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 Backspacehacker wrote:
Why was this thread brought back after a month of no posts on it?

The thread is 9 days old.

I wouldn't but that's because the rule leaks for them make them look pretty bad for me.

pm713 wrote:
I wouldn't but that's because the rule leaks for them make them look pretty bad for me.

I think we'll manage okay. I can see potential in our assault troops, and our ranged troops aren't significantly inferior to their current standing.

The army is definitely gonna play different, that's for sure.

It's basically the same, but now we have to have more psuedo-characters thrown in the mix and a couple of our melee options are reasonably costed...just not penitent engines..

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I wouldn't but that's because the rule leaks for them make them look pretty bad for me.

I think we'll manage okay. I can see potential in our assault troops, and our ranged troops aren't significantly inferior to their current standing.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you only get one AoF per turn now right?

pm713 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I wouldn't but that's because the rule leaks for them make them look pretty bad for me.

I think we'll manage okay. I can see potential in our assault troops, and our ranged troops aren't significantly inferior to their current standing.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you only get one AoF per turn now right?

One naturally on a 2+, one from Celestine automatically, and can buy Imagifiers for additional 4+ chances a turn for 40 points each.

 Souleater wrote:
Just to expand on those: Dark Eldar sold very poorly despite being in the 3rd Edition Starter Set. Yet GW invested a huge amount of resources in updating almost the entire line into plastics and Finecast.

What's "very poorly"? Do we have any idea how poorly it sold? Can we put a number on it? I don't think GW have ever shared their numbers except for the Chapterhouse case, and if I recall correctly those numbers don't go back as far as 3rd edition.

We have no way of comparing the poorness of DE sales in 3rd to the poorness of Sisters sales in 2nd/3rd.

FWIW I saw lots of DE armies back in 3rd

GSC had an ironically cult following despite being long out of print. But GW thought it was worth their time to give them updated plastics and rules.

And again, who knows how well it sold back in the day? Especially when considered as part of the smaller community back then. The GW customer base grew massively through the 90's, I reckon you could make the argument that it's demographic may have slightly shifted between the GSC and Sister's releases, but the GW customer base has remained much the same size since the late 90's when Sister's were first released, you could still make the argument that demographics have shifted, but I think it's probably a harder argument to make.

I was not actually addressing your point.

Fair enough.

 n0t_u wrote:
I would have and still might, but I sold off my sisters because I got fed up with the waiting.

Honestly thinking about that as well but might keep enough for swa for now.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I wouldn't but that's because the rule leaks for them make them look pretty bad for me.

I think we'll manage okay. I can see potential in our assault troops, and our ranged troops aren't significantly inferior to their current standing.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you only get one AoF per turn now right?

One naturally on a 2+, one from Celestine automatically, and can buy Imagifiers for additional 4+ chances a turn for 40 points each.

Honestly that seems a lot less reliable than now which is a bit of an issue for me where the main thing was AoF spam.

pm713 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I wouldn't but that's because the rule leaks for them make them look pretty bad for me.

I think we'll manage okay. I can see potential in our assault troops, and our ranged troops aren't significantly inferior to their current standing.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you only get one AoF per turn now right?

One naturally on a 2+, one from Celestine automatically, and can buy Imagifiers for additional 4+ chances a turn for 40 points each.

Honestly that seems a lot less reliable than now which is a bit of an issue for me where the main thing was AoF spam.

Well right now it's "each unit can do this thing once per game", so at least on the small scale, this is a definite improvement. On the large scale, there's serious falloff in power though.

Yeah, this is a pretty badly designed system.

Actually, if you can have more acts of Faith per turn if you bring a specific model, is a scalable system. In a 1000 army maybe you bring one imagifiers. In 2000 points maybe you bring 4.

They aren't as reliable as before but is not true that the system isn't scalable.

 Galas wrote:
Actually, if you can have more acts of Faith per turn if you bring a specific model, is a scalable system. In a 1000 army maybe you bring one imagifiers. In 2000 points maybe you bring 4.

They aren't as reliable as before but is not true that the system isn't scalable.

An imagifier is a 40 point expenditure to get a 50% chance of getting an act of faith which can be given to a unit within 6" of the imagifier, if the imagifier lives. So for the cost of more than four battle sisters, you can maybe sometimes get an additional act of faith if you're lucky and your opponent hasn't killed your imagifier, who is a character and thus cannot join other squads and can be sniped. OH BUT DON'T WORRY! If you want them to survive (because shooting the imagifier and getting a mortal wound on a character is much easier than taking out a battle sister squad), you can always stick them near a more expensive Celestian squad and have THEM take hits instead! That way you're spending even MORE points on it!

Yes, it is, on a very technical and pedantic level, scaling. It's not very good scaling, which is the point.

 Melissia wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Actually, if you can have more acts of Faith per turn if you bring a specific model, is a scalable system. In a 1000 army maybe you bring one imagifiers. In 2000 points maybe you bring 4.

They aren't as reliable as before but is not true that the system isn't scalable.

An imagifier is a 40 point expenditure to get a 50% chance of getting an act of faith which can be given to a unit within 6" of the imagifier, if the imagifier lives. So for the cost of more than four battle sisters, you can maybe sometimes get an additional act of faith if you're lucky and your opponent hasn't killed your imagifier, who is a character and thus cannot join other squads and can be sniped. OH BUT DON'T WORRY! If you want them to survive (because shooting the imagifier and getting a mortal wound on a character is much easier than taking out a battle sister squad), you can always stick them near a more expensive Celestian squad and have THEM take hits instead! That way you're spending even MORE points on it!

