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She is literally attacking the Alliance after the demon invasion, when the King of Stormwind is the man who has tried for half a decade to make peace.

Well that is not true. Varian was against peace with the Horde and did not want to attend the peace summit with Thrall in Theramore.

Wrong Wrynn. Varian is stabbed and charred pile of fel goop.
Ashiraya is talking about Anduin, the current king, who has consistently been about peace.

Sylvanas has been fighting for her people and the Horde from the beginning. She is easily the most loyal of all of the leaders in the faction and the best as far as actually leading. When she is constantly attacked by the Alliance, accused of being an abomination by every one of them, it puts you in the position where your only allies are the Horde. The only ones who ever backed her up and saved her. So in the conflict between the Alliance vs Horde, something that has been going on this whole time and the King of Stormwind never tried to stop, she is making moves to win that conflict.

Uh... no. Sylvanus has always only been out for herself. She's never been loyal, let alone 'most loyal.' Most of the Horde has accused her of being an abomination as well- at best treating her as an ally of convenience. It might be worth reading War Crimes (novel) and Dark Mirror (short story on the website), for some insight into Sylvanus.

She really isn't capable of positive emotions- the closest she comes is imaging how close she could be to her remaining sister (since the other one was lost at the time) by killing her and raising her as forsaken.

I get liking Sylvanus, I really do. She's the only strong character the Horde has left. But she was and is a monster, and very committed to being monstrous.

The problem is that very few Forsaken see undeath as a terrible unlivable nightmare or an abomination

Actually, no. The problem is the game fails to convey that effectively. The fluff does a better job, but the game barely brushes against the background, and is often confusing when it does.
But the forsaken aren't just normal people who happen to be undead. They're monsters that feast on the living, create plagues to kill more of the living (which you can see in action and participate in the revamped zones from Cata, long after the Wrathgate betrayal that 'supposedly' Sylvanus didn't know about), and generally happy feasting on the living, being warmongers slaughtering their way through Southshore and a myriad of other places, doing bizarre experiments and doing the bidding of the banshee queen without question or remorse. While this is a sort of boring presentation of undead, it is what the game presents.

Voss wrote:

She is literally attacking the Alliance after the demon invasion, when the King of Stormwind is the man who has tried for half a decade to make peace.

Well that is not true. Varian was against peace with the Horde and did not want to attend the peace summit with Thrall in Theramore.

Wrong Wrynn. Varian is stabbed and charred pile of fel goop.
Ashiraya is talking about Anduin, the current king, who has consistently been about peace.

Sylvanas has been fighting for her people and the Horde from the beginning. She is easily the most loyal of all of the leaders in the faction and the best as far as actually leading. When she is constantly attacked by the Alliance, accused of being an abomination by every one of them, it puts you in the position where your only allies are the Horde. The only ones who ever backed her up and saved her. So in the conflict between the Alliance vs Horde, something that has been going on this whole time and the King of Stormwind never tried to stop, she is making moves to win that conflict.

Uh... no. Sylvanus has always only been out for herself. She's never been loyal, let alone 'most loyal.' Most of the Horde has accused her of being an abomination as well- at best treating her as an ally of convenience. It might be worth reading War Crimes (novel) and Dark Mirror (short story on the website), for some insight into Sylvanus.

She really isn't capable of positive emotions- the closest she comes is imaging how close she could be to her remaining sister (since the other one was lost at the time) by killing her and raising her as forsaken.

I get liking Sylvanus, I really do. She's the only strong character the Horde has left. But she was and is a monster, and very committed to being monstrous.

The problem is that very few Forsaken see undeath as a terrible unlivable nightmare or an abomination

Actually, no. The problem is the game fails to convey that effectively. The fluff does a better job, but the game barely brushes against the background, and is often confusing when it does.
But the forsaken aren't just normal people who happen to be undead. They're monsters that feast on the living, create plagues to kill more of the living (which you can see in action and participate in the revamped zones from Cata, long after the Wrathgate betrayal that 'supposedly' Sylvanus didn't know about), and generally happy feasting on the living, being warmongers slaughtering their way through Southshore and a myriad of other places, doing bizarre experiments and doing the bidding of the banshee queen without question or remorse. While this is a sort of boring presentation of undead, it is what the game presents.

Ah, Anduin. I will agree he is one of the few good leaders. But he has had very little influence in any negotiations in the past 5 years. In fact, he hasn't even been king for 5 years.

