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daedalus wrote: I'm having a hard time picturing anything being more effective than taking a grand master for the reroll 1's, and nothing but squad after squad of 5 man strikes.
That's 10 smites and 148 bolter shots on turn 1 plus whichever special weapons tickle your fancy at 75 power. Points that's probably well under 1500..
10 5-man Strike Squads (with a Psilencer each) is 1070pts. I think it's worth the 4pts and loss of a pair of falchions to add some d3 wound action. Still enough points for a Librarian and a Hero-type, plus maybe a couple of Razorbacks. % man strike squads are the shizz. It's a shame the Purifiers aren't cheaper, I love that version of Smite, but not a 26pt base cost.
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
You think Purifiers are too expensive? :( I thought they looked really good as a turn 2 stormraven drop perhaps?
Also, with the 5 man strike squads, are you assuming that with 10 squads you're only getting 5 in deep strike first turn? (unless I've missed something... I'm at work and can't double check the rules)
Kahor wrote: Also, with the 5 man strike squads, are you assuming that with 10 squads you're only getting 5 in deep strike first turn? (unless I've missed something... I'm at work and can't double check the rules)
Oh, you want matched play? Uh.... okay, add in another 8 points per 5 man and buy yourself an acolyte to hide somewhere backfield holding objectives and whatnot. Just like in 5th edition.
A couple of things I've noticed with just a few games of 8th under my belt, playing only GK so far:
1. Apothecaries are fantastic if you're running multi-wound models. They are resilient, and keep people alive and fighting for only 90 points
2. Castellan Crowe is back. Against infantry, he is a murder machine. No AP, but he can reliably force 8 wounds per combat, as well as smiting for D6 every turn.
3. Draigo is also very points-efficient. He is tough, a killer, and he buffs GK so well (re-roll ALL hits, close combat and shooting). I've stuck him in a brick of Terminators and Characters, and it has paid off big time
4. Brotherhood and Paladin Ancients are also great. Extra attacks for a close-combat oriented army? Yes please.
5. Psycannons are kind of meh. I've tried a few games of Psycannon Purgation squads, and have been kind of underwhelmed.
6. Strike squads are great as well, with all the Nemesis Swords at AP-3 and doing D3 damage. Our basic troops are great at close combat, and with rapid fire 2 Stormbolters, they dish out a ton of firepower.
Joining in the spirit of that, I want to add some of my observations. I play mixed forces though, generally including Imperial Knights, Assassins, Inquisition and Custodes with my Grey Knights (not all at once, unless it's a huge game) so that may color things a bit.
1. Put a Knight Crusader in your back line. That will solve MOST of your anti-tank shooting issues for 1500-2000 point scale games.
2. Adding a Vindicare or two (at 90 points each) is an easy way to take out Commissars and deal with Guardsmen.
3. Enemy Smites hurt really bad. We get a 50% chance to Deny the Witch, but I had 1 Daemon Prince wipe half a unit of Terminators with a single Smite spell. That's 138 points lost in the blink of an eye.
4. Incinerators on the Dreadknights are great for alpha striking. It's not Torrent, but 12" range means they can Deep Strike in and immediately hit a horde. I paired mine with the Gatlingg Psilencer, which was sadly hitting on 4+ cause he counted as moving but still did all right.
5. The Brotherhood Champion is probably going to die every game, but at just 115 points he'll almost certainly make them back as long as you can get him into a single round of melee combat.
6. Terminators aren't really worth it compared to Paladins unless you really want the extra CP's from a Battalion Detachment over a Vanguard. The 3rd wound helps a lot.
To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/20 15:13:48
Nairul wrote: To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.
I completely agree, also if you worried about getting shot, these guys lost their jumppack status despite keeping their 12" move, they can no be hidden away in stormravens/landraiders/rhinos/razobacks, just like strike squads. There really isn't a reason to take strike squads over interceptors.
Inquisitor Jex wrote: Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.
Peregrine wrote: So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
Nairul wrote: To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.
I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.
