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ZebioLizard2 wrote: Well if we're going to forget the whole plague usage, the general assassinations, the things.. It's less that it's defensible for the Horde to strike first.. But moreso for the Forsaken to strike first because everyone (except Jaina, who hates Orcs because of Garrosh) wants Sylvanas, because Sylvanas has pissed off so many power players that if she didn't get the Horde behind her and fighting. They might've just overall cut the Forsaken and let them rot thanks to their actions all these years.
Oh she's totally evil even before Teldrassil, but I think her motivations could be understood and sympathized with up to that point.
She's the leader of a faction that spent the first 4-5 years of the game under constant siege because a madman raised them from the dead against their will and a whole bunch of still living folks didn't give a gak that they weren't part of the Scourge anymore. At the time of of her invasion of Gilneas she has no reason whatsoever to think the Alliance will ever allow her to live in peace except through force, and her force dwindles over time since her population can't grow by normal means. As black as her ethics are, she prior to the start of BFA came off as an extreme pragmatist/well-intentioned extremist who did bad gak because all of her options lay between "do bad gak" and "just die." Par for the course for the franchise honestly. A lot of the series villains end up where they are because their choices suck or because they're horrifically flawed individuals (often times both).
Then at the start of BFA she murders a bunch of decent people who are making progress on reconciling the rift between the Foresaken and their still living families because heaven forbid she end up without a people to lead, and then she switches a semi-sensible plan to force a peace for genocide because someone used what is apparently her trigger word. At this point she can't be sold as extremely pragmatic or an extremist juggling rotten options. She's just an out and out monster.
Do remember that she also planned to kill her sister and her children (after the death of her husband!)in order to bring them into the Forsaken fold about.. was it Cataclysm or MoP? hm. Regardless she's been doing things selfishly for the longest period of time that it genuinely does not surprise me that she chose to kill a bunch of Forsaken that were given peace.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/18 15:54:54
Do remember that she also planned to kill her sister and her children (after the death of her husband!)in order to bring them into the Forsaken fold about.. was it Cataclysm or MoP? hm.
Yeah totally evil, but she's desperately lonely and wants to be with her family? Her means are fethed up as usual but her motivation is relatable. EDIT: Not to mention I'll point out that in one of the pre-release comics she has a huge argument with both her sisters, deep in Horde territory, with Dark Banshee's waiting in ambush, and she not only lets her sisters leave peacefully but looks outright miserable that their relationship has become so strained. Her thoughts about killing them and raising them from the dead come off more like a cathartic exercise than something she actually wants to do.
Compare that to her Warbringer video, where someone says "you can't kill hope" and she instantly switches to fethed up means with lacking in sympathy motivation because apparently hope is her berserk button.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/18 16:02:39
Eumerin's POV is supported by established lore. Your POV is speculation and relies on speculation of what might have happened if you're properly reading the minds of fictional characters. So yeah typical Hordie head cannon to try and drag the alliance down to the level of their current leadership.
No it's not. The lore states orcs were being rounded up in to camps. The result of that camp was slavery or death. A lot of times the slavery resulted in death.
How am I going against lore when I am using facts about the lore. The Alliance kind of drug themselves down when they were giving orcs the option of slavery or death.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/18 20:30:12
Eumerin's POV is supported by established lore. Your POV is speculation and relies on speculation of what might have happened if you're properly reading the minds of fictional characters. So yeah typical Hordie head cannon to try and drag the alliance down to the level of their current leadership.
No it's not. The lore states orcs were being rounded up in to camps. The result of that camp was slavery or death. A lot of times the slavery resulted in death.
How am I going against lore when I am using facts about the lore. The Alliance kind of drug themselves down when they were giving orcs the option of slavery or death.
You may want to use actual facts. They were mostly just prisoners. Aside from Blackmoore, who as I mentioned previously trying to turn Orcs into warriors to conquer the Alliance for himself.
Spoiler:
The triumphant humans, however, all but tore their Alliance apart on what to do with their defeated enemies. While Terenas Menethil II of Lordaeron believed the orcs would one day lose their lust for conquest, Thoras Trollbane of Stromgarde and Genn Greymane of Gilneas demanded their executions. They effectively settled on a sentence of life imprisonment, although disagreement and anger over the issue remained entrenched as nations left the Alliance in various frustrations.
