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@nomotag: Chun li and the other girl look like they're about to make out and their boobs are pressed hard against each other. They could've backed up like a half of a foot and still had that effect.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
@nomotag: Chun li and nomotag look like they're about to make out and their boobs are pressed hard against each other. They could've backed up like a half of a foot and still had that effect.

Well like I said. Not expert.

nomotog wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Oh noes this woman is showing cleavage!!!! That's so sexist!!!
To give an example I've never understood why people would pick on a character like Mai Shiranui for the wrong reasons. Kunoichi always dressed in revealing attire, and they overpower powerful men by using a weakness women don't have (women have far more control around the opposite sex). Shouldn't that be empowering?
Look at Dragon's Crown. Yes the Amazon spent way too much time on the leg machine, and yes the Sorceress is a GGG cup. But the Amazon has by far the most DPS, and the Sorceress has by far the most versatility. Revealing attire wearing, generally well endowed characters aren't sexist inherently. Characters being dramatically weaker for being female IS sexist.

I am not going to comment on dragon crown's designs because I hate them all. The sorceress, the elf even the dwarf and the warrior. Hate it all. I get the style and what the intent. I just don't like them at all. It's mostly a matter of taste for me.

I'm honestly not the best at explaining why one character is objectified well another might not be. The first thing to understand is that is honestly has little to do with cleavage. A character can be empowered and naked or objectified and fully clothed. One general rule would be to look at a image and ask yourself what they are trying to do, why they are trying to do it and how they are feeling at the time.

I looked at a few pictures of Mai Shiranui some are quite bad, others aren't that bad at all. (A few I couldn't even show on dakka because they are borderline erotica.)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9a/Mai_Shiranui.png
This one was the one used on her Wikipedia page, so I am going to assume that it's a common depiction of her. (There was an animated version on the page too, but I'm already worried this one might be too much.) Lets ask the question, What is she trying to do in this picture? As far as I can guess, she is trying to seduce the viewer. Notice that she is looking towards the viewer well displaying her breasts to the viewer. You said she might use her sexuality as a weapon in battle, but notice that isn't what is happening here. She isn't fighting anyone. This whole image is about her being sexy for the viewer. On the upside at least she is happy about it. She looks like she wants to be sexy. The fact that we can see her expression and see how she feels makes this less objectifying then if they cut out or obscured her face.

http://levelmais.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/wallpaper-7240121.jpg
That one is a wallpaper image so it's rather big, but I wanted to include it because it's not the same as the first image I posted. First of all notice that she is now interacting with chun li. The two are having a staring battle. Trying to psych the other out before a fight I imagine. Her fist is clenched and fer expression is one of steely determination. I this image she is tough and she is about to show it. She looks like a fighter in this image. It's completely different then the image I posed before even though she is still wearing very little clothing.

Take note that I said I'm not an expert at examining images. I'm barely an amateur. Someone better might can likely point out other things I may have missed both positive and negative.

Noticed how I said for "the wrong reasons". She's still become a fanservice character. Which isn't actually sexist. Keep in mind 92% of all the well drawn, anatomically correct images you find will be erotica.
Kunoichi were never physical fighters. I imagine due to training they could still beat the gak out of the average feudal lord though.
People rip into Mai because she dresses in provocative ways, and acts equally provocative. Not because she's doing it for no reason because she's a fistfighter.

flamingkillamajig wrote:@nomotag: Chun li and the other girl look like they're about to make out and their boobs are pressed hard against each other. They could've backed up like a half of a foot and still had that effect.

^ He's got a point there. Note the closeness of their lips - or that the character on the right is shoving her thigh between the legs of the character on the left.

That's called fanservice. The pictured combination power and sex at the same time isn't all that uncommon, come to think of it - but I'm not sure if it makes the characters any less objectified. It probably depends on some sort of hidden ratio between the two factors that may well be different for every individual viewer. In case of the aforementioned wallpaper, however, I'll just say that catfights between two sexy girls are rather popular with the male population, but that doesn't make the "combatants" fighting in the mud pit any more empowered than the winner of a wet t-shirt contest.