Nairul wrote: To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.
I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.
Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.
Nairul wrote: To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.
I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.
Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.
Meh, I feel Dreadknights aren't going to be worth their points, and paladins just cost so damn much and leave a lot on the table when it comes to trying to take/hold multiple objectives. I get more then 2x Interceptors for each paladin. That is a lot more Stormbolter shooting. No quit sure how your going to deal with horde armies without a ton of stormbolter dakka.
Inquisitor Jex wrote: Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.
Peregrine wrote: So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
Well, to be fair, I'm presupposing that you're optimizing for a strict all-in alpha strike. For something slower and more well-balanced, some dreadnoughts seem a reasonable addition at a glance.
I've yet to actually play a game with GK. Finally had one with IG over the weekend. Based upon how that game went, I'm guessing that alphastrike is the new competitive.
Nairul wrote: To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.
I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.
Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.
Meh, I feel Dreadknights aren't going to be worth their points, and paladins just cost so damn much and leave a lot on the table when it comes to trying to take/hold multiple objectives. I get more then 2x Interceptors for each paladin. That is a lot more Stormbolter shooting. No quit sure how your going to deal with horde armies without a ton of stormbolter dakka.
Cause if you try to gun fight something like Guard you're gonna lose. No matter how many bolters we bring they will out shoot us and it will hurt. We need something more like (somehow) getting Purifiers close enough to AoE, assassinating leadership buffing units or healing through the damage (which I'm not sure is possible either.
Nairul wrote: To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.
I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.
Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.
Meh, I feel Dreadknights aren't going to be worth their points, and paladins just cost so damn much and leave a lot on the table when it comes to trying to take/hold multiple objectives. I get more then 2x Interceptors for each paladin. That is a lot more Stormbolter shooting. No quit sure how your going to deal with horde armies without a ton of stormbolter dakka.
Cause if you try to gun fight something like Guard you're gonna lose. No matter how many bolters we bring they will out shoot us and it will hurt. We need something more like (somehow) getting Purifiers close enough to AoE, assassinating leadership buffing units or healing through the damage (which I'm not sure is possible either.
Against Orks your idea has merit though.
I agree about getting in purifiers, or potentially stormravens into the back to get at those pesky tanks. But you aren't going to be able to afford those kinds of things if you are throwing points at paladins.
Inquisitor Jex wrote: Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.
Peregrine wrote: So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
Nairul wrote: To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.
I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.
Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.
Meh, I feel Dreadknights aren't going to be worth their points, and paladins just cost so damn much and leave a lot on the table when it comes to trying to take/hold multiple objectives. I get more then 2x Interceptors for each paladin. That is a lot more Stormbolter shooting. No quit sure how your going to deal with horde armies without a ton of stormbolter dakka.
Cause if you try to gun fight something like Guard you're gonna lose. No matter how many bolters we bring they will out shoot us and it will hurt. We need something more like (somehow) getting Purifiers close enough to AoE, assassinating leadership buffing units or healing through the damage (which I'm not sure is possible either.
Against Orks your idea has merit though.
I agree about getting in purifiers, or potentially stormravens into the back to get at those pesky tanks. But you aren't going to be able to afford those kinds of things if you are throwing points at paladins.
You don't take those things with Paladins. The Paladins can deep strike and deal with tanks on their own. You're more worried about the Commissars and Conscript blobs, which is why I recommend adding Vindicares.
Nairul wrote: To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.
I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.
Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.
Meh, I feel Dreadknights aren't going to be worth their points, and paladins just cost so damn much and leave a lot on the table when it comes to trying to take/hold multiple objectives. I get more then 2x Interceptors for each paladin. That is a lot more Stormbolter shooting. No quit sure how your going to deal with horde armies without a ton of stormbolter dakka.
Cause if you try to gun fight something like Guard you're gonna lose. No matter how many bolters we bring they will out shoot us and it will hurt. We need something more like (somehow) getting Purifiers close enough to AoE, assassinating leadership buffing units or healing through the damage (which I'm not sure is possible either.