Amidst the Alliance's turmoil, many of the camp wardens began to notice an unsettling change come over their orc captives. The orcs' efforts to escape from the camps or even fight amongst themselves had greatly decreased in frequency over time. The orcs were becoming increasingly aloof and lethargic. Though it was difficult to believe, the orcs - once held as the most aggressive race ever seen on Azeroth - had completely lost their will to fight. The strange lethargy confounded the Alliance leaders and continued to take its toll on the rapidly weakening orcs.[5]
Some speculated that some strange disease, contractible only by orcs, brought about the baffling lethargy. But Archmage Antonidas of Dalaran posed a different hypothesis. Researching what little he could find of orcish history, Antonidas learned that the orcs had been under the crippling influence of demonic power for generations. He speculated that the orcs had been corrupted by these powers even before their first invasion of Azeroth. Clearly, demons had spiked the orcs' blood, and in turn the brutes had been granted unnaturally heightened strength, endurance, and aggression.[5]
Antonidas theorized that the orcs' communal lethargy was not actually a disease, but a consequence of racial withdrawal from the volatile warlock magics that had made them fearsome, bloodlusted warriors. Though the symptoms were clear, Antonidas was unable to find a cure for the orcs' present condition. Then too, many of his fellow mages, as well as a few notable Alliance leaders, argued that finding a cure for the orcs would be an imprudent venture. Left to ponder the orcs' mysterious condition, Antonidas' conclusion was that the orcs' cure would have to be a spiritual one.[5]
As their lethargy increased, the orcs became even more apathetic and resigned to their fates. Fights, whether between two prisoners or between prisoners and guards, decreased in frequency until they were virtually unheard of. The once fearsome race of warriors had become a pitiful people to whom even moving around didn't seem worth the effort, and many prisoners could be seen sitting in their own filth. Because the prisoners at the camps had gone so long without making trouble, security measures become extremely lax. Since nobody ever tried to escape, fewer and fewer guards were assigned to each camp and the walls were easy to scale if one were so inclined, which no-one ever was
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/19 21:03:19
So I should look at the actual lore which consists of two major members of the Alliance at the time calling for their executions and then leaving said Alliance(No Internment Camps in their lands, oddly). I should also disregard the guy actively enslaving them as proof that they are indeed being enslaved?
Dreadwinter wrote: So I should look at the actual lore which consists of two major members of the Alliance at the time calling for their executions and then leaving said Alliance(No Internment Camps in their lands, oddly). I should also disregard the guy actively enslaving them as proof that they are indeed being enslaved?
Is this your argument?
If you want to be fallacious, sure you can say that's my argument.
But lets put it bluntly, two members of the alliance got overruled. One got pissed, built a big wall and decided "Nah, screw you guys", and the other just decided to follow suit under the pressure of the rest of the alliance which you may note is more then just two members (Two out of Ten members of the second war alliance for note).
What you are however implying is that every single camp decided "Orcs be slaves or death!" while distastefully pulling out a holocaust reference. When only one man and his goons attempted such because of the lax oversight, to try and state the entire alliance was forcing Orc Slaves while killing them slowly because of slavery, or killing them because they didn't desire slavery.. Yeah no, you've been disingenuous.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/20 10:41:05
You said the Alliance was putting them into camps to wipe them out originally, then you moved onto Slavery or Death, and now this. Blatant goalpoal moving. Thanks for playing!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/20 21:44:49
ZebioLizard2 wrote: You said the Alliance was putting them into camps to wipe them out originally, then you moved onto Slavery or Death, and now this. Blatant goalpoal moving. Thanks for playing!
When the slavery involves fighting a war which will ultimately end in their deaths......
Goalpost moving. Lol, it really helps the argument when you guys understand the consequences of the Alliances action. Maybe when that happens we can have a conversation where the Alliance is shown in a bad light. But rivht now the fanboy is too strong in here.
I play Horde, but thanks for trying the "Fanboy" card when you haven't presented an actual case. Resorting to Ad Hominem is certainly going to help.
When the slavery involves fighting a war which will ultimately end in their deaths......
Right, the thing of the matter is you are using a very broad statement with "The Alliance is doing this". When none of the Alliance is doing this. The Elves, Lordaeron, Stormwind, Gnomereagon have nothing to do with this.. It's this one dude and a bunch of his hired mercs who wanted to use the Orcs as slaves.