If Sylvanus had always been out for herself, she could have easily backstabbed the Horde at any point and taken over. They have been weakened before to the point that a takeover was possible. However, she stepped up and supported them. Much like how she stepped up and supported the Blood Elves when they were introduced. Which again, proved she is not out for just herself.

Actually, yes. The game IS the end all be all as far as the lore goes. What happens in the game is the canon of the game. Believe me, I understand your frustration with the fluff contradicting the game. I have been reading the novels for years. Lived through the retcons. Poor poor Day of the Dragon, it was a decent book. But if you are asking me to take all of the fluff as gospel, you have to as well. You cannot say she 'supposedly' did not know about it. You have accept she did not know about it. I mean, she was only involved in the siege of her own city to kill Varimathras and take control of her own kingdom again. The Forsaken enjoy their lives, otherwise they would end it. What they do not enjoy is the fact their loved ones despise them for some reason now, even though they do NOT have to "feast on the living" in order to live. As far as Southshore and Hillsbrad, that was a conflict between the two from when the Forsaken were just getting their feet. It has always been there. Ending the conflict was necessary for securing her borders, protecting herself as well as the Blood Elves from Alliance incursions. Acts of War in a game about War.

She is not the terrible monster people make her out to be. She is no angel at all. But she is not the devil incarnate.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
The problem is that very few Forsaken see undeath as a terrible unlivable nightmare or an abomination. If they did, there are easy ways out of it. They can just kill themselves again and in the process destroy their body to the point that nobody can resurrect it. Instead, many see this as a second chance at life.

Undeath as a second chance at life would be a more compelling argument if it wasn't so often the end of their first.

The primary problem with Alliance vs Horde is just that for every time they've found a common enemy and a reason to work together, they've failed to make players feel any resentment when hostilities resume. They keep doing it because the Horde occasionally needs some "For the Horde!" unity in the form of some mischief and false villainy, but it's been noble and heroic far too long for anyone to feel like they're the proper bad guys. Players need to actually want to fight with the other side for a change and not just be told that they're at war with Eurasia again.

Not all Forsaken that have been risen are like that. The original Forsaken in Vanilla were not, they were the dead left from the sacking of Lordaeron by Arthas and the Forsaken in the area who broke free of his will at the end of WC3.

I would say the mere fact that she hasn't engaged in some backstabbing is proof that she's only in it for herself- and her people. Let's face it, the Forsaken have always been 2nd class citizens of the horde. But they've got one thing going for them- they're essentially immortal.

That, combined with the host of foes the horde and alliance have managed to defeat, undoubtedly gives Sylvanas the long view. As long as she can keep the Horde from actively seeking to eradicate the Forsaken, she will win. Their leaders come and go with alarming regularity- and the longer the status quo remains the more land the Forsaken gain control of, and the more vile their experiments become. Once Thrall takes his hippy self off to become one with the Earth Mother, the last real threat to her dominance will be gone.

Ultimately, she will undoubtedly betray them- but probably once peace has been established for a generation or so, by switching sides, or serving as a neutral bridge to the Alliance. Expect the betrayal to be worldwide, poison based, and meticulously planned. Honestly I would be shocked if she wasn't working on resurrecting Deathwing right now. Picture simultaneous undead dragon attacks on the frontlines, and poisoning of every major food source at the same time.

This is some serious revisionism to try and paint Sylvanas and her actions as somehow good.

Gitzbitah wrote:I would say the mere fact that she hasn't engaged in some backstabbing is proof that she's only in it for herself- and her people. Let's face it, the Forsaken have always been 2nd class citizens of the horde. But they've got one thing going for them- they're essentially immortal.

That, combined with the host of foes the horde and alliance have managed to defeat, undoubtedly gives Sylvanas the long view. As long as she can keep the Horde from actively seeking to eradicate the Forsaken, she will win. Their leaders come and go with alarming regularity- and the longer the status quo remains the more land the Forsaken gain control of, and the more vile their experiments become. Once Thrall takes his hippy self off to become one with the Earth Mother, the last real threat to her dominance will be gone.

Ultimately, she will undoubtedly betray them- but probably once peace has been established for a generation or so, by switching sides, or serving as a neutral bridge to the Alliance. Expect the betrayal to be worldwide, poison based, and meticulously planned. Honestly I would be shocked if she wasn't working on resurrecting Deathwing right now. Picture simultaneous undead dragon attacks on the frontlines, and poisoning of every major food source at the same time.

