Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I can confirm living more than an hour away from the closest "LGS" that I'm loathe to order anything that isn't delivered to my door.

 insaniak wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
MY problem with KS is the fact that it takes the risk away from companies and puts it on the customer.

That's not entirely true. We've seen any number of companies suffer considerably (and in some cases fold entirely) as a result of unexpected issues once it came time to actually produce the Kickstarter product.

It certainly passes a share of the risk to the 'customer'... but a certain amount of risk is still there for the company. How much depends largely on just how well planned out the Kickstarter was... although a better planned Kickstarter is generally going to result in less risk to the customer as well, so ultimately everyone wins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talys wrote:
I think you misunderstand -- just don't keep anything on the shelf, and essentially turn the Privateer Press part of the business into a discount mail-order desk, with the exception of stuff like hobby tools and paints, that are supplies which will move. The only items I was suggesting to leave on the shelf was the stuff he already had that didn't survive the fire sale Brick & Mortar stores can undersell online stores (or at least be competitive) because the marginal cost of the special order item is zero -- they're ordering from the distributor for other stuff anyhow. So even if you're only making $2 on a blister, well, it was $2 more than you were going to make. It's literally zero risk, because you make all the people who aren't regulars prepay for everything (the trade-off for a nice discount).

This only works, though, if your customers are actually willing to order what you don't have on the shelf. Many are not.

If I walk into your store and you don't have what I'm looking for, I'm not going to stuff around placing an order for something that I'm going to have to make a separate trip back to collect. I'm just going to get what I want somewhere else that does have it... and then next time I want something, chances are I'm going back to the place that had what I wanted, rather than to your store.

Exactly.

A good store might notice what you are ordering, and keep an eye open for more in that vein - but this does them no good if, instead, you go to Amazon and place an order, getting the product faster, more conveniently, and for a lower price.

And if the store refuses to carry the product, because it had been Kickstarted, then he deserves the lost sale.

The Auld Grump

 insaniak wrote:

This only works, though, if your customers are actually willing to order what you don't have on the shelf. Many are not.

If I walk into your store and you don't have what I'm looking for, I'm not going to stuff around placing an order for something that I'm going to have to make a separate trip back to collect. I'm just going to get what I want somewhere else that does have it... and then next time I want something, chances are I'm going back to the place that had what I wanted, rather than to your store.

Yes, you're right. You'll lose a lot of sales by trying to sell from an empty wagon: no argument there. Ultimately, if you do this with everything, I suspect your business would fail.

However, what I was saying is that it makes no sense to tell your customers, "I'm not going to sell Privateer Press anymore." -- because it costs you nothing to tell the same customers, "I'm not going to stock Privateer Press anymore, but I'll order it in for you for the best price in town any time you want." Even if you only make 5% on the sale, it's 5% you otherwise wouldn't have made. Just as importantly, it prevents some of your customers from hopping over to Joe's Wargaming down the road -- where he'll end up buying non-PP stuff too. Or just maybe Mr. Cheap will come and buy the expensive $100 PP model from you because you have the best price, and then in the future, buy something else from you.

Remember the context -- the fellow's PP sales were really low (1 turn annually). So he either figures out how to improve his PP sales, or he has to stock less (or not at all). But why not pick up free special orders?

 Talys wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

This only works, though, if your customers are actually willing to order what you don't have on the shelf. Many are not.

If I walk into your store and you don't have what I'm looking for, I'm not going to stuff around placing an order for something that I'm going to have to make a separate trip back to collect. I'm just going to get what I want somewhere else that does have it... and then next time I want something, chances are I'm going back to the place that had what I wanted, rather than to your store.

Yes, you're right. You'll lose a lot of sales by trying to sell from an empty wagon: no argument there. Ultimately, if you do this with everything, I suspect your business would fail.

However, what I was saying is that it makes no sense to tell your customers, "I'm not going to sell Privateer Press anymore." -- because it costs you nothing to tell the same customers, "I'm not going to stock Privateer Press anymore, but I'll order it in for you for the best price in town any time you want." Even if you only make 5% on the sale, it's 5% you otherwise wouldn't have made. Just as importantly, it prevents some of your customers from hopping over to Joe's Wargaming down the road -- where he'll end up buying non-PP stuff too. Or just maybe Mr. Cheap will come and buy the expensive $100 PP model from you because you have the best price, and then in the future, buy something else from you.

Remember the context -- the fellow's PP sales were really low (1 turn annually). So he either figures out how to improve his PP sales, or he has to stock less (or not at all). But why not pick up free special orders?

From the sound of it, because he values his opinion more highly than that extra sale....

My general response to such retailers is to shop elsewhere.

Game store/comic book store owners are not always the best at separating their opinion from the good of the store.

The Auld Grump

Sure thing -- I understand that. If I walk into a place that offers great prices on something I like, but the store manager is incredibly negative about it, I'd say screw the prices, I'll go somewhere more welcoming

Bringing it back on topic, it's not hard to imagine, in my mind store owners that have a less favorable opinion of vendors that launch via KS rather than through a channel they can profit from, and that may be a reason to have a poor general attitude towards a company.

Though of course this has nothing really to do with PP historically, or the one store we're specifically chatting about (the video game doesn't count, because it's not like that deprived stores of any potential sales), it might apply to other companies that get their products out via kickstarter, and that general attitude may sour the store's sales of that product.

I'm still trying to figure out where these stores are where you can reliably special order stuff are. Most games stores I've been a regular at, are completly unreliable for special orders. You place an order with them and it takes 2-3 weeks before they place it with a distributor, even though they always say they are going to place it the next day.

The store I'm a regular at now I'm friends with the guy that does the ordering, and I still have to brow beat him just to get him to order stuff people other than me want.

Ok and back to the topic, I'm pretty sure Kickstarting Widowers Woods has everything to do with how well Undercity did. It got trashed in reviews on boardgame sites. So they might be kickstarting it to cover themselves.

 Talys wrote:
Sure thing -- I understand that. If I walk into a place that offers great prices on something I like, but the store manager is incredibly negative about it, I'd say screw the prices, I'll go somewhere more welcoming

Bringing it back on topic, it's not hard to imagine, in my mind store owners that have a less favorable opinion of vendors that launch via KS rather than through a channel they can profit from, and that may be a reason to have a poor general attitude towards a company.

Though of course this has nothing really to do with PP historically, or the one store we're specifically chatting about (the video game doesn't count, because it's not like that deprived stores of any potential sales), it might apply to other companies that get their products out via kickstarter, and that general attitude may sour the store's sales of that product.

I view it as akin to a bookstore not carrying an author because the author self published through Amazon - Kickstarter makes it much easier for a company to get into the business, or to increase awareness of their products.

Starting a new company, or starting a new line by an existing company, is much harder now than it was in the past.

Likewise, it is a lot harder for an author to get into the business now than it was in the past. Or even for an established author to publish outside of the genre/series that she or she has become known for. (Carrie Vaughn being an example.)

So, alternate means have come into being.

I blame neither the game company nor the author - it is the current paradigm.

The Auld Grump