Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

There is no issue. It's a quirky fun ability for some and a cool, fluffy trait for Grey Knights. People who complain about it should be smited.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"If you don't have cheap fodder smite beats you" is the same thing as saying "if you don't have enough anti-tank, tanks beat you" or "if you have no melee defense, melee beats you."

It's part of the game, deal with it. And before you say "every faction has access to anti-tank or melee defense but not cheap infantry" - well, Inquisition has no melee defense or anti-tank. Astra Telepathica has none of the above. Grey Knights have no real anti-tank either.

Certain factions have certain weaknesses (deliberately so) and these weaknesses are engineered into their design. Not having access to that sort of thing is fine.

"Inquisition" and "Astra Telepathica": Really? Do you need to go to those fringe examples to support your "git gud" attempt?

Grey Knights have anti-tank in the form of meele and psychic powers. Or, well. Thats how it should work, they just suck but thats a different matter. Tau don't have meele defense, but they have ways to work around it. Thats the problem, not having ways to work around something. The Rock-Paper-Scissors balance is toxic when we are talking about a game where you have 0 capabiliteis of changing your army composition and it becomes a russian roulette.

If 8th edition has shown me something, is how fast Warhammer40k players embrace the "git gud" (For others, of course) mentality once their faction becomes OP, even if one edition before they where at the bottom of the barrel.

It's funny how Guard players are so quick to go "it's easy to counter, just run chaff/deniers/snipers". As if their faction wasn't top 3 at all of those.

But anyway, now that CA is (over)nerfing Malefic Lords, I have to agree that Smite as a concept isn't the problem, per se, just the undercosted casters. 60pts should be a good baseline for a full Smite, and now the witch is dead, that only leaves Primaris Psykers and Spiritseers. The latter usually have better things to do with their time, which is a testament to how good Runes of Battle are. The former have the same chronically-undercosted syndrome of 8th ed IG, though that pales before the Astropaths. Sure, support powers aren't as flashy as Smite, but come on, 15pts?

Now, if it were up to me, I'd go with a couple of the suggestions in this thread. Namely, remake Psychic Focus so that successive casts of a power in the same phase suffer a stacking penalty, with consequent increased chance of Perils (and perhaps a limitation that a failed power can't be attempted again). Smite included in this, with the exception of mini Smites like Rites of Banishment and Destructor.

This is partly because an angle of the Smite mechanics I don't see discussed much is that not only are cheap weak psykers too strong, but strong expensive psykers are too weak (offensively). When the Archdaemon of Tzeentch can do about the same psychic damage as a run of the mill Primaris Psyker, something's awry (mind you, ARK is absolutely broken, but not due to his casting). Ahriman, Zoanthropes, Crowe, basically anyone fluffed as being a psychic artillery powerhouse (except for Magnus) is relatively weak under the current rules -- largely because Smite is not only universally available and easy to cast, but also easily the most reliable offensive psychic power. I've been crunching thr numbers (will post if y'all wanna see it) and the majority of offensive psychic powers are at best sidegrades to Smite in terms of expected wounds, and nigh-universally situational.

So, at least, the changes outlined above might help curb spammed cheap psykers while giving people who want to field expensive psychic powerhouses a chance outside of buff bots. We need some better offensive powers too (I have hopes for the Daemons and Tsons codices), but aside from that, not penalizing any sort of psychic offense other than massed cheap Smite is a good starting point.

It also leaves Inquisitors at 55 points - those are less than 60. They desperately need a nerf after all. You can tell by how many are being spammed.

Why, I can't go a game without seeing an inquisitor on the table!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It also leaves Inquisitors at 55 points - those are less than 60. They desperately need a nerf after all. You can tell by how many are being spammed.

Why, I can't go a game without seeing an inquisitor on the table!

Don't be so fast... maybe they'll be nerfed by CA

 Galas wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"If you don't have cheap fodder smite beats you" is the same thing as saying "if you don't have enough anti-tank, tanks beat you" or "if you have no melee defense, melee beats you."