Okay, then she is really making bad choices about flying under the radar. Being one of the main people the Horde relies on, as well as their best general, puts her right in the spotlight. Her troops are almost everywhere in the Horde at almost all levels. Taking the title of Warchief would be the dumbest thing she could possibly do if she was just playing the long game. Now you have an immortal leader of the Horde. Thrall is the only Horde leader that has vacated the position while living. The position has an abysmal survival rate. Not good for Sylvanas. She is in a tricky position now.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
This is some serious revisionism to try and paint Sylvanas and her actions as somehow good.

Then you aren't understanding the argument. I have stated that she is by no means an angel, but she is not the monster people seem to be making her out to be.

In the original classic she was creating the plague that would eventually be used by Varimathras in order to cause death to the alliance.

In the Sludge Fields (originally a human town in classic) she created an internment camp for humans where they work on sludge and mushrooms, many of which die and become ghouls.

She tried to enslave a demi-goddess to her will to force her to force her to create more undead for her.

Honestly, considering your arguments that Genn Greymane is worse then Sylvanas despite the fact that we have a laundry list of "Well she may have wanted to murder everyone, corrupt people, turn them against their families in undeath (Turns out that when she was using the Val'kyr to raise the undead they are feral when raised and unable to think and they used them to attack their former friends and allies! Great person), use a plague, enslave a demigod.. But he accidentally got screwed by a curse he was dealing with so... He's the Hitler in this situation, not her"


Is honestly, blatantly hard to take seriously to the point where you are desperately trying to paint her as something other then some mary sue character who has only survived to this point by the fact that someone on the team likes her enough that they don't want to turn her completely evil like they did with Fandral and Garrosh.

She also planned to kill her sister and her children and raise them as Forsaken as well, they only survived by the barest of luck and they never knew they avoided such a fate.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
In the original classic she was creating the plague that would eventually be used by Varimathras in order to cause death to the alliance.

In the Sludge Fields (originally a human town in classic) she created an internment camp for humans where they work on sludge and mushrooms, many of which die and become ghouls.

She tried to enslave a demi-goddess to her will to force her to force her to create more undead for her.

Honestly, considering your arguments that Genn Greymane is worse then Sylvanas despite the fact that we have a laundry list of "Well she may have wanted to murder everyone, corrupt people, turn them against their families in undeath (Turns out that when she was using the Val'kyr to raise the undead they are feral when raised and unable to think and they used them to attack their former friends and allies! Great person), use a plague, enslave a demigod.. But he accidentally got screwed by a curse he was dealing with so... He's the Hitler in this situation, not her"


Is honestly, blatantly hard to take seriously to the point where you are desperately trying to paint her as something other then some mary sue character who has only survived to this point by the fact that someone on the team likes her enough that they don't want to turn her completely evil like they did with Fandral and Garrosh.

She also planned to kill her sister and her children and raise them as Forsaken as well, they only survived by the barest of luck and they never knew they avoided such a fate.

Okay, no she wasn't creating the plague that was eventually used by Varimathras. That was made by the RaS by orders of Varimathras who went rogue.

The Sludge Fields was not Sylvanas. You were sent there on her authority to clean up the situation, which she did not know about. Again, another rogue agent.

You really need to learn the lore before you make these arguments. You also need to understand my argument before you throw around words like Mary Sue, which you clearly do not know the meaning of. By no means is she a Mary Sue.

So yeah. LOL

Actually, yes. The game IS the end all be all as far as the lore goes. What happens in the game is the canon of the game.

That just doesn't work. The game time skips (particularly at expansion launches) and simply does not cover much (or even most) of the background. Like it or not, most of the canon comes from Christie Golden (and assorted others).

Believe me, I understand your frustration with the fluff contradicting the game. I have been reading the novels for years. Lived through the retcons. Poor poor Day of the Dragon, it was a decent book. But if you are asking me to take all of the fluff as gospel, you have to as well.

Obviously not all of it, because retcons. Though I'm not talking about the fluff contradicting the game- I'm talking about the fluff being the only source of information for the many, many things the game doesn't cover. (like for example, how Garrosh got to alternate Draenor, and what Sylvanus was doing during that time- plotting multiple murders)

But the fluff clearly paints her as a monster. I'm not sure what contradiction to that you want me to accept.

You cannot say she 'supposedly' did not know about it. You have accept she did not know about it. I mean, she was only involved in the siege of her own city to kill Varimathras and take control of her own kingdom again.