As for Dragon's Crown, I've seen enough pictures and videos to know what the makers were gunning for there. I guess it's worked - but really, people should at least own up to their guilty pleasures.

 Lynata wrote:

flamingkillamajig wrote:@nomotag: Chun li and the other girl look like they're about to make out and their boobs are pressed hard against each other. They could've backed up like a half of a foot and still had that effect.

^ He's got a point there. Note the closeness of their lips - or that the character on the right is shoving her thigh between the legs of the character on the left.

That's called fanservice. The pictured combination power and sex at the same time isn't all that uncommon, come to think of it - but I'm not sure if it makes the characters any less objectified. It probably depends on some sort of hidden ratio between the two factors that may well be different for every individual viewer. In case of the aforementioned wallpaper, however, I'll just say that catfights between two sexy girls are rather popular with the male population, but that doesn't make the "combatants" fighting in the mud pit any more empowered than the winner of a wet t-shirt contest.

As for Dragon's Crown, I've seen enough pictures and videos to know what the makers were gunning for there. I guess it's worked - but really, people should at least own up to their guilty pleasures.

Well there you go then. That was the least fan-service picture I found. The only ones left are the ones where she in contorting like a jelly fish, bound and gagged, Or that one that is just her rear in the air.

@Lynata: Yeah I noticed the knee into crotch thing too but that's getting pretty dirty there.

Oh well I'll admit i'm a pervy guy. I like women sexually and seeing them in that way is something I like but here and there you gotta have some decent female characters.

Oddly enough I don't like stupid sex scenes in games. I enjoy it a little but it brings the story to a halt often in some cases. I had trouble playing 'The Witcher' when a previous landlord lent it to me because Geralt was such an unbelievable man-wh*re even when the story seemed to be very in depth about everything. Another problem I had with the story was the lack of options and how extreme each choice was. Do I f*ck over group 1 or group 2 or both groups with no deviations for big extreme actions. Early on to save a witch you burned down an entire village and I didn't want to do that. Because you know the way to quell an angry mob is of course massacring everybody even the civilians (what a total pr*ck).

It's an odd thing about me since i'm very pervy but when i'm not watching well stuff ;P I tend to separate my interests. I'm not playing a game for sexual purposes. P*rn is for that purpose.

--------------

@sebster: As far as '300' being fan service for men (man-service?) there was not that much sexual material. In fact if anything considering the times I feel like they were a bit insulting to the messenger. Basically Spartans felt themselves superior to non-Spartans. Keep in mind that scene where the Leonidas's wife talks out of line for the time she sort of did it not for equality purposes (I think) but more for looking down on non-Spartans.

If '300' appeals to all men then you are suggesting all men want action-p*rns. A lot of guys didn't watch it. Also if we're going by stereotypes there are a lot of movies made supposedly with women in mind like romantic comedies and the super ridiculous movies like 'twilight' or something based around an average girl getting the super good looking guy or girls showing their girl power because well girls. Not all women like those kinds of movies just as not all guys like movies like '300'. In fact even men make fun of the movies that are overly macho at times without any sort of point to them (plenty of Arnold flicks like 'Commando' and you'd think they should title a movie 'The Governator' by now).

@nomotag: I never understand why women seem to like anime so much of all the nerd culture that there is. I never see women more degraded than in anything anime related. I've seen enough boob and panty shots as well as accidents that turn into boobs smacking the dude or something sexual as if some magical pen*s fairy hovers around doing perverted things to girls just being around at the time. I am a perv and I like some of that stuff but judging on anime they paint that sub-culture as bigger closet perverts than I could ever hope to be.

 Lynata wrote:

flamingkillamajig wrote:@nomotag: Chun li and the other girl look like they're about to make out and their boobs are pressed hard against each other. They could've backed up like a half of a foot and still had that effect.

