote and apologize. There was literally no reason for doing so.

I did not edit anything.
Edit: Having a second look, it did indeed leave something out. All I did was hit quote though and added my comments so no apology.