It's kind of like saying every member of the Horde is responsible for demon summoning and genocide because Gul'dan existed as part of The Horde. Thrall is just a demon worshipping, demon blood giving, genocidal maniac because The Horde wanted to genocide everything for demons. It's a very disingenuous way of saying something.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/21 02:56:38
Remembet when I said one guy was responsible for the enslavement while members of the Alliance were calling for their executions.
I sure do! It was only a few posts ago! If you scroll up 4 posts you can see it. Try not putting words in mouths. Yadda yadda, something about Pepperidge Farms.
So this discussion is becoming way less entertaining to read, let's go back to something more productive. Not familiar with post-War3 lore, is it now something that seems possible to have, say, some orcs defecting from the Horde to join the Alliance or is it just not going to happen and race (shouldn't it be species rather than race) still matters a lot?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
The Alliance wanted the Horde wiped out. Except for one guy who wanted to jse them as a slave army.
Yep, except you still did it for "The Alliance wanted the Horde wiped out" part. Which was.. once again, not the entire alliance.
Well, I cant argue with somebody lacking reading comprehension.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:So this discussion is becoming way less entertaining to read, let's go back to something more productive. Not familiar with post-War3 lore, is it now something that seems possible to have, say, some orcs defecting from the Horde to join the Alliance or is it just not going to happen and race (shouldn't it be species rather than race) still matters a lot?
Highly unlikely. The factions are pretty polarized right now.
While I kind of get where Sylvanas is coming from, in a lasting peace between the alliance and horde will probably never happen, it feels like her go-to solution of 'burn a tree full of civilians' was a trifle harsh.
#notmywarchief
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So this discussion is becoming way less entertaining to read, let's go back to something more productive. Not familiar with post-War3 lore, is it now something that seems possible to have, say, some orcs defecting from the Horde to join the Alliance or is it just not going to happen and race (shouldn't it be species rather than race) still matters a lot?
Well, the Alliance just had a bunch of ex-Blood Elves join them (the Void Elves) because they'd rather the Horde didn't have access to the stuff they've discovered. The whole High Elf/Blood Elf/Void Elf stuff makes this a rather special case though; I doubt any other Horde race that isn't Pandaren would be welcome in the Alliance. There's kinda a reluctance to having defenseless civilians slaughtered repeatedly, for some reason.
Also, on the subject of Alliance vs. Horde brutality:
First War: Horde shows up high on Demon blood and starts killing people. Azeroth (what would later become Stormwind) defends itself but is ultimately sacked and have to run to Lordaeron to ask for help.
Second War: The Horde pushes north and attacks Khaz Modan and other Dwarven holdings. The newly-formed Alliance kicks the Orcs out of Stormwind and win the war, putting most of the remaining Orcs in the internment camps.
Third War: Everyone vs. the Burning Legion, except Grom Hellscream feths up again and kills Cenarius while high on Demon blood (again!).
Circa Wrath of the Lich King: The Horde stabs the Alliance in the back and kill a bunch of Alliance troops advancing into Icecrown, significantly weakening the war effort against the Lich King.
Circa Cataclysm: Sylvanas uses the Blight on Southshore and attacks Gilneas.
Circa Mists of Pandaria: Horde forces enslave local Pandaren, chopping down their apple orchards and kidnapping their children in order to keep them in line. The Alliance lies about building an advance base. Totally equivalent. Garrosh violates the neutrality of Dalaran and nukes Theramore. The Alliance defends itself, as usual.
When has the Alliance actually been the aggressor on a macro scale? I'm sure I'm missing a bunch of stuff (genuinely, not being sarcastic here), but I can't for the life of me come up with a case.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/22 10:21:30
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
I recently reached 115 and now have a quest to visit Nathaniel BC and go to three (?) new zones? I havent finished any of the troll zones as of yet. Does that matter?
Is there anyway to respec your heart of azure gear - like the little azurite gem slots in them - pull them out and put in new ones?
I randomly found a hearthstone in my bags to return me to my garrison (never had a garrison). Wassat do?
Is there a final talent point at 120 for all classes?
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
The quest to go to the three Alliance zones is your War Campaign. I'd focus on getting to 120 first and then doing the War Campaign.
Yes, you can respec your Azerite trait, although I have no clue where Horde players do it.
The Garrison was part of the Warlords of Draenor expansion, so you'd end up in Draenor if you used it.
No, there are no level 120 talents, Azerite gear fills that function.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Kap'n Krump wrote: While I kind of get where Sylvanas is coming from, in a lasting peace between the alliance and horde will probably never happen, it feels like her go-to solution of 'burn a tree full of civilians' was a trifle harsh.