^ He's got a point there. Note the closeness of their lips - or that the character on the right is shoving her thigh between the legs of the character on the left.

That's called fanservice. The pictured combination power and sex at the same time isn't all that uncommon, come to think of it - but I'm not sure if it makes the characters any less objectified. It probably depends on some sort of hidden ratio between the two factors that may well be different for every individual viewer. In case of the aforementioned wallpaper, however, I'll just say that catfights between two sexy girls are rather popular with the male population, but that doesn't make the "combatants" fighting in the mud pit any more empowered than the winner of a wet t-shirt contest.

As for Dragon's Crown, I've seen enough pictures and videos to know what the makers were gunning for there. I guess it's worked - but really, people should at least own up to their guilty pleasures.

Made a character at a friends house. My wife would butcher me.
I have to say the gameplay is wonderful, deliberate, and skill based.
Are people still discussing the images I never looked at?

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

@nomotag: I never understand why women seem to like anime so much of all the nerd culture that there is. I never see women more degraded than in anything anime related. I've seen enough boob and panty shots as well as accidents that turn into boobs smacking the dude or something sexual as if some magical pen*s fairy hovers around doing perverted things to girls just being around at the time. I am a perv and I like some of that stuff but judging on anime they paint that sub-culture as bigger closet perverts than I could ever hope to be.

I can't pretend to know the mind of a entire gender, but I have some thoughts. Anime includes more women. Thinking back over all the anime I have watched and I am counting way more female characters then male characters. The depictions are also more varied. A girl in an anime, can be magical, they can be a princess, they can be a robot, they can be black ops agents. They can be strong or weak. Crazy, or sensible. Smart or dumb. (About the only they can't be is ugly.) They aren't just restricted to being the main characters girlfriend. You also find more female main characters more females with agency. In a lot of anime you have like one crappy guy who dose nothing and a half dozen women with goals and a personality

Another aspect might be that anime is much more willing to play with elements like gender and sexuality. Your more likely to find gay characters, transgender characters and transvestite characters presented positively and playfully. It's something I appreciate about anime.

Also I finally wonder if you are just watching different show. Saying something is anime is like saying something is hard bound book. It's a big pool with a lot of shows. When you think of anime, you might think of bleach where dudes beat each other with swords between long monologs and pointless filler, but first anime I thought of was "Otome wa Boku ni Koishiteru". It's a show where a boy has to dress as a girl to attend a all girl's boarding school.

I can't pretend to know the mind of a entire gender, but I have some thoughts. Anime includes more women. Thinking back over all the anime I have watched and I am counting way more female characters then male characters. The depictions are also more varied. A girl in an anime, can be magical, they can be a princess, they can be a robot, they can be black ops agents. They can be strong or weak. Crazy, or sensible. Smart or dumb. (About the only they can't be is ugly.) They aren't just restricted to being the main characters girlfriend. You also find more female main characters more females with agency. In a lot of anime you have like one crappy guy who dose nothing and a half dozen women with goals and a personality

Of course one of those reasons is that they can get away with far more Fanservice, in those they can be those..But in many they'll be showing off plenty of cleavage, panty shots, ecchi style humor and all sorts of generalized things men want to view.

nomotog wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

@nomotag: I never understand why women seem to like anime so much of all the nerd culture that there is. I never see women more degraded than in anything anime related. I've seen enough boob and panty shots as well as accidents that turn into boobs smacking the dude or something sexual as if some magical pen*s fairy hovers around doing perverted things to girls just being around at the time. I am a perv and I like some of that stuff but judging on anime they paint that sub-culture as bigger closet perverts than I could ever hope to be.