I don't have to accept that, actually. That the dread lord she picked up betrayed her was clear, but that doesn't mean she wasn't involved in everything up to that point.

Either way, of course she has to be part of the siege- either because she wants it back, or to hide the fact that she was part of it AND wanting it back.

The Forsaken enjoy their lives, otherwise they would end it.

This is a borderline tautology, and not particularly meaningful. It isn't even particularly true, depending on the nature of undeath. What information we have about Sylvanus indicates she absolutely does not enjoy her unlife. She endures it, and takes satisfaction from her darker nature.

What they do not enjoy is the fact their loved ones despise them for some reason now, even though they do NOT have to "feast on the living" in order to live.

No, they do that because they enjoy it. Because they're monsters. Also 'for some reason' is pretty clear- the undead were a plague that were murdering everything, often wearing the faces of friends and family. That seems a quite reasonable reason to not like the undead.
Watching little Timmy tearing out Sally's throat isn't forgiven because they serve a different monster now.

As far as Southshore and Hillsbrad, that was a conflict between the two from when the Forsaken were just getting their feet. It has always been there.

And called off during the numerous working together events. The attack on Southshore was a surprise attack during the Hordes sudden reversion to warmongering post Cata.

Ending the conflict was necessary for securing her borders, protecting herself as well as the Blood Elves from Alliance incursions. Acts of War in a game about War.

Those borders could have been secured anywhere across any of several zones. Not that any of the borders anywhere are particularly secure- many of the Cata refits to zones have one factions outposts right next to their opposite's entrance to the zone, and then alternating their way across the map.

Despite the name, it isn't particularly a game about war. It's a game about forcing people to come together to beat up the big bads, and also feeling a bizarre need to give increasingly outrageous 'story' justifications to the PvP community that they won't even care about.

-----
In light of that, what's interesting about this expansion is they seem to have completely dropped PvP from the PvE zones. The Horde adventures exclusively over here and has these dungeons, and the Alliance adventures over there and has those dungeons. And all 'enemy' interactions are NPC mobs (through the 'warfronts'), or unrelated PVPs battlegrounds. But most of the new expansion will be beating up completely unrelated threats to Kul Turas and the Zandalari that has nothing to do with the 'faction war.'

Okay okay, so you are telling me World of Warcraft, a game about the conflict between the two main factions, is not a game about war?

Hold on, laughing too hard. I mean your other arguments like "They do enjoy it, because they're monsters" were pretty weak. But that one is pretty good. Yeah, it is becoming clear that you A)Haven't actually played through the Forsaken quests and read them and B) Have little understanding of the games lore and how the fluff outside of the game is just a supplement, often retconned to no longer be cannon

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Okay okay, so you are telling me World of Warcraft, a game about the conflict between the two main factions, is not a game about war?

No, it isn't. Wow is about playing a hero and doing quests like its a 9-5 job. Killing monsters and taking treasures.
It's about killing Illidan (oops)
Killing the Lich King
Exploring pandaland
Defeating Alternate Universe Orc bosses, who are just as bad as Demon Corrupted Original Universe Orc Bosses.
Bringing back the now-destined savior (complete with a new book by William King which contradicted the old game information) to banish the Burning Legion.

Hold on, laughing too hard. I mean your other arguments like "They do enjoy it, because they're monsters" were pretty weak. But that one is pretty good. Yeah, it is becoming clear that you A)Haven't actually played through the Forsaken quests and read them and B) Have little understanding of the games lore and how the fluff outside of the game is just a supplement, often retconned to no longer be cannon

A) How so? Any evidence, or are you just dismissing the argument because you can't refute it?

B) The game's lore is largely dictated by the books. While the old books have largely been tossed, the newer books are what is held up as 'true.' Whatever the source of the major conflict is in the new expansion, a huge part of it is in Sylvanus book and her plans for attacking Stormwind.
A lot of the retcons happened to game-only stuff- like the old Scythe of Elune quests, (which is now just a toy for blaster druids), that it was once the source of a pocket dimension of werewolves is now no longer true.

The game doesn't show why Varian goes from a racist warmonger to someone willing to take Garrosh prisoner and leave Ogrimmar intact after the Siege- the books do.
The game, particularly during Burning Crusade, didn't show Illidan getting coordinates for Argus and blowing up the dreadlord homeworld, the books do.
And on and on.

Without them, a lot of the game is incomprehensible nonsense, without rhyme or reason for much of what is going on.