#notmywarchief
If I'm Saurfang listening to her rationale, I can apply the same rationale to the alliance between the forsaken and the rest of the horde. Its always been an alliance of convenience and even weaker than any lasting peace between the living Horde and the Alliance....
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Not familiar with post-War3 lore, is it now something that seems possible to have, say, some orcs defecting from the Horde to join the Alliance or is it just not going to happen and race (shouldn't it be species rather than race) still matters a lot?
The only example I know of a member of a Horde race being in the Alliance aside from Alleria bringing in some Void Elves is Valeera Sanguinar. Even then though Valeera isn't loyal to the Alliance as much as she is to Varian (who is dead now), and by extension Anduin on account of the later being the former's son. In fact she only took a position as Varian's body guard on the condition that she wouldn't be a member of the Alliance but a neutral figure politically something that Anduin has used before BfA to secretly negotiate with Baine.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/23 03:15:59
Circa Wrath of the Lich King: The Horde stabs the Alliance in the back and kill a bunch of Alliance troops advancing into Icecrown, significantly weakening the war effort against the Lich King.
Circa Wrath of the Lich King: The Horde stabs the Alliance in the back and kill a bunch of Alliance troops advancing into Icecrown, significantly weakening the war effort against the Lich King.
Siiiiiigh
To clarify, this isn't about the Wrathgate, this is about the metric button of Alliance troops in Icecrown proper that died because the Horde attacked them in a blizzard.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Well, the Alliance just had a bunch of ex-Blood Elves join them (the Void Elves) because they'd rather the Horde didn't have access to the stuff they've discovered. The whole High Elf/Blood Elf/Void Elf stuff makes this a rather special case though; I doubt any other Horde race that isn't Pandaren would be welcome in the Alliance. There's kinda a reluctance to having defenseless civilians slaughtered repeatedly, for some reason.
Blizzard love to put elves in all factions and then sprinkle in some more elf it seems. Even in Warcraft 3 there were elves in two factions. Isn't having two different subfactions of elves in the alliance very redundant though?
Anyway, if orcs, trolls and taurens can't join the alliance (Can goblins do it? I mean they were neutrals in War3, are they now 100% Horde aligned and unwelcome in Alliance?) that changes things quite a lot. It's not just about political affiliations, it's about race (well, not race, species actually).
[edit]From what I heard now even the leader of the Horde is an elf lol. How long until the leader of the Alliance is one too? Though afaik the leader of the Alliance is always human.[/edit]
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/23 21:43:54
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
The goblins are all varied factions, and some do work with the Alliance. Some are quite neutral like Booty Bay and the like.
Taurens can partially be part of the Alliance, since the Druidic order tends to work together regardless of politics, there were some neutral trolls that worked with the Alliance as well, but overall they tend to lean horde if they aren't of the insane/hateful category.
Blizzard love to put elves in all factions and then sprinkle in some more elf it seems. Even in Warcraft 3 there were elves in two factions.
Isn't having two different subfactions of elves in the alliance very redundant though?
Honestly I think the Void elves were added 1) to give the Alliance a token questionable team mate (got some void lords whispering to you eh?) and 2) the blood elf model is easily the best looking in the game if only because most of the character models in game show their age pretty badly and now the Alliance gets them too.
And to be fair the Horde has more elves now too. They basically gave the Horde their own version of Night Elves while the Alliance got some Blood Elf action. Really I think the most redundant alliance races are the new Tauren and Draenei. Not that I don't appreciate cool moose antlers for my fantasy cow people cause those do look neat, but lore wise both those races feel really lack luster. At least the other additions have something interesting or potentially interesting going on.
Updating the TBC starting areas a little wouldn't go amiss, especially for the Draenei. I started a new Draenei character or two back in Legion, and playing through the same starting area I did 11 years ago as if nothing more of the story had happened was a huge disconnect. For some reason the Blood Elf one doesn't feel to have aged nearly as poorly to me.
Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.
Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.
"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation
Do you guys think we will get an updated Northrend? We got a vanilla update with Cata and a kinda updated version of Outlands with Warlords. Makes sense that Northrend would be next.
Honestly, I could go for an actual Outlands update. Those zones need freshened up and polished so bad. They are my least favorite zones when leveling, I try my hardest to avoid as much of it as possible.