Against Orks your idea has merit though.
I agree about getting in purifiers, or potentially stormravens into the back to get at those pesky tanks. But you aren't going to be able to afford those kinds of things if you are throwing points at paladins.
You don't take those things with Paladins. The Paladins can deep strike and deal with tanks on their own. You're more worried about the Commissars and Conscript blobs, which is why I recommend adding Vindicares.
How are paladins dealing with tanks? You have to deep strike 9+" away, have no anti-tank ranged weapons, and have to hope to make a great charge, plus most of the time you will be pushed out of charge range by bubble wrap.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/06/20 17:08:03
Inquisitor Jex wrote: Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.
Peregrine wrote: So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
Nairul wrote: To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.
I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.
Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.
Meh, I feel Dreadknights aren't going to be worth their points, and paladins just cost so damn much and leave a lot on the table when it comes to trying to take/hold multiple objectives. I get more then 2x Interceptors for each paladin. That is a lot more Stormbolter shooting. No quit sure how your going to deal with horde armies without a ton of stormbolter dakka.
Cause if you try to gun fight something like Guard you're gonna lose. No matter how many bolters we bring they will out shoot us and it will hurt. We need something more like (somehow) getting Purifiers close enough to AoE, assassinating leadership buffing units or healing through the damage (which I'm not sure is possible either.
Against Orks your idea has merit though.
I agree about getting in purifiers, or potentially stormravens into the back to get at those pesky tanks. But you aren't going to be able to afford those kinds of things if you are throwing points at paladins.
You don't take those things with Paladins. The Paladins can deep strike and deal with tanks on their own. You're more worried about the Commissars and Conscript blobs, which is why I recommend adding Vindicares.
How are paladins dealing with tanks? You have to deep strike 9+" away, have no anti-tank ranged weapons, and have to hope to make a great charge, plus most of the time you will be pushed out of charge range by bubble wrap.
You use two/three units of Terms/Paladins to deep strike near the tanks you want to charge. An opening in the bubble-wrap should be made by Dreadknight Incinerators, Assassins (on leadership buffs) and any Psilencers. Using a CP to re-roll one of your charge dice, you should almost assuredly be able to get a unit straight to the tank. If you're pushed too far from the tank, you simply charge the (now weakened) bubble-wrap and Pile-In + Consolidate to bring the tank into combat. You can then chase it down reliably the next turn. 3 melee Paladins are only about 165 points. You don't need to kit them out entirely as a heavy weapons platform.
It's a lot more consistent than praying for lucky 5's and 6's on a horde of Storm Bolter fire or relying on a Stormraven or two that can easily get destroyed*.
*Please note, my meta is about 2,000 points for a match and is full of WAAC's. Power-armored marines are lucky to survive past a single round and something like a Stormraven usually goes down by T2 since it can't really get in line of slight blocking cover.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/20 17:18:25
Is everyone playing Grey Knights standalone or are people "allying in" things? I'm wary of the idea of playing super-elite armies given how many multi-damage weapons and MWs are available to some armies.
Nairul wrote: To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.
I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.
Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.
Meh, I feel Dreadknights aren't going to be worth their points, and paladins just cost so damn much and leave a lot on the table when it comes to trying to take/hold multiple objectives. I get more then 2x Interceptors for each paladin. That is a lot more Stormbolter shooting. No quit sure how your going to deal with horde armies without a ton of stormbolter dakka.
Cause if you try to gun fight something like Guard you're gonna lose. No matter how many bolters we bring they will out shoot us and it will hurt. We need something more like (somehow) getting Purifiers close enough to AoE, assassinating leadership buffing units or healing through the damage (which I'm not sure is possible either.
Against Orks your idea has merit though.
I agree about getting in purifiers, or potentially stormravens into the back to get at those pesky tanks. But you aren't going to be able to afford those kinds of things if you are throwing points at paladins.
You don't take those things with Paladins. The Paladins can deep strike and deal with tanks on their own. You're more worried about the Commissars and Conscript blobs, which is why I recommend adding Vindicares.