Yes, it is, on a very technical and pedantic level, scaling. It's not very good scaling, which is the point.

Notably, a Battle Sisters Squad with Meltaguns totals up to 79 points. For 40 points more, they can have a 50% chance of manifesting firing those guns twice. It would be better to bring more squads of guns.

The Hand of the Emperor act has potential, but they're going to outrun their Imagifier.

The Passion requires units to get in combat and stay in combat. Only Repentia and Celestine can make use of it, since Seraphim will rather have Divine Guidance, since they can shoot pistols while in CQC. And all of these will certainly outrun the Imagifier.

Spirit of the Martyr is fairly good, though, but a Hospitaller achieves the same end and is 10 points cheaper.

And Celestine gets an automatic act of faith anyway so she doesn't need it.

 Melissia wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Actually, if you can have more acts of Faith per turn if you bring a specific model, is a scalable system. In a 1000 army maybe you bring one imagifiers. In 2000 points maybe you bring 4.

They aren't as reliable as before but is not true that the system isn't scalable.

An imagifier is a 40 point expenditure to get a 50% chance of getting an act of faith which can be given to a unit within 6" of the imagifier, if the imagifier lives. So for the cost of more than four battle sisters, you can maybe sometimes get an additional act of faith if you're lucky and your opponent hasn't killed your imagifier, who is a character and thus cannot join other squads and can be sniped. OH BUT DON'T WORRY! If you want them to survive (because shooting the imagifier and getting a mortal wound on a character is much easier than taking out a battle sister squad), you can always stick them near a more expensive Celestian squad and have THEM take hits instead! That way you're spending even MORE points on it!

Yes, it is, on a very technical and pedantic level, scaling. It's not very good scaling, which is the point.

Well, I wasn't trying to be pedantic about it. I was trying to present other point about it in a honest way, but seeing how at the defensive and hostile you have respond, I'll leave it there.
In no way I want sisters of battle to be a bad army, I want to clarify that.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Why was this thread brought back after a month of no posts on it?

Wha... what are you looking at?

 Melissia wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Actually, if you can have more acts of Faith per turn if you bring a specific model, is a scalable system. In a 1000 army maybe you bring one imagifiers. In 2000 points maybe you bring 4.

They aren't as reliable as before but is not true that the system isn't scalable.

An imagifier is a 40 point expenditure to get a 50% chance of getting an act of faith which can be given to a unit within 6" of the imagifier, if the imagifier lives. So for the cost of more than four battle sisters, you can maybe sometimes get an additional act of faith if you're lucky and your opponent hasn't killed your imagifier, who is a character and thus cannot join other squads and can be sniped. OH BUT DON'T WORRY! If you want them to survive (because shooting the imagifier and getting a mortal wound on a character is much easier than taking out a battle sister squad), you can always stick them near a more expensive Celestian squad and have THEM take hits instead! That way you're spending even MORE points on it!

Yes, it is, on a very technical and pedantic level, scaling. It's not very good scaling, which is the point.

It's been quite amusing to see people jump in like this without looking at just how pointless the old AoF system actually was comparatively. Also not understanding how the new character rules work.

Firstly, characters can only be shot if they're the closest model unless you have sniper. Most things that have sniper are not going to kill a 2+(cover) 6++ 4 wound model in less than 3 turns, especially if you use enough terrain and counter attack properly.

The let's compare to the old system shall we? Each footslog unit got 1 AoF per game, plus 1 for each non-priest HQ. Seems like it scales up reasonably well right? In a fluff list with seraphim and retributors and battle sisters you'd be getting 15-20 aofs per game, more with Simulcrums! Sounds good right? Except here's the thing; basic battle sisters AoF was very meh, to the point where you'd never even consider paying 10pts to get it twice,.

Seraphim had a good one but seraphim themselves were competing for slots with the best non-hq unit in the book. At most you took a tenner to run around with Celestine and with Celestine not having AoF after FoC seraphim would have to jump through hoops just to use it AND couldn't take a simulcrum.

Retributors had a nice AoF in theory, but A) it's actually not particularly impressive for heavy bolters and heavy flamers have anti-synergy with it as the things that rending is very strong against, flamers see reduced effectiveness due to smaller unit sizes. And B) getting to use it twice required at least 22pts, which makes the unit 7 points more expensive than an exorcist who does the same job better and doesn't have an AoF. And literally 0 other units in the book mattered, especially as they relate to AoFs. I mean crusader? Really?

So an efficiently sob army would top out at 8-10 Actual AoFs per game with the standard 6 dominion builds. Less if they went with exorcist builds. And only the domi's AoF would actually matter.

In a 5 turn game under the new system Celestine and 2 imagifiers will statistically give you 14 per game if they all live that long. More realistically you'll start losing imagifiers around turn 3, Celestine should be fine for 5. So you'd be looking at 10-12 total with a very conservative set up. Add on to that that as long as Celestine and 2 ranged units are alive AoFs are LEAGUES better than anything but old holy fusillade.

Are SoB going to be super strong this edition? No, probably not. But it's not going to be because of AoF, it's going to be because shield of faith sucks now and T3 got buttjacked compared to T4+ in the new to wound table.