I mean your other arguments like "They do enjoy it, because they're monsters" were pretty weak.

Somewhat, unless you actually interact with Forsaken NPCs and listen to them nattering on about killing the living, which even the shopkeepers do. Or is that not canon enough for you?

Dreadwinter, you've also still not addressed her whole "murder family members and raise them as undead" deal she's willing to do as well. I mean if that doesn't raise red flags of her being a villain I don't know what does. Unless you want to hide it behind "Oh she wants them to be immortal, just like her!".

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
In the original classic she was creating the plague that would eventually be used by Varimathras in order to cause death to the alliance.

In the Sludge Fields (originally a human town in classic) she created an internment camp for humans where they work on sludge and mushrooms, many of which die and become ghouls.

She tried to enslave a demi-goddess to her will to force her to force her to create more undead for her.

Honestly, considering your arguments that Genn Greymane is worse then Sylvanas despite the fact that we have a laundry list of "Well she may have wanted to murder everyone, corrupt people, turn them against their families in undeath (Turns out that when she was using the Val'kyr to raise the undead they are feral when raised and unable to think and they used them to attack their former friends and allies! Great person), use a plague, enslave a demigod.. But he accidentally got screwed by a curse he was dealing with so... He's the Hitler in this situation, not her"


Is honestly, blatantly hard to take seriously to the point where you are desperately trying to paint her as something other then some mary sue character who has only survived to this point by the fact that someone on the team likes her enough that they don't want to turn her completely evil like they did with Fandral and Garrosh.

She also planned to kill her sister and her children and raise them as Forsaken as well, they only survived by the barest of luck and they never knew they avoided such a fate.

Okay, no she wasn't creating the plague that was eventually used by Varimathras. That was made by the RaS by orders of Varimathras who went rogue.

The Sludge Fields was not Sylvanas. You were sent there on her authority to clean up the situation, which she did not know about. Again, another rogue agent.

You really need to learn the lore before you make these arguments. You also need to understand my argument before you throw around words like Mary Sue, which you clearly do not know the meaning of. By no means is she a Mary Sue.

So yeah. LOL

Okay, no she wasn't creating the plague that was eventually used by Varimathras. That was made by the RaS by orders of Varimathras who went rogue.

Lady Sylvanas has called upon the Royal Apothecary Society. The Dark Lady believes our knowledge coupled with the newfound magic will provide the key to Arthas's demise. She has challenged us to concoct a new plague, a plague deadlier than any ailment on Azeroth. This new disease will bring Arthas's Scourge Army to ruin.

According to the Deathguard, another one of those foolish Dwarven Mountaineers has just been captured. The Deathguard likes to use the cellar of the Gallows End Tavern as a holding cell until prisoners can be "properly" dealt with.

Why don't you go see how the Captured Mountaineer enjoys this special drink I made for him? It contains a subtle hint of what The Dark Lady has planned for the rest of Azeroth.

She planned to use it on the Scarlet Crusade and the Scourge.. The only rogue element of the Royal Apothecary society was Grand Apothecary Putress and those in his inner circle who joined up with Varimathras.

The Sludge Fields was not Sylvanas. You were sent there on her authority to clean up the situation, which she did not know about. Again, another rogue agent.

You were sent to clean up mostly because he was experimenting on Forsaken that turned them feral.. Which is a crime punishable by True Death by Sylvanas. Given that you can just beat the humans to death that were planted in the ground it seems nobody really gives a damn given they are still healthy.

You really need to learn the lore before you make these arguments

That's cute, but you avoid everything it seems and don't really have solid ground to stand on that she isn't monstrous, you avoided the tidbit about how she planned to poison her sister and force her under the banner of the Forsaken..

Also the taunting tone doesn't look good for you.

 Grimskul wrote:
Dreadwinter, you've also still not addressed her whole "murder family members and raise them as undead" deal she's willing to do as well. I mean if that doesn't raise red flags of her being a villain I don't know what does. Unless you want to hide it behind "Oh she wants them to be immortal, just like her!".

Again, by no means am I saying she is an angel. But she is not the monster she is being drug around as. As far as her sister goes, this falls back on the Horde vs Alliance thing. She wants to bring her sister back to the Horde. It is a smart move on her part. A little bad? Yeah. Is she killing her sister out of spite? No.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
In the original classic she was creating the plague that would eventually be used by Varimathras in order to cause death to the alliance.