How are paladins dealing with tanks? You have to deep strike 9+" away, have no anti-tank ranged weapons, and have to hope to make a great charge, plus most of the time you will be pushed out of charge range by bubble wrap.
You use two/three units of Terms/Paladins to deep strike near the tanks you want to charge. An opening in the bubble-wrap should be made by Dreadknight Incinerators, Assassins (on leadership buffs) and any Psilencers. Using a CP to re-roll one of your charge dice, you should almost assuredly be able to get a unit straight to the tank. If you're pushed too far from the tank, you simply charge the (now weakened) bubble-wrap and Pile-In + Consolidate to bring the tank into combat. You can then chase it down reliably the next turn. 3 melee Paladins are only about 165 points. You don't need to kit them out entirely as a heavy weapons platform.
It's a lot more consistent than praying for lucky 5's and 6's on a horde of Storm Bolter fire or relying on a Stormraven or two that can easily get destroyed*.
*Please note, my meta is about 2,000 points for a match and is full of WAAC's. Power-armored marines are lucky to survive past a single round and something like a Stormraven usually goes down by T2 since it can't really get in line of slight blocking cover.
So your talking about turn 2-3 charges at the earliest, because you can't DS any nearby until after you dealt with the bubble-wrap with your expensive Dreaknights, so that you can drop your expensive paladin squads down, hoping for that 9" charge., that also considering your dreadknight even gets in incinerator range, since he can't DS in range, and only has an 8" move now. I get 197 for 3x paladins with great hammers, because your not killing tanks in melee with anything else. Mathwise. 6x attacks at 4+, 3x attacks at 3+ should net you ~5 hits, with means ~3 wounds = 9 damage, ignoring lucky 6+ saves, Thats on average, you won't kill any tanks with that, but you will cripple them, if you roll less, it could be much worse. This doesn't seem remotely reliable. Plus all the points you spend to set up the charge. You could be buying Dreadnoughts with twinlascannon+ML, or Razorbacks with Twinlascannons, or Stormravens with Twin Lascannon (Trend?) +Multimelta,and stormstrike missiles.
FYI, anything that can easily destroy a stormraven, should do the same to paladins.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/20 17:41:27
Inquisitor Jex wrote: Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.
Peregrine wrote: So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
Nairul wrote: To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.
I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.
Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.
Meh, I feel Dreadknights aren't going to be worth their points, and paladins just cost so damn much and leave a lot on the table when it comes to trying to take/hold multiple objectives. I get more then 2x Interceptors for each paladin. That is a lot more Stormbolter shooting. No quit sure how your going to deal with horde armies without a ton of stormbolter dakka.
Cause if you try to gun fight something like Guard you're gonna lose. No matter how many bolters we bring they will out shoot us and it will hurt. We need something more like (somehow) getting Purifiers close enough to AoE, assassinating leadership buffing units or healing through the damage (which I'm not sure is possible either.
Against Orks your idea has merit though.
I agree about getting in purifiers, or potentially stormravens into the back to get at those pesky tanks. But you aren't going to be able to afford those kinds of things if you are throwing points at paladins.
You don't take those things with Paladins. The Paladins can deep strike and deal with tanks on their own. You're more worried about the Commissars and Conscript blobs, which is why I recommend adding Vindicares.
How are paladins dealing with tanks? You have to deep strike 9+" away, have no anti-tank ranged weapons, and have to hope to make a great charge, plus most of the time you will be pushed out of charge range by bubble wrap.
You use two/three units of Terms/Paladins to deep strike near the tanks you want to charge. An opening in the bubble-wrap should be made by Dreadknight Incinerators, Assassins (on leadership buffs) and any Psilencers. Using a CP to re-roll one of your charge dice, you should almost assuredly be able to get a unit straight to the tank. If you're pushed too far from the tank, you simply charge the (now weakened) bubble-wrap and Pile-In + Consolidate to bring the tank into combat. You can then chase it down reliably the next turn. 3 melee Paladins are only about 165 points. You don't need to kit them out entirely as a heavy weapons platform.