I can't pretend to know the mind of a entire gender, but I have some thoughts. Anime includes more women. Thinking back over all the anime I have watched and I am counting way more female characters then male characters. The depictions are also more varied. A girl in an anime, can be magical, they can be a princess, they can be a robot, they can be black ops agents. They can be strong or weak. Crazy, or sensible. Smart or dumb. (About the only they can't be is ugly.) They aren't just restricted to being the main characters girlfriend. You also find more female main characters more females with agency. In a lot of anime you have like one crappy guy who dose nothing and a half dozen women with goals and a personality

Another aspect might be that anime is much more willing to play with elements like gender and sexuality. Your more likely to find gay characters, transgender characters and transvestite characters presented positively and playfully. It's something I appreciate about anime.

Also I finally wonder if you are just watching different show. Saying something is anime is like saying something is hard bound book. It's a big pool with a lot of shows. When you think of anime, you might think of bleach where dudes beat each other with swords between long monologs and pointless filler, but first anime I thought of was "Otome wa Boku ni Koishiteru". It's a show where a boy has to dress as a girl to attend a all girl's boarding school.

"I cant pretend to know the thoughts of a whole nother gender". There are more than 2? Cause there isn't. Second the two genders aren't really different. They have the same thoughts, except for a few subjects.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Of course one of those reasons is that they can get away with far more Fanservice, in those they can be those..But in many they'll be showing off plenty of cleavage, panty shots, ecchi style humor and all sorts of generalized things men want to view.

In series directed at young boys. The minutia of material directed at girls however is quite varied and rarely makes it state side (cause you know, comics are for dudes) and lacks a lot of that. Material directed at older men tends to swing back and forth of its depictions based on the exact age of the target audience. There are few better examples of modern marketing and target demographics at its finest than anime/manga.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I can't pretend to know the mind of a entire gender, but I have some thoughts. Anime includes more women. Thinking back over all the anime I have watched and I am counting way more female characters then male characters. The depictions are also more varied. A girl in an anime, can be magical, they can be a princess, they can be a robot, they can be black ops agents. They can be strong or weak. Crazy, or sensible. Smart or dumb. (About the only they can't be is ugly.) They aren't just restricted to being the main characters girlfriend. You also find more female main characters more females with agency. In a lot of anime you have like one crappy guy who dose nothing and a half dozen women with goals and a personality

Of course one of those reasons is that they can get away with far more Fanservice, in those they can be those..But in many they'll be showing off plenty of cleavage, panty shots, ecchi style humor and all sorts of generalized things men want to view.

If that is the price to pay, some times it is worth it. I still enjoyed mai hime even though they pulled that big boobs joke half a dozen times. Then you can also get the good interesting verity of characters without any of the sexual exploitation. Not every anime include panty shots and cleavage anymore then every book contains math problems. Azumanga Daioh is an adorable comedy about the miss adventures of a group of school girls. It has practically zero exploitation and some very fun and interesting characters. I identify so well with Osaka and her crazy way of looking at things. www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXb0hNMI_B0


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 ThePrimordial wrote:

"I cant pretend to know the thoughts of a whole nother gender". There are more than 2? Cause there isn't. Second the two genders aren't really different. They have the same thoughts, except for a few subjects.

One the many little bits of trivia I have picked up over time is that India has a third gender. Also your right your not going to find huge gulfs of thinking between the genders. It's funny my dad will often say things like "Girls like presents." I normally retort with "That's people dad. Everyone likes presents."

I just want to leave these here, since some of them are of the "Worthless princesses that need to be rescued":

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Street Fighter has a massive narrative behind it (Mortal Kombat even more so...).

And as I already explained to you, the narrative of Streetfighter and Mortal Kombat, massive though it may be, never rises above 'here is a genre character and some stuff happens to them'. Which you can happily plug male and female characters at will... which of course is exactly what Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat did.

The Half Life series could have given an option to play as Gayle Freeman and the narrative wouldn't have been impacted one bit.


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 Seaward wrote:
Now think about your average male in a strength-based contest against your average female.

Waif-fu requires a hell of a lot of suspension of disbelief.

The idea that the protagonist slaughters his way through hundreds of enemy soldiers requires a hell of a lot suspension of disbelief. The stupidly ornate armour that would weight a ton and more often than not work to draw blades in closer requires a hell of a lot of suspension of disbelief.

