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 fuusa wrote:

taurising wrote:
If a unit is in a DT, and they confer scout (and outflank if in reserve), then by your logic, if you held them in reserve and then outflank they could assault on the the turn they come in. By your logic they did not make the outflank move, the DT did and therefor there is no restriction on the unit.

Nearly, but not quite.

A unit is held in reserve, embarked on a transport, the unit confers scout and therefore outflank on the vehicle.
Both units come on from reserve (despite the passengers being off-table), even though it is the vehicle doing the moving, so no assault.

What their argument is claiming, is that both units arrive from reserve, but it is the vehicle that is scouting (so in this case, outflanking) which is why its wrong.
For their argument to remain consistent, this must be the case, which it clearly isn't.

No, that's not the argument. You're obviously not willing to actually listen though so it's not worth explaining.

rigeld2 wrote:

 fuusa wrote:

taurising wrote:
If a unit is in a DT, and they confer scout (and outflank if in reserve), then by your logic, if you held them in reserve and then outflank they could assault on the the turn they come in. By your logic they did not make the outflank move, the DT did and therefor there is no restriction on the unit.

Nearly, but not quite.

A unit is held in reserve, embarked on a transport, the unit confers scout and therefore outflank on the vehicle.
Both units come on from reserve (despite the passengers being off-table), even though it is the vehicle doing the moving, so no assault.

What their argument is claiming, is that both units arrive from reserve, but it is the vehicle that is scouting (so in this case, outflanking) which is why its wrong.
For their argument to remain consistent, this must be the case, which it clearly isn't.

No, that's not the argument. You're obviously not willing to actually listen though so it's not worth explaining.

Its also been explained exactly, perfectly well previously, but fuusa appears to be wanting to "trap" me and others who have not made rules up....

 BlackTalos wrote:


But this defies your point (in a way):

Yes, certainly.

 BlackTalos wrote:
The embarked unit is deployed inside the transport - the marines inside do not Scout redeploy, and they do not outflank either. Their DT does these things, and unless (like Infiltrate and possibly outflank, definitely "reserves") the rule states any restrictions about units embarked, they may assault / shoot / run / teleport as normal...?

See this is where things go wrong.

Either both the transport and the passenger unit are redeploying (together) AND both transport and the passenger unit are outflanking, or only the vehicle is redeploying/outflanking in both cases. Do you agree (you seem to)?
That's my point.

There is nothing in the rulebook that says the passenger unit is not redeployed if its transport is (page and sentence if it does).
There is nothing in the rulebook that says the passenger unit is not outflanking if its transport is, on the contrary, it says If a unit with scouts is deployed inside a dedicated transport, they may outflank along with their transport.

= the scout unit outflanks along with its transport.

The question I have asked nos repeatedly is why scout units don't redeploy when they scout in a transport, when they outflank in a transport even though his argument is that the transport does these things and not the passengers. Where is this difference pointed out in the rules?

Tac marines arriving in a drop pod deep strike because their transport deep strikes.
Where is the wording that shows a passenger unit doesn't redeploy/outflank because their transport does???

This the marines inside do not Scout redeploy, and they do not outflank either. Their DT does these things, is the bit nos is avoiding.

No, not avoiding. Finding it still irrelevant

WE have proven they have not redeployed. You have ,again, refused to follow the tenets of this forum and provide ANY support to your contention that they HAVE redeployed. As such your concession is accepted. Oh, no "impasse" - your argument has been debunked, meaning at this moment the case is proven.

Please mark your posts "HYWPI", as per the tenets of this forum.

rigeld2 wrote:

No, that's not the argument. You're obviously not willing to actually listen though so it's not worth explaining.

If I have missed the point, i am willing to listen.

 fuusa wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

No, that's not the argument. You're obviously not willing to actually listen though so it's not worth explaining.

If I have missed the point, i am willing to listen.

Support your argument with some rules, then.

Prove they HAVE redeployed, page and para. WE have proven their deployment has not changed, so the burden is on you.

Or you could refuse to answer these directly-to-the-point questions again. Thats a really good way to convince people.

 fuusa wrote:
There is nothing in the rulebook that says the passenger unit is not redeployed if its transport is (page and sentence if it does).
There is nothing in the rulebook that says the passenger unit is not outflanking if its transport is, on the contrary, it says If a unit with scouts is deployed inside a dedicated transport, they may outflank along with their transport.

= the scout unit outflanks along with its transport.

The question I have asked nos repeatedly is why scout units don't redeploy when they scout in a transport, when they outflank in a transport even though his argument is that the transport does these things and not the passengers. Where is this difference pointed out in the rules?

You quoted it. The embarked unit outflanks along with its transport. Have something similar for Scouting?

Tac marines arriving in a drop pod deep strike because their transport deep strikes.

As the rules say.

Where is the wording that shows a passenger unit doesn't redeploy/outflank because their transport does???

Every other example says that you do X because your transport does X. It's (conspicuously) missing for Scouting. Your assumption is that it's there but you lack evidence.

This the marines inside do not Scout redeploy, and they do not outflank either. Their DT does these things, is the bit nos is avoiding.

False. As the rule you quoted proves, the marines inside do in fact Outflank.
Perhaps you should read the rules you're quoting?

nosferatu1001 wrote:


WE have proven they have not redeployed.

Please mark your posts "HYWPI", as per the tenets of this forum.

You haven't proved anything AND you are trying to persuade me to lie.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 fuusa wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

No, that's not the argument. You're obviously not willing to actually listen though so it's not worth explaining.

If I have missed the point, i am willing to listen.