It's a lot more consistent than praying for lucky 5's and 6's on a horde of Storm Bolter fire or relying on a Stormraven or two that can easily get destroyed*.
*Please note, my meta is about 2,000 points for a match and is full of WAAC's. Power-armored marines are lucky to survive past a single round and something like a Stormraven usually goes down by T2 since it can't really get in line of slight blocking cover.
So your talking about turn 2-3 charges at the earliest, because you can't DS any nearby until after you dealt with the bubble-wrap with your expensive Dreaknights, so that you can drop your expensive paladin squads down, hoping for that 9" charge., that also considering your dreadknight even gets in incinerator range, since he can't DS in range, and only has an 8" move now. I get 197 for 3x paladins with great hammers, because your not killing tanks in melee with anything else. Mathwise. 6x attacks at 4+, 3x attacks at 3+ should net you ~5 hits, with means ~3 wounds = 9 damage, ignoring lucky 6+ saves, Thats on average, you won't kill any tanks with that, but you will cripple them, if you roll less, it could be much worse. This doesn't seem remotely reliable. Plus all the points you spend to set up the charge. You could be buying Dreadnoughts with twinlascannon+ML, or Razorbacks with Twinlascannons, or Stormravens with Twin Lascannon (Trend?) +Multimelta,and stormstrike missiles.
FYI, anything that can easily destroy a stormraven, should do the same to paladins.
You seem rather confused and locked in a 7th edition mindset.
First, Dreadknights actually can deep strike in range with Incinerators. Look at the profile again. Theirs' are 12" range, not 8". That's why you use them.
Second, we're not talking about a set turn for deep striking. You hold the Paladins back until you have a clear shot. You clear the path on T1? Great. You have to wait till T25 or T3 (since most players will move the bubble around too) then O.K., you do what you have to do. One of the reasons a small Paladin squad is better is precisely because you can hold then back in reserves until the right moment without tying up as many of your points in reserves.
Third, you forgot to add in the likely Hammerhand on the Paladin unit. You didn't show a lot of your work but it also looks like you missed that the Paragon hits on 2+ (3+ with a hammer). But yes, you can wound tanks reliably without taking hammers thanks to Hammerhand.
Fourth, your idea of taking Dreadnoughts, Ravens and Razorbacks is way too vulnerable to being alpha struck straight out of the gate. Guard artillery will grind you into paste in a single turn, 2 tops, unless you're hiding out of line of sight. You take Pallies/Dreads and the like and you can deploy cheaper units out of LoS while holding these in reserve.
You're only going to get 1 or 2 turns out of most of your units. They need to be somewhere safe and accessible until you can maximize the impact of that life span.
+1S with what weapon will reliably wound tanks? Staves? Sure the math is close to the same. You hit better. Wound wrorse. I did accoutrements for the better WS. Just -1 for hammers.
If you are waiting to the bottom of 3 to engage those AM tanks. The rest of you force is probably dead.
Inquisitor Jex wrote: Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.
Peregrine wrote: So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
What? Look at your Datasheet again. Hammerhand isn't +1S. It's a +1 modifier to Wound rolls. That's a massive difference
I never said always wait till T3. I sent part of the benefit is having the flexibility to do so, if necessary, while staying safe. Stop clutching for straw men..
It is +1 to wound. Missed that. You still only wound on 4s unless you have 7 str. Can't do better then 6 without a daemon hammer.
I'm no clutching at anything. Your gambit is so very flawed. I'd love to play against someone hold 2 units of 200pt 3 man paladins in reserves thinking they can DD where ever they want. Make a charge and reliable kill a vehicle
Let's keep this discussion civil and intriguing. Unless you've got no more reasons why it might work. Then proceed to name calling if you must.
Inquisitor Jex wrote: Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.
Peregrine wrote: So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
Coyote81 wrote: It is +1 to wound. Missed that. You still only wound on 4s unless you have 7 str. Can't do better then 6 without a daemon hammer.