In the Sludge Fields (originally a human town in classic) she created an internment camp for humans where they work on sludge and mushrooms, many of which die and become ghouls.

She tried to enslave a demi-goddess to her will to force her to force her to create more undead for her.

Honestly, considering your arguments that Genn Greymane is worse then Sylvanas despite the fact that we have a laundry list of "Well she may have wanted to murder everyone, corrupt people, turn them against their families in undeath (Turns out that when she was using the Val'kyr to raise the undead they are feral when raised and unable to think and they used them to attack their former friends and allies! Great person), use a plague, enslave a demigod.. But he accidentally got screwed by a curse he was dealing with so... He's the Hitler in this situation, not her"


Is honestly, blatantly hard to take seriously to the point where you are desperately trying to paint her as something other then some mary sue character who has only survived to this point by the fact that someone on the team likes her enough that they don't want to turn her completely evil like they did with Fandral and Garrosh.

She also planned to kill her sister and her children and raise them as Forsaken as well, they only survived by the barest of luck and they never knew they avoided such a fate.

Okay, no she wasn't creating the plague that was eventually used by Varimathras. That was made by the RaS by orders of Varimathras who went rogue.

The Sludge Fields was not Sylvanas. You were sent there on her authority to clean up the situation, which she did not know about. Again, another rogue agent.

You really need to learn the lore before you make these arguments. You also need to understand my argument before you throw around words like Mary Sue, which you clearly do not know the meaning of. By no means is she a Mary Sue.

So yeah. LOL

Okay, no she wasn't creating the plague that was eventually used by Varimathras. That was made by the RaS by orders of Varimathras who went rogue.

Lady Sylvanas has called upon the Royal Apothecary Society. The Dark Lady believes our knowledge coupled with the newfound magic will provide the key to Arthas's demise. She has challenged us to concoct a new plague, a plague deadlier than any ailment on Azeroth. This new disease will bring Arthas's Scourge Army to ruin.

According to the Deathguard, another one of those foolish Dwarven Mountaineers has just been captured. The Deathguard likes to use the cellar of the Gallows End Tavern as a holding cell until prisoners can be "properly" dealt with.

Why don't you go see how the Captured Mountaineer enjoys this special drink I made for him? It contains a subtle hint of what The Dark Lady has planned for the rest of Azeroth.

She planned to use it on the Scarlet Crusade and the Scourge.. The only rogue element of the Royal Apothecary society was Grand Apothecary Putress and those in his inner circle who joined up with Varimathras.

The Sludge Fields was not Sylvanas. You were sent there on her authority to clean up the situation, which she did not know about. Again, another rogue agent.

You were sent to clean up mostly because he was experimenting on Forsaken that turned them feral.. Which is a crime punishable by True Death by Sylvanas. Given that you can just beat the humans to death that were planted in the ground it seems nobody really gives a damn given they are still healthy.

You really need to learn the lore before you make these arguments

That's cute, but you avoid everything it seems and don't really have solid ground to stand on that she isn't monstrous, you avoided the tidbit about how she planned to poison her sister and force her under the banner of the Forsaken..

Also the taunting tone doesn't look good for you.

Okay, the Scarlet Crusade is an enemy of everybody on the planet and so is the Scourge. Not a big loss. Also, the only rogue element of the RAS is the leader of the RAS as well as the overseer and the inner circle? Yeah, the corruption there does not run deep..... lol

You were sent to clean it up because he went rogue and he was experimenting when she expressly forbid these experiments.

Listen, I am cute. But that is besides the point. I have addressed everything that has been mentioned.

Again, by no means am I saying she is an angel. But she is not the monster she is being drug around as. As far as her sister goes, this falls back on the Horde vs Alliance thing. She wants to bring her sister back to the Horde. It is a smart move on her part. A little bad? Yeah. Is she killing her sister out of spite? No.

Given her sister actually was actually planning with her to join to begin with, but backed out at the last minute because she didn't want to abandon her children which is what saved her life.. This expressly and completely nullifies your point as Vereesa was the one who started the whole reconciliation to begin with... Which means that she was planning to kill her all because she wanted to force her to rule the Forsaken alongside her forever... Seriously "a little bad?

Also Vereesa was never part of the horde to begin with. She was with the High Elves and unlike the Blood Elves never turned to siphoning magic from demons.

Okay, the Scarlet Crusade is an enemy of everybody on the planet and so is the Scourge. Not a big loss.