We're gamers, suspending disbelief to play out fantasies is basically what we do.


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 ThePrimordial wrote:
Oh noes this woman is showing cleavage!!!! That's so sexist!!!
To give an example I've never understood why people would pick on a character like Mai Shiranui for the wrong reasons. Kunoichi always dressed in revealing attire, and they overpower powerful men by using a weakness women don't have (women have far more control around the opposite sex). Shouldn't that be empowering?

Uh, having a character whose special power is using her womanly wiles for manipulation is hardly progressive. Not a problem as a once off, but when it's an industry standard it becomes a pretty major part of the problem.

Look at Dragon's Crown. Yes the Amazon spent way too much time on the leg machine, and yes the Sorceress is a GGG cup. But the Amazon has by far the most DPS, and the Sorceress has by far the most versatility. Revealing attire wearing, generally well endowed characters aren't sexist inherently.

A single character wearing revealing clothes, or having a voluptuous figure isn't sexist. When such characters are constant in games... that's the problem.


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 flamingkillamajig wrote:
@sebster: As far as '300' being fan service for men (man-service?) there was not that much sexual material. In fact if anything considering the times I feel like they were a bit insulting to the messenger. Basically Spartans felt themselves superior to non-Spartans. Keep in mind that scene where the Leonidas's wife talks out of line for the time she sort of did it not for equality purposes (I think) but more for looking down on non-Spartans.

If '300' appeals to all men then you are suggesting all men want action-p*rns. A lot of guys didn't watch it. Also if we're going by stereotypes there are a lot of movies made supposedly with women in mind like romantic comedies and the super ridiculous movies like 'twilight' or something based around an average girl getting the super good looking guy or girls showing their girl power because well girls. Not all women like those kinds of movies just as not all guys like movies like '300'. In fact even men make fun of the movies that are overly macho at times without any sort of point to them (plenty of Arnold flicks like 'Commando' and you'd think they should title a movie 'The Governator' by now).

That's right, being a male fantasy doesn't mean it's a fantasy for all men, it just means that it's a fantasy for some men, and very few women. Just like 40K is basically the classic male fantasy. Not all guys play it, and some women do, but it's still primarily a game that appeals to men.

Nor does a male (or female) fantasy necessary have anything to do with sex. A film like Commando, as you mention, is a great male fantasy - a guy is a total badass, then these villains grab his daughter and he has to slaughter a ton of guys in order to rescue her. 300 is the same, it gives a set of heroes that a lot men want to be like, then shows them slaughtering loads of bad guys and saying bad ass things.

nomotog wrote:I can't pretend to know the mind of a entire gender, but I have some thoughts. Anime includes more women. Thinking back over all the anime I have watched and I am counting way more female characters then male characters. The depictions are also more varied. A girl in an anime, can be magical, they can be a princess, they can be a robot, they can be black ops agents. They can be strong or weak. Crazy, or sensible. Smart or dumb. (About the only they can't be is ugly.) They aren't just restricted to being the main characters girlfriend. You also find more female main characters more females with agency. In a lot of anime you have like one crappy guy who dose nothing and a half dozen women with goals and a personality
Another aspect might be that anime is much more willing to play with elements like gender and sexuality. Your more likely to find gay characters, transgender characters and transvestite characters presented positively and playfully. It's something I appreciate about anime.

Depending on the individual anime, they can also be surprisingly serious and emotional - I think the latter in particular is an important element to many watchers (regardless of gender). Characters in the more serious shows generally appear more flawed and vulnerable (and thus more "real"), and dealing with loss and setbacks often becomes an important part in at least one episode, if not more. I've just begun watching Black Rock Shooter, and man, is that a dark show. Absolutely adore the character design, though.



The constellation with the crappy guy in the middle and half a dozen women is actually its own (sub-)genre, I think? I remember reading something about the guy being an intentionally "flat" character so the male audience can better identify with him. Think I've only seen one show like that, though (Tenshi Muyo).