I'm no clutching at anything. Your gambit is so very flawed. I'd love to play against someone hold 2 units of 200pt 3 man paladins in reserves thinking they can DD where ever they want. Make a charge and reliable kill a vehicle
Let's keep this discussion civil and intriguing. Unless you've got no more reasons why it might work. Then proceed to name calling if you must.
There's literally no name calling anywhere in any of my posts. I'm really not sure what you're on about.
Hammers with Hammerhand wound anything short of an Imperial Knight class toughness on a 2+. Falchions get you to 4+ for the same category.
Your posts continue to be replete with mischaracterizations which is hindering this discussion. Said 2-3 Paladin or Terminator units as an example of what to aim at a vehicle. You interpret this now as 2 Paladin squads in the entire army.
I also said you deep strike them in when the situation is appropriate and safe flexibility is one of the key strengths in their favor. You have twice now mischaracterized that as an iron rule not to deep strike till turn 3.
So yeah, those are strawmen. That's not the strategy I'm advocating.
Nairul wrote: To everyone praising Strike Squads... why take a 5-man Strike Squad when, for 20 pts more, you could take an equally-equipped 5-man Interceptor Squad? At 12" movement ignoring terrain/models they're incredibly mobile, and more importantly Interceptors are GK units you can actually set up on the table in Matched Play because of their Personal Teleporters. That's something incredibly important for GK this edition, as it allows for us to keep our more threatening units (Dreadknights, Paladins, Draigo, etc.) in reinforcements.
I suppose really points optimum would be to talk half and half, so that you can immediately redeploy them for the full-army alpha strike while still getting some of them on the cheap. Wouldn't save you much, but might save enough for those handful of psilencers or whatever you want to bring. I was looking at them for the ultrafast CC rush.
Half and half sounds reasonable if you're sold on bringing a marine-based GK list... which could be interesting because it's more bodies on the field. To me though, our finite reinforcement slots are best filled by Dreadknights and/or Paladins w/ Apothecary. Both are threats which seem to outclass the Strike Squad.
Meh, I feel Dreadknights aren't going to be worth their points, and paladins just cost so damn much and leave a lot on the table when it comes to trying to take/hold multiple objectives. I get more then 2x Interceptors for each paladin. That is a lot more Stormbolter shooting. No quit sure how your going to deal with horde armies without a ton of stormbolter dakka.
Cause if you try to gun fight something like Guard you're gonna lose. No matter how many bolters we bring they will out shoot us and it will hurt. We need something more like (somehow) getting Purifiers close enough to AoE, assassinating leadership buffing units or healing through the damage (which I'm not sure is possible either.
Against Orks your idea has merit though.
I agree about getting in purifiers, or potentially stormravens into the back to get at those pesky tanks. But you aren't going to be able to afford those kinds of things if you are throwing points at paladins.
You don't take those things with Paladins. The Paladins can deep strike and deal with tanks on their own. You're more worried about the Commissars and Conscript blobs, which is why I recommend adding Vindicares.
How are paladins dealing with tanks? You have to deep strike 9+" away, have no anti-tank ranged weapons, and have to hope to make a great charge, plus most of the time you will be pushed out of charge range by bubble wrap.
You use two/three units of Terms/Paladins to deep strike near the tanks you want to charge. An opening in the bubble-wrap should be made by Dreadknight Incinerators, Assassins (on leadership buffs) and any Psilencers. Using a CP to re-roll one of your charge dice, you should almost assuredly be able to get a unit straight to the tank. If you're pushed too far from the tank, you simply charge the (now weakened) bubble-wrap and Pile-In + Consolidate to bring the tank into combat. You can then chase it down reliably the next turn. 3 melee Paladins are only about 165 points. You don't need to kit them out entirely as a heavy weapons platform.
It's a lot more consistent than praying for lucky 5's and 6's on a horde of Storm Bolter fire or relying on a Stormraven or two that can easily get destroyed*.