It's part of the game, deal with it. And before you say "every faction has access to anti-tank or melee defense but not cheap infantry" - well, Inquisition has no melee defense or anti-tank. Astra Telepathica has none of the above. Grey Knights have no real anti-tank either.

Certain factions have certain weaknesses (deliberately so) and these weaknesses are engineered into their design. Not having access to that sort of thing is fine.

"Inquisition" and "Astra Telepathica": Really? Do you need to go to those fringe examples to support your "git gud" attempt?

Grey Knights have anti-tank in the form of meele and psychic powers. Or, well. Thats how it should work, they just suck but thats a different matter. Tau don't have meele defense, but they have ways to work around it. Thats the problem, not having ways to work around something. The Rock-Paper-Scissors balance is toxic when we are talking about a game where you have 0 capabiliteis of changing your army composition and it becomes a russian roulette.

If 8th edition has shown me something, is how fast Warhammer40k players embrace the "git gud" (For others, of course) mentality once their faction becomes OP, even if one edition before they where at the bottom of the barrel.

"Melee" and "psychic powers" aren't really antitank. My Baneblades do not fear GK melee or psychic powers as much as a quadlas predator, fyi.

Is it just me or are the cheap astropaths even worse for smite spam than the primaris/inquisitors? Primaris: for 40 points, you get an average of 1.66 wounds per turn, plus a small chance of being sucked into the warp.

For only five points more, you get three astropaths. If my math is right, that's an average of 2.0 wounds to smite, no perils, a waaaaay bigger potential upside to wounds, and you can spread them around.

Throw six with Primaris into a Vanguard, and you've got a mighty smitey detachment for only 130 points.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"If you don't have cheap fodder smite beats you" is the same thing as saying "if you don't have enough anti-tank, tanks beat you" or "if you have no melee defense, melee beats you."

It's part of the game, deal with it. And before you say "every faction has access to anti-tank or melee defense but not cheap infantry" - well, Inquisition has no melee defense or anti-tank. Astra Telepathica has none of the above. Grey Knights have no real anti-tank either.

Certain factions have certain weaknesses (deliberately so) and these weaknesses are engineered into their design. Not having access to that sort of thing is fine.

"Inquisition" and "Astra Telepathica": Really? Do you need to go to those fringe examples to support your "git gud" attempt?

Grey Knights have anti-tank in the form of meele and psychic powers. Or, well. Thats how it should work, they just suck but thats a different matter. Tau don't have meele defense, but they have ways to work around it. Thats the problem, not having ways to work around something. The Rock-Paper-Scissors balance is toxic when we are talking about a game where you have 0 capabiliteis of changing your army composition and it becomes a russian roulette.

If 8th edition has shown me something, is how fast Warhammer40k players embrace the "git gud" (For others, of course) mentality once their faction becomes OP, even if one edition before they where at the bottom of the barrel.

"Melee" and "psychic powers" aren't really antitank. My Baneblades do not fear GK melee or psychic powers as much as a quadlas predator, fyi.

Meele is no antitank in 8th. Powerfist and Chainfist were pretty damm good at popping vehicles before. Yeah, the best anti-tank is in shooting, and to kill a superheavy you need the biggest weapons out there that aren't normally found in meele.

4100xpb wrote:
Is it just me or are the cheap astropaths even worse for smite spam than the primaris/inquisitors? Primaris: for 40 points, you get an average of 1.66 wounds per turn, plus a small chance of being sucked into the warp.

For only five points more, you get three astropaths. If my math is right, that's an average of 2.0 wounds to smite, no perils, a waaaaay bigger potential upside to wounds, and you can spread them around.

Throw six with Primaris into a Vanguard, and you've got a mighty smitey detachment for only 130 points.

You're right, it is mathematically optimal. I suppose people would just rather not gamble on that 5+ or face uselessness, or perhaps they are dissuaded by their lackluster statline. Considering they're unbelievably useless for anything else, I'd say they may well not be worth it. Considering when you factor in the chance for d6 wounds you're looking at 2 wounds for 45 points on the Astropaths versus 1.79 wounds for 40 points on the Primaris. And then there's HQ vs Elite slots to consider.