As to playing with elements of gender and sexuality .. hah, funny that you mention this now. Just last week I had someone explain Maria+Holic to me, because I totally missed the point of this AMV.

But yeah, I'd certainly agree that anime as a whole seems somewhat more inclusive and varied. From the most random comedy like Nichijou to hard sci-fi a la Planetes, it covers the whole range, and oftentimes does a better job at portraying deeper characters and narratives than western media trying to tackle similar subjects, or at least that's what I've taken away from watching both.



Ultimately, of course you'll find both gems and crap in all media, and much depends on personal preferences.

nomotog wrote:Saying something is anime is like saying something is hard bound book. It's a big pool with a lot of shows.

Word. When I hear (or read) people trying to treat anime like a genre, I usually respond with "it's a medium".
Because it really is. Just like you can have lots of variety between different live action movies, the same goes for the drawn stuff.

Slarg232 wrote:I just want to leave these here, since some of them are of the "Worthless princesses that need to be rescued"

What exactly are fan-made videos of opinionated "battles" that are not part of their respective franchise going to do about how those characters are actually perceived by the fans and presented by the company that "owns" them, though? I mean, one could make a "Death Battle" between Barbie and Ken, but I have no idea what that's supposed to express.

 sebster wrote:
The idea that the protagonist slaughters his way through hundreds of enemy soldiers requires a hell of a lot suspension of disbelief. The stupidly ornate armour that would weight a ton and more often than not work to draw blades in closer requires a hell of a lot of suspension of disbelief.

Certainly does.

What starts to get weird is the insistence on the suspension of disbelief for the waif-fu stuff, but insistence on 'realism' for the physique and appearance of said waif.

Seaward wrote:What starts to get weird is the insistence on the suspension of disbelief for the waif-fu stuff, but insistence on 'realism' for the physique and appearance of said waif.

"Waif-fu stuff"? Are you referring to a female character simply behaving in a similar manner or fighting with similar efficiency to a male character?

If this requires suspension of disbelief from you, I can only assume you've never been in the military - and are not very well versed in certain matters of history.

On the other hand, if you were actually referring to suspension of disbelief for the protagonist regardless of gender, then why did you even bring it up in the first place? Surely you don't want to tell us you are applying double standards here?


[edit] Sorry, I forgot some militaries are still lagging a bit behind in that category. Fortunately, this seems to be changing for the US now, too.

Haha have you never heard of a 'Waifu' before lynata? It's rather simple. It's basically somebody's anime wife. Or are you guys talking about something different? Anyway it's like somebody saying 'sabre' from the 'fate' series is their anime wife. Usually it's a female anime character they prefer above all the rest. Possibly having to do with personality and looks.

I know, I know - I just honestly don't have a clue what exactly he means when he's referring to "waifu stuff".

Given the context, I can only assume he means a female character's fighting style and ability - the question is whether he limits his criticism to female characters, or male and female protagonists who are "overdoing" it in general. Neither should register any change in suspension of disbelief between the sexes, one should assume.

(I should probably watch Fate some day - I only know the AMV I posted above!)

I saw 'fate/stay night'. It's alright as it is based on a visual novel (read: H-game). So yeah it has sex in it. I've been meaning to watch fate/zero since that's supposed to be really good.

If I had animes to watch and finish i'd say 'monster' and 'darker than black' are good animes for me to finish up. I've been meaning to watch some 'school rumble' or perhaps 'nichijou' or even 'minami-ke'. Oh man i'm so behind in anime watching. I haven't even finished watching 'shakugan no shana' or 'zero no tsukaima'.

Still I think so many animes are just pervy. I know you guys keep saying otherwise but I just can't change my opinion. When at least half the animes are about teenagers falling in love with each other while fighting the baddies, a harem anime of similar nature or just other stupid crap I dislike I can't enjoy it. I want to see more animes like 'monster' or 'darker than black'. Just something more mature that doesn't have to do with teenagers or grope-tastic moments. Some perviness is fun but like I said the creators and watchers seem like closet perverts in comparison to me and that's an accomplishment though not necessarily a good one.