*Please note, my meta is about 2,000 points for a match and is full of WAAC's. Power-armored marines are lucky to survive past a single round and something like a Stormraven usually goes down by T2 since it can't really get in line of slight blocking cover.
-I was quoting your from earlier, you said you use 2-3 units of terms/paladins to DS If it was paladins like we were talking about thast 400-600 points in reserve, sitting around being "flexible" as you put t, because you can't reliable DS turn one against a smart player. As for how many paladins you have in your army, it won't really be all that many if you have some ~500pts of paladins in reserve.
-Using Falchions with 4+ to wound seems not as good, but lets do some quick napkin math.
Falchions:
Paladins:8 attacks at 3's to hit, 4's to wound: 8 x (2/3) = 5.33 hits x 1/2. = 2.67 wounds causing D3 wounds, assume average of 2 for ease = 5.33 wounds
plus
Paragon: 4 attacks at 2's to hit and 4's to wound: 4x (5/6) = 3.3333 x (1/2) = 1.673 causing D3 (ie. 2 )= 3.33 wounds
Total of 8.6 wounds, pretty good.
Hammers:
Paladins:6 attacks at 4's to hit 2's to wound: 6 x (1/2) = 3 x (5/6) = 2.5 wounds x 3 damage per wound = 7.5 wounds
plus
Paragon: 3 attack at 3's and 2's: 3x (2/3) = 2 x 5/6= 1.67 wounds doing 3 damage each = 5 wounds.
Total of 12.5 wounds
I really am trying to picture your army in my head, this is what I see.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/20 19:30:30
Inquisitor Jex wrote: Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.
Peregrine wrote: So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
Again, *Paladins or Terminators*. I'm not here to say "the following list is the best list". I'm saying what units work well with good strategies.
It's about 39 more points to take 3 hammers. I'd say not worth it for 4 wounds, but that's a decision for each commander to make based on their list in total.
It's 495 points if you take 3 Paladin units (which is only one composition or load out of many). That's fine to hold in reserve. Especially since our other options will either be alpha struck by our enemy or forced to hide in such remote portions of the map they won't do us much good.
T1 drops are possible. Honestly depends how the rest of your army deals with the bubble wrap or if you decide you can charge the wrap and pile-in/consolidate into a vehicle/monster.
EDIT: Since you really want to talk about lists while I'm just trying to analyze loose groupings of units:
There's literally dozens of combinations you could take that would include the options I've talked about here. Just on GK alone I've mentioned Paladins, Terminators, Brotherhood Champions, Dreadknights. I've only frowned on powered armored marines (though there's an exception for Interceptors because they can hide outside LoS and still be effective) and Stormravens/Dreadnoughts.
I've also said I frequently make ally lists rather than run mono-GK. So in my typical lists you'll see Imperial Knights (like a Crusader) in the back for fire support, Assassins, even Mechanicus. You can just slot in Onager Dune Crawlers with Neutron Lasers into a Heavy Support slot. There's just too many options to make a mono-force optimal until we get more buffs for having more keywords in common.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/20 19:47:52
Audustum wrote: Again, *Paladins or Terminators*. I'm not here to say "the following list is the best list". I'm saying what units work well with good strategies.
It's about 39 more points to take 3 hammers. I'd say not worth it for 4 wounds, but that's a decision for each commander to make based on their list in total.
It's 495 points if you take 3 Paladin units (which is only one composition or load out of many). That's fine to hold in reserve. Especially since our other options will either be alpha struck by our enemy or forced to hide in such remote portions of the map they won't do us much good.
T1 drops are possible. Honestly depends how the rest of your army deals with the bubble wrap or if you decide you can charge the wrap and pile-in/consolidate into a vehicle/monster.
EDIT: Since you really want to talk about lists while I'm just trying to analyze loose groupings of units:
There's literally dozens of combinations you could take that would include the options I've talked about here. Just on GK alone I've mentioned Paladins, Terminators, Brotherhood Champions, Dreadknights. I've only frowned on powered armored marines (though there's an exception for Interceptors because they can hide outside LoS and still be effective) and Stormravens/Dreadnoughts.