Seems you ignored the quote of "The Dark Lady has planned for the rest of Azeroth." from one of the people who serve her. Going to address that?

You were sent to clean it up because he went rogue and he was experimenting when she expressly forbid these experiments.

On Forsaken. He was trying to discover a method that didn't involve Val'kyr as he didn't trust them so he was experimenting on humans and Forsaken. The main reason you end up cleaning up the mess was because he captured a Sylvanas agent and was experimenting on him. Not because they gave any damn about the humans. Once again, you can expressly kill them without an issue.

Yeah, never said she was Horde. I understand the differences between High Elves and Blood Elves.

Low level grunt overstates the plans of his boss that his boss has never followed through on. Yeah, great source you got there! People say things. People are often wrong.

So he was experimenting in secret. An agent of Sylvanas is captured by him and experimented on. She sends you to check it out and clean up the mess. The fact that you can kill the humans is just a silly part of the game. Remember, at war with them. Makes sense.

It's funny how so many of Sylvanas's minions seem to be so clueless about how benevolent their boss is, isn't it?

/sarcasm off

I havent seen this many mental hoops jumped through since I saw a fan of Garrosh argue that Garrosh was a good guy. Though i suppose from a very specific, morally reprehensible point of view, both Garrosh and Sylvanas arent so abd after all.

Genn and Rogers were wrong to go after Sylvanas, until she immediately proved them right by consorting with Helya and then trying to enslave an ally against the Legion. She literally was willing to feth over the world and piss off Odyn to get immortality.

Saying that she didnt know the blight was being made is a laugh. Literally nothing the Forsaken did wasnt on the direct orders of Sylvanas - the Desolate Council forming in her abscence is a shock to both her and Nathanos, and especially that they are not toeing her line. The apothecarieshas the player test it on a Crusader and a Dwarf Mountaineer!

in the Nathanos short story, she literally captures Nathanos' cousin (an Argent Crusader) so that she can make her man look better. She murdered someone for vanity purposes. The Dark Ranger that escorts him even jests about it!

So okay, Genn was wrong to go after Sylvanus, but was proven right when she was forced to make a deal with Helya because of their meddling?

Odyn is an awful leader who doesn't deserve his position. He has basically sat back and watched the world burn because he threw a bossy fit over the Dragon Aspects being made. He could have prevented most, if not all of the problems on Azeroth had he not been a whiner.

"Nothing happens in the Forsaken without Sylvanus know, except this thing that happened without Sylvania knowing." That is just an awful argument.

Edit: I gotta stop posting from my phone, auto correct mangled this post beyond fixing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0A4MtGn7Tk&t=1594s
A video from Blizzcon showing off some of the Horde questing.
And the Atal'Dazar dungeon
And some alliance questing toward the end.

Ugh. Lots of dribble amongst showing things off- particularly about the stat squish. I wish people understood that the numbers don't matter- the actual aim is to govern time in combat and how many spells/major attacks it takes to drop an enemy.

If your spells peel of 33% of the average enemy health bar, it doesn't matter if they do 300 damage or 43 million damage, the value is entirely cosmetic.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
"Nothing happens in the Forsaken without Sylvanus know, except this thing that happened without Sylvania knowing." That is just an awful argument.

The question is - is that argument more awful than "None of Sylvanas' underlings realize how benevolent she is"?

Did you just say it was wrong for Genn.. Whose son was killed by Sylvanas (Who complained that it was meant for him right before him), whose kingdom was conquered, his people scattered, and would have been murdered out right if it wasn't for the Alliance? When he has never proved to be a threat to the Forsaken before?

Yeah, there's pretty definitive answers for who you root for that's for sure.

Gotta say, it was nice to see Sylvanas actually 'banshee' for once rather than simply be a different colored elf. And naturally the entire cinematic was amazing, up to Blizzard's usual standards - makes me wish THEY'D done the WC movie.

As for the story, eh, who cares. The dev's have finally run out of off the wall ideas to justify an expansion (I'm staring at you Warlords), so they've gone back to the conflict that started the franchise - H v A. Only it's not humans, elves, and dwarves fighting against Orcs, Goblins, and Ogres...it's Purple Elves fighting Red Elves and Humans fighting Undead humans, and cows and pandas...wait, what?

Also, the whole 'Sylvanas has done nothing wrong!' argument is hilarious. Like, I'm genuinely cackling.

Purple Elves fighting Red Elves

No, no. You're completely oversimplifying.