Support your argument with some rules, then.

Prove they HAVE redeployed, page and para. WE have proven their deployment has not changed, so the burden is on you.

Or you could refuse to answer these directly-to-the-point questions again. Thats a really good way to convince people.

So, in order for me to listen, you advise me to talk, that's very you.
Their deployment clearly has changed as they have redeployed to a new location, the passengers are not where they were due to the scout rule, prove that wrong if you can you haven't yet and I don't think you will.

Refuse to answer questions, no. I don't avoid them by pretending they are irrelevant either.

rigeld2 wrote:

This the marines inside do not Scout redeploy, and they do not outflank either. Their DT does these things, is the bit nos is avoiding.

False. As the rule you quoted proves, the marines inside do in fact Outflank.
Perhaps you should read the rules you're quoting?

Perhaps you should read the posts you're quoting. That was quoted from dark talos.

 fuusa wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

This the marines inside do not Scout redeploy, and they do not outflank either. Their DT does these things, is the bit nos is avoiding.

False. As the rule you quoted proves, the marines inside do in fact Outflank.
Perhaps you should read the rules you're quoting?

Perhaps you should read the posts you're quoting. That was quoted from dark talos.

BlackTalos actually.
And he said this?

There is nothing in the rulebook that says the passenger unit is not outflanking if its transport is, on the contrary, it says If a unit with scouts is deployed inside a dedicated transport, they may outflank along with their transport.

If so then you heavily messed up your quotes. I underlined the part I was referencing.
Hell,

 fuusa wrote:
= the scout unit outflanks along with its transport.

Which is exactly what I said is correct. Which, in your conclusion, you said they didn't do. Please explain how this isn't contradicting yourself?

Fuusa - nope, they are still deployed exactly where they were previously - the vehicle. They have not redeployed

Proven.

Now, page and para showing they HAVE redeployed.

The question is irrelevant - as proven, There is specific mention in Outflank that the Scout unit has also outflanked. Ditto for Deepstriking units. Now, can you please, for once this thread, find an actual rule. with page and paragraph numbers, and exact quotes, proving that when a Transport vehicle redeploys via Scout, so does the unit inside?

Further refusal will again show the strength of your argument.

Lacking a rulebook at the moment, i will abstain from the debate until i can put context to the rules, but as far as i can see,

Either both the transport and the passenger unit are redeploying (together) AND both transport and the passenger unit are outflanking, or only the vehicle is redeploying/outflanking in both cases. Do you agree (you seem to)?
That's my point.

There is nothing in the rulebook that says the passenger unit is not redeployed if its transport is (page and sentence if it does).
There is nothing in the rulebook that says the passenger unit is not outflanking if its transport is, on the contrary, it says If a unit with scouts is deployed inside a dedicated transport, they may outflank along with their transport.

= the scout unit outflanks along with its transport.

If that rule is within Scouts, then it adds the condition: "they are outflanking too" and all that comes with it. Does the rules for scout redeployment have the same wording?

I thought, indeed that either both are true / untrue, but it seems i may be wrong.
I will simply have to go and check again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fuusa wrote:
Their deployment clearly has changed as they have redeployed to a new location, the passengers are not where they were due to the scout rule, prove that wrong if you can you haven't yet and I don't think you will.

This part should be worded differently with an important meaning change:

Their deployment has not changed, they are, and always were, embarked in their DT.
So is their deployment if they outflank or infiltrate.
The later 2 however have RaW letting you know that actually, the occupants of a DT have changed deployment "status". The Scout rule does not have that wording.

Calm down please folks.

Have I just had a post removed (last 20 mins or so)???

I am curious to hear why units that are not on the table (embarked on a transport) arrive from the reserves when their transport does so, as they are not on board. At the same time those same models could capture, how do they do that??

Who takes part in a scout redeployment? Certainly they don't need to specify that is is the redeploying vehicle.

Arguments like this are why I cannot wait for GW to fold.

Clearly we need a complete from the ground up redesign of the rules and the armies.

My reading of the rules is that the unit would be unable to assault first turn.

*didnt read the whole thread, so it might have been mentioned

In waagh Ghazghkull supplement there is a formation called blitz brigade. It gives scout to 5 battlewagons, but those battlewagons have an explicit rule called "know yer limits" that disallows units embarked on them to assault if the vehicle itself made a scout redeployment.

The question is of course: is it merely a friendly reminder of RAW? OR is it something apart from normal RAW and therefore written as a special rule?

Britneyfan12 wrote:
*didnt read the whole thread, so it might have been mentioned

In waagh Ghazghkull supplement there is a formation called blitz brigade. It gives scout to 5 battlewagons, but those battlewagons have an explicit rule called "know yer limits" that disallows units embarked on it to assault if the vehicel itself made a scout redeployment.

The question is of course: is it merely a friendly reminder of RAW? OR is it something apart from normal RAW and therefore written as a special rule?

Yes it was mentioned. And then I commented on how it is possible it is just a reminder.


While I agree RAW does allow it, personally the fact that GW tried to make first turn charges near impossible, what with needing a total move greater than 24", I don't think it is intended.

Naw wrote:
I am curious to hear why units that are not on the table (embarked on a transport) arrive from the reserves when their transport does so, as they are not on board. At the same time those same models could capture, how do they do that??

Who takes part in a scout redeployment? Certainly they don't need to specify that is is the redeploying vehicle.

Sorry, your first sentence doesnt really make any sense. The rules for measuring to embarked units covers the second.

The vehicle is performing the redeployment, the embarked unit never changes where it is deployed