 Lynata wrote:
"Waif-fu stuff"? Are you referring to a female character simply behaving in a similar manner or fighting with similar efficiency to a male character?

A good example of waif-fu would be ScarJo in The Avengers. A fantastical film, so no problem with it there, but in more "realistic" or at least so-claimed media, it gets on the annoying side.

If this requires suspension of disbelief from you, I can only assume you've never been in the military - and are not very well versed in certain matters of history.

There you'd be quite wrong.

On the other hand, if you were actually referring to suspension of disbelief for the protagonist regardless of gender, then why did you even bring it up in the first place? Surely you don't want to tell us you are applying double standards here?

It was in reply to a poster wondering why you see so few female characters, for example, swinging hammers in melee brawls. My response invited him to compare the average male with the average female in any given melee-based strength contest, and there you'd have your answer.

[edit] Sorry, I forgot some militaries are still lagging a bit behind in that category. Fortunately, this seems to be changing for the US now, too.

Yeah, I wouldn't count on that too much. It's actually only three - one got medically rolled back - and, combined with the zero out of ten who've made it through TBS, we're looking at roughly a 16% success rate for the Marines getting women through infantry courses.

Men are represented completely realistically in video games... I'm not sure why women get worked up about this, it's a gender equal environment. You might get more men in videogames, but they're not realistic representations 99% of the time.

 sebster wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Street Fighter has a massive narrative behind it (Mortal Kombat even more so...).

And as I already explained to you, the narrative of Streetfighter and Mortal Kombat, massive though it may be, never rises above 'here is a genre character and some stuff happens to them'. Which you can happily plug male and female characters at will... which of course is exactly what Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat did.

The Half Life series could have given an option to play as Gayle Freeman and the narrative wouldn't have been impacted one bit.

I think it would have, unless we're suddenly turning Alyx Vance into a Lesbian, or re-writing Half Life.

Alyx Vance is a good example of a female character in videogames, she acts as the human face or reactions of the player. Valve are pretty good at representing their female characters visually, whatever the fans want to do with them is beyond their control but hardly represents the will of the developer. (Seriously try googling images for Zoey from L4D... )

Portal is a game that has a predominantly female cast, with the gents relegated to side roles.
Portal 2 is much the same, the only active males being massive idiots.

I cannot believe that people fund Anita Sarkeesian's video series; she doesn't know anything about gaming, she lies about being a gamer, she baits trolls so she receives hate to further her victim complex, she is the perfect example of a PC thug.

 MetalOxide wrote:
I cannot believe that people fund Anita Sarkeesian's video series; she doesn't know anything about gaming, she lies about being a gamer, she baits trolls so she receives hate to further her victim complex, she is the perfect example of a PC thug.

Well these are issues that should be talked about and I don't see too many people queuing up to do that. Is she the best choice of person to do this? No not by a long shot, but do you want to do it instead?

 carlos13th wrote:
I totally agree with what they did with Ashley. Turned her into something out of jersey shore.

I think this image of Olympic female athletes helps put things into perspective a little in terms of the huge range of body types a woman can have. Games tend mainly contain small big breasted women and either slim muscular men or huge muscular men. I know there are exceptions to that but its a I think its a solid generalisation.

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 kronk wrote:
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Seaward wrote:It was in reply to a poster wondering why you see so few female characters, for example, swinging hammers in melee brawls. My response invited him to compare the average male with the average female in any given melee-based strength contest, and there you'd have your answer.

That's not an answer. Or rather, it isn't one that seems to make sense. As has already been pointed out before, you do not play "the average male/female" - you play an individual, with individual strengths and weaknesses.
Again, you really ought to stop applying stigmas and putting people into pre-labeled boxes. Judge them as unique persons - it's what every human being deserves.

Seaward wrote:There you'd be quite wrong.