I've also said I frequently make ally lists rather than run mono-GK. So in my typical lists you'll see Imperial Knights (like a Crusader) in the back for fire support, Assassins, even Mechanicus. You can just slot in Onager Dune Crawlers with Neutron Lasers into a Heavy Support slot. There's just too many options to make a mono-force optimal until we get more buffs for having more keywords in common.
Ok, If we aren't talking mono-force, then all kinds of things change. I'm trying to refrain from making an Imperial Mash-Army for now, until I learn a little more about each army individually. A Mash is easily going to be the most optimal, but imo also completely unfair to non-imperial armies, except maybe Aeldari factions. How are Tau/Necron/Orks/Nids suppose to compete with an imperial army? I think Tournaments might make you use a mre spcific keyword. Maybe use the current build structure but ban the use of keywords Imperial/Chaos/Aeldari.
Inquisitor Jex wrote: Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.
Peregrine wrote: So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
I have to say, if we ever need AT in this edition we should just ally in one of the FWSHV. All of them hit way above their weight AND have that baneblade rule that allows them to shoot out of combat.
Hell the Spartan Assault Tank has great potential with 8 lascannon shots and 12 heavy bolter shots (15 if you take the additional one). It can move 25 models and with the new transport rules that means we could literally move an entire army around in it. Not that I would recommend that.
Still, it means we could almost always get first turn if we want because we could plop down one model and be done.
only problem is that it costs almost as much as a fully loaded knight at 514.
It only allows him to teleport in, doesn't grant him the same rules as our interceptors?
No, interceptors can deep strike and shunt 30 inches as defined by their rules. Dreadknight has to purchase his teleporter, which states what it does (it only allows deepstrike).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/20 20:53:06
Audustum wrote: Again, *Paladins or Terminators*. I'm not here to say "the following list is the best list". I'm saying what units work well with good strategies.
It's about 39 more points to take 3 hammers. I'd say not worth it for 4 wounds, but that's a decision for each commander to make based on their list in total.
It's 495 points if you take 3 Paladin units (which is only one composition or load out of many). That's fine to hold in reserve. Especially since our other options will either be alpha struck by our enemy or forced to hide in such remote portions of the map they won't do us much good.
T1 drops are possible. Honestly depends how the rest of your army deals with the bubble wrap or if you decide you can charge the wrap and pile-in/consolidate into a vehicle/monster.
EDIT: Since you really want to talk about lists while I'm just trying to analyze loose groupings of units:
There's literally dozens of combinations you could take that would include the options I've talked about here. Just on GK alone I've mentioned Paladins, Terminators, Brotherhood Champions, Dreadknights. I've only frowned on powered armored marines (though there's an exception for Interceptors because they can hide outside LoS and still be effective) and Stormravens/Dreadnoughts.
I've also said I frequently make ally lists rather than run mono-GK. So in my typical lists you'll see Imperial Knights (like a Crusader) in the back for fire support, Assassins, even Mechanicus. You can just slot in Onager Dune Crawlers with Neutron Lasers into a Heavy Support slot. There's just too many options to make a mono-force optimal until we get more buffs for having more keywords in common.
Ok, If we aren't talking mono-force, then all kinds of things change. I'm trying to refrain from making an Imperial Mash-Army for now, until I learn a little more about each army individually. A Mash is easily going to be the most optimal, but imo also completely unfair to non-imperial armies, except maybe Aeldari factions. How are Tau/Necron/Orks/Nids suppose to compete with an imperial army? I think Tournaments might make you use a mre spcific keyword. Maybe use the current build structure but ban the use of keywords Imperial/Chaos/Aeldari.
We're in agreement on allies at least! I think these can work well with a mono, but without some changes I don't think mono will be top tier.
I know Nova is letting any keyword Allies fly so far. Nova is the tournament my area follows so I'm not as sure as you. We need some results to see how the others hold.
for 40k
for infinity 