Psychic abilities should have cost points to select. Including smite. Then you could balance the point cost of the spells, rather than trying to balance the point cost of the unit around what spells I might feel like having.

NintiethTime wrote:
It's funny how Guard players are so quick to go "it's easy to counter, just run chaff/deniers/snipers". As if their faction wasn't top 3 at all of those.

It's more a response to the "woe is me I can't do anything about Smite" and the response is "here's some counterplay to the exact list you're talking about and why it's not so straightforward to just roll face with", or when people are playing specialist niche armies (or things that aren't even really armies, like Custodes) that lacks many capabilities the game is built around and they need to acknowledge that certain army builds are going to have glaring weaknesses.

I'm all for some changes to Smite. I'm all for Smite being consecutively harder to cast with each attempt for example. I'm all for some of the more expensive Psykers having better offensively oriented abilities and more capable abilities in general. I'm all for rolled powers being better formulated to provide more utility than just spamming Smite. I'm all for GK getting some help and adjustment because their codex was really poorly handled. It's just when people say that when people talk about there being no counterplay, it gets ridiculous (particularly when it's built into the power).

What would be an even more funny component would be this:

All spells, including smite, have a points cost. But, if you don't pay any points at all, you can still roll on the chart.

i.e. a roll (or two rolls or whatever) on a given power chart is free, but chosen spells have a given points cost.

Furthermore, Smite has a points cost and can never be rolled for randomly, so if you want your psyker to know smite, they have to pay for it.

So apparently GW have just said in interview that they will be moving to a 6 monthly balance/FAQ update based around the tournament season, March after Adepticon and September after NOVA.

Smite will be addressed in a balance update in March.

momerathe wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Smite is balanced because it slays 2 conscripts like it slays 1 Terminator.

That's exactly the problem...Other side spends tons of points for defence he doesn't get to use. Resulting in meta shifting toward cheap horde from elites WHO ALREADY are soft for their points. It's not like there's unit that is too tough for it's point by having great stats. Basically the tougher your stats the EASIER you are generally to remove for your points. Conscripts, cultists etc THAT'S the actually tough ones for their points.

Gee, it's almost as if there are counters to certain units!

Are you suggesting Terminators need to actually be countered by cheap Smite availability?

No,he is saying that terminators should be countered by choices that cost 100+ points each and are usually no more than three in an army.

Returning Tyranid player here because squats are still MIA.
I see several answers to smite in our list.
We have
A) A lot of available denies
Tyrants, Neurothrope, Zoanthrope, Broodlord, Allied Patriarch and Magus (with bonus Mind control for the shadowsword behind the smiters)
B) gaunts
C) Biovores that can miss when targeting a unit near the Psyker
Your poor Psyker has to smite a spore mine again, sorry about that.
D) Psychic Scream
(separate smite that can cause psykers to forget a power
E) Kronos Warlord trait
Fail the psychic test and take D3 mortal wounds
F) Kronor stratagem deepest shadow
Make your test on 1 die ugly combo with "E"

Just my 2 cents

 Jidmah wrote:
No,he is saying that terminators should be countered by choices that cost 100+ points each and are usually no more than three in an army.

I hope you aren't referring to smite spam psykers with "cost 100+ points" and "no more than three in an army" because these two things could not possibly be further from the truth.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
No,he is saying that terminators should be countered by choices that cost 100+ points each and are usually no more than three in an army.

I hope you aren't referring to smite spam psykers with "cost 100+ points" and "no more than three in an army" because these two things could not possibly be further from the truth.

No I'm referring to all the 20+ psykers that are not spammable unlike the four or five that are. As is he.

I think the problem with Smite is that against an army that has a lot of it, the experience can be tedious and frustrating.

As someone with a Thousand Sons army I can appreciate that. However us and GK are not really the problem - the problem is easily accessible full power smite.

Personally I'd have smite be exactly like the GK version for everyone, except that you have the option for a once per turn boosted version that works as current smite.

That would probably be the best solution. Just have Smite be a bespoken rule on every psyker - that way they can tune every single smite according to the model it is used with.