Oh? Because it sounds as if you've never heard of the various heroics committed by female warriors throughout the ages, from the Mino regiment to the Womens' Battalions of Death, not to mention various valiant individuals such as certain female members of the Samurai caste, medieval chevaliesses, or tribal warriors fighting both against and with the Roman Legions. The further you go back in history, the less well documented are these cases (with some exceptions, such as the judicial files about medieval mercenary captain Claude des Armoises, who have only recently been uncovered in German archives), but I guess some people have a harder time believing those stories than the ones about male heroes.

Seaward wrote:Yeah, I wouldn't count on that too much. It's actually only three - one got medically rolled back - and, combined with the zero out of ten who've made it through TBS, we're looking at roughly a 16% success rate for the Marines getting women through infantry courses.

Even assuming that this quota doesn't go up any further like it did just now, that's still a rather large number of women you are dismissing from your perception because you are too stuck into some sort of wishful thinking where every female ever has to conform to some sort of "average", as otherwise you would have to "suspend your disbelief".

nomotog wrote:Well these are issues that should be talked about and I don't see too many people queuing up to do that. Is she the best choice of person to do this? No not by a long shot, but do you want to do it instead?

Pretty much this. I'm not too up-to-date on her agenda or experience, but at least her efforts seem to have a positive effect in that this stuff is actually being talked about.

You know. No one has said anything about the smerfette principle. I'm hoping it's because we all just knowingly agree that having one and exactly one female character is messed up and things should never be done that way.

 Lynata wrote:
That's not an answer. Or rather, it isn't one that seems to make sense. As has already been pointed out before, you do not play "the average male/female" - you play an individual, with individual strengths and weaknesses.

And where those strengths make sense, fair play.

Again, you really ought to stop applying stigmas and putting people into pre-labeled boxes. Judge them as unique persons - it's what every human being deserves.

That's an odd thing to say in relation to fictional characters.

Oh? Because it sounds as if you've never heard of the various heroics committed by female warriors throughout the ages, from the Mino regiment to the Womens' Battalions of Death, not to mention various valiant individuals such as certain female members of the Samurai caste, medieval chevaliesses, or tribal warriors fighting both against and with the Roman Legions. The further you go back in history, the less well documented are these cases (with some exceptions, such as the judicial files about medieval mercenary captain Claude des Armoises, who have only recently been uncovered in German archives), but I guess some people have a harder time believing those stories than the ones about male heroes.

Not at all. I was more responding to the, "You've never been in the military," angle than the, "You never studied the history of female warfare," one, plus I simply don't have a dog in the fight of pretending these examples are the rule rather than the exception.

Even assuming that this quota doesn't go up any further like it did just now, that's still a rather large number of women you are dismissing from your perception because you are too stuck into some sort of wishful thinking where every female ever has to conform to some sort of "average", as otherwise you would have to "suspend your disbelief".

No, I was simply pointing out why celebrating an 84% attrition rate for introductory MOS training is perhaps a bit hasty. The bottom line is that when you're picking from the cream of the crop and most of those don't make it, we're once again reinforcing the notion of exceptions rather than rules.

I've encountered several genuinely good female naval aviators in my career, and I've encountered several genuinely atrocious ones. The early days saw the preventable death of one, though I was too young to be flying when she was around. I'm all for allowing anyone who hits the standards to do the job they'd like, depending on the needs of the service, as everything does. I'm as strongly as possible against lowering those standards in the name of diversity, equality, feminism, or anything else. That's inevitably what's going to happen, by the way. Judging individuals as individuals is great. Pretending everyone has the capacity to be an exception isn't.

How does this relate to videogaming? For one, it explains why you don't see a lot of female characters running around the high speed low drag snake-eater units in "realistic" shooters, but you do tend to see them doing waif-fu in the fantasy games - one's trying to stick to and expand upon reality-based source material, one's not.

 Ahtman wrote:

 kronk wrote:
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Exalted for Madeline Kahn.