Originally Purple elves and Blonde elves weren't fighting at all.
Then some of the Blonde elves became Red Elves (but there were still Blonde elves in the Alliance, you just couldn't play them, because reasons) after the Demon Elves Split off and their Emo boss got carved up, and the Red Elves joined up with the Greens, Cows, Deadites and the Blues (which elves evolved from)

Meanwhile knock-off Red Elves degenerated from Purple Elf refugees had a city and made a pact with demons, and this was just discovered (despite being on the same island where the Purple elf druids had been training for thousands of years)
Oh, and the Demon Elves came back, and join both Team Red and Team Blue.

And then everyone discovered that some Army or other that had disappeared between RTS games was still alive in space, and all those Elves were somehow Red Elves, but they started sucking power from Space rather than well-water that was only uncovered in moonlight or well-water that was only uncovered in sunlight, so these are now Bluish Elves. (To be fair, they were in space, so they didn't have any well-water of any kind)

And with the new expansion the formerly Purple Red Elf knock offs are joining up with Red Elves and the Red Team* , and the formerly Red Bluish Elves are joining up with the Purple Elves and Team Blue.

And you still can't play Blonde Elves that aren't Red or Bluish, because reasons.

*and Team Red includes the Blue things that Elves evolved from, who are also getting the oldest tribe that they all evolved from who are distinguishable by their male's ability to... stand up straight. For whatever reason, females of all the hunched races can all stand completely erect.

 Frankenberry wrote:

Also, the whole 'Sylvanas has done nothing wrong!' argument is hilarious. Like, I'm genuinely cackling.

But I never said that. In fact, I believe I said the opposite multiple times. Blaming her for everything bad that happens is just silly.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:

Also, the whole 'Sylvanas has done nothing wrong!' argument is hilarious. Like, I'm genuinely cackling.

But I never said that. In fact, I believe I said the opposite multiple times. Blaming her for everything bad that happens is just silly.

Justifying her actions lends credence to the whole 'she's just doing what she needs to do' argument - alleviating her of any guilt regarding the atrocities she's been apart of. Color it any way you want, you're arguing that it's OK for her to be a murdering tyrant simply because in order to get gak done you have to be a backstabbing, heartless, evil bitch.

I wonder, are you the same person that made the video 'Garrosh did nothing wrong'?

 Frankenberry wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:

Also, the whole 'Sylvanas has done nothing wrong!' argument is hilarious. Like, I'm genuinely cackling.

But I never said that. In fact, I believe I said the opposite multiple times. Blaming her for everything bad that happens is just silly.

Justifying her actions lends credence to the whole 'she's just doing what she needs to do' argument - alleviating her of any guilt regarding the atrocities she's been apart of. Color it any way you want, you're arguing that it's OK for her to be a murdering tyrant simply because in order to get gak done you have to be a backstabbing, heartless, evil bitch.

I wonder, are you the same person that made the video 'Garrosh did nothing wrong'?

That is a big stretch no matter how you look at it. I am saying in the context of the fantasy world she lives in, she is not even close to the worst monster there is. People are comparing her to the lich king here. Do you not find that ridiculous?

No?
First, that comparison is explicitly drawn -in game-.

Second, and more importantly, she's a ruthless tyrant with an army of undead behind her, with a strong, demonstrated desire to make more undead. She's more than demonstrated a whiling mess to do anything at all for power or survival, including the use of plagues (one of your first tasks out of the 1-6 starting area is help with ingredients for plague testing, something that continues through the entire starter zone, she plague bombs the hell out of Gilneas in the end) and dark bargains. (Variamthas, The Lich King's Valkyr, Helya)

While she currently has less power and less direct control of other undead, the comparison between her and the Lich King is far from ridiculous.

Read the Edge of Night short story, where she gets a look at what is in store for her after her existence is over. It changes her attitude about the forsaken, as tools to be expended (to kill Arthas) to a bulwark... to protect herself.

The next chapter of her story involves planning another attack on humans, and getting personally involved in burning down Telsrassil. And what looks like personally killing a named elf NPC, possibly one of her sisters.


As for being the 'worst' monster. That'd be hard to decide, frankly. But easily part of the top 10.
Honestly that is one of the reasons to play forsaken, to be part of the monsters, not the tree hugging or creepy 'erotic RP' parts of the Horde

Sooo..... after basically working together against "world ending threats" for umpteen expansions, now its all out war between the two sides again? Seriously, let WoW die, and bring WC4 already