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2018/12/17 02:52:13
Subject: Reivers: most pointless unit in the game?
Bremon wrote: They should have put Reivers on bikes. Their dumb skull masks look right at home in motocross.
I’d buy a box or two of reiver scout bikers.
Totally fits their fluff role of fast moving terror disruption troops. And would look cool
They would certainly look better than current scout bikers. I’d like GW to make some more traditional roles for Primaris. Ideally they don’t get “mini repulsor” anti grav bikes lol.
All the Biker kits are due to be redone I wager. At least if you get the FW ones those guys look like their bikes are super armored and stuff.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/12/17 09:39:27
Subject: Reivers: most pointless unit in the game?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. Seeing as they're mathematically bad for the job you want them to do, that's just you being in plain denial.
They work for me, and are still not "the most pointless unit in the game".
2. Then you don't expect harassing units to do anything. At that point, Reivers are just a 90-100 point kill point.
Once again, you can only get away with "literally murder" IF YOU ARE CAPABLE OF PUTTING OUT DAMAGE.
They physically can put out damage. Not as much as you want, but they do put out damage.
You say you're glad they're not considered a threat (because they aren't) and then make this claim they're a threat and kill HQ units. You gotta pick one or the other.
Okay, allow me to clarify. They don't represent such an immediate threat as Inceptors do. Inceptors hit harder, but by doing so, make themselves a bigger target. Reivers do less damage, but because they do, they are often underestimated. Therefore, by underestimating them, they become a threat to isolated units and weak HQs.
3. So you'd rather rely on superstition.
If relying on superstition works better for me, then yes, I do.
4. In a way, yes. Allowing people to have their delusions because "it's my beliefs and you need to accept that" creates this issue where all beliefs are valid.
That's literally the opposite of progress.
If you can't separate different values in wargaming from rejecting all available scientific knowledge, with a far different set of implications beyond simple preference about which plastic toy you prefer, I'm afraid I'm going to have to leave it there.
1. They are pointless, as other units do the job better. If something is doing the unit's job better, the unit is now pointless.
Not a terribly difficult concept to grasp I wouldn't think. For example, Assault Marines are pointless because of Vanguard doing their job significantly better. Until Assault Marines are made to actually do a defined role, they're pointless. The same goes for Reivers, a unit that really shouldn't have people defending them.
2. Storm Guardians also physically put out damage. Please make a thread defending THAT unit entry, please.
They can barely threaten a Astra Commander. If they ALL had knives, they don't even inflict 5 wounds to kill said Commander. Even if they had line of sight to shoot said Commander, they get only close to 3 wounds. Now imagine those scenarios with proper screening and the Commander doesn't get touched until later in the game. That means your 180-200 points is doing even less in the game until you can actually place them on the field. Compare that to Inceptors or Vanguard, which both have Fly and have enough movement to help guarantee a successful charge.
3. So you admit, by merely being superstitious, you're likely to not have actual clarity on the situation on hand, and merely letting bias clouding your judgment in this unit assessment.
4. Seeing as you're superstitious and would rather rely on THAT than the hard facts of math behind Overwatch, me thinks this concept actually applies.
They aren’t pointless. They are aesetically and narratively very useful depending upon your tastes. But they have a definite point. I personally can’t wait until the old marines are binned completely.
2018/12/17 15:08:13
Subject: Reivers: most pointless unit in the game?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. Seeing as they're mathematically bad for the job you want them to do, that's just you being in plain denial.
They work for me, and are still not "the most pointless unit in the game".
2. Then you don't expect harassing units to do anything. At that point, Reivers are just a 90-100 point kill point.
Once again, you can only get away with "literally murder" IF YOU ARE CAPABLE OF PUTTING OUT DAMAGE.
They physically can put out damage. Not as much as you want, but they do put out damage.
You say you're glad they're not considered a threat (because they aren't) and then make this claim they're a threat and kill HQ units. You gotta pick one or the other.
Okay, allow me to clarify. They don't represent such an immediate threat as Inceptors do. Inceptors hit harder, but by doing so, make themselves a bigger target. Reivers do less damage, but because they do, they are often underestimated. Therefore, by underestimating them, they become a threat to isolated units and weak HQs.
3. So you'd rather rely on superstition.
If relying on superstition works better for me, then yes, I do.
4. In a way, yes. Allowing people to have their delusions because "it's my beliefs and you need to accept that" creates this issue where all beliefs are valid.
That's literally the opposite of progress.
If you can't separate different values in wargaming from rejecting all available scientific knowledge, with a far different set of implications beyond simple preference about which plastic toy you prefer, I'm afraid I'm going to have to leave it there.
1. They are pointless, as other units do the job better. If something is doing the unit's job better, the unit is now pointless.
Not a terribly difficult concept to grasp I wouldn't think. For example, Assault Marines are pointless because of Vanguard doing their job significantly better. Until Assault Marines are made to actually do a defined role, they're pointless. The same goes for Reivers, a unit that really shouldn't have people defending them.
2. Storm Guardians also physically put out damage. Please make a thread defending THAT unit entry, please.
They can barely threaten a Astra Commander. If they ALL had knives, they don't even inflict 5 wounds to kill said Commander. Even if they had line of sight to shoot said Commander, they get only close to 3 wounds. Now imagine those scenarios with proper screening and the Commander doesn't get touched until later in the game. That means your 180-200 points is doing even less in the game until you can actually place them on the field. Compare that to Inceptors or Vanguard, which both have Fly and have enough movement to help guarantee a successful charge.
3. So you admit, by merely being superstitious, you're likely to not have actual clarity on the situation on hand, and merely letting bias clouding your judgment in this unit assessment.
4. Seeing as you're superstitious and would rather rely on THAT than the hard facts of math behind Overwatch, me thinks this concept actually applies.
They aren’t pointless. They are aesetically and narratively very useful depending upon your tastes. But they have a definite point. I personally can’t wait until the old marines are binned completely.
Like I said, you can use their bitz for converting your Intercessors or Hellblasters. Their role is better covered by several other units though, which makes them pointless.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/12/18 17:20:10
Subject: Reivers: most pointless unit in the game?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. Seeing as they're mathematically bad for the job you want them to do, that's just you being in plain denial.
They work for me, and are still not "the most pointless unit in the game".
2. Then you don't expect harassing units to do anything. At that point, Reivers are just a 90-100 point kill point.
Once again, you can only get away with "literally murder" IF YOU ARE CAPABLE OF PUTTING OUT DAMAGE.
They physically can put out damage. Not as much as you want, but they do put out damage.
You say you're glad they're not considered a threat (because they aren't) and then make this claim they're a threat and kill HQ units. You gotta pick one or the other.
Okay, allow me to clarify. They don't represent such an immediate threat as Inceptors do. Inceptors hit harder, but by doing so, make themselves a bigger target. Reivers do less damage, but because they do, they are often underestimated. Therefore, by underestimating them, they become a threat to isolated units and weak HQs.
3. So you'd rather rely on superstition.
If relying on superstition works better for me, then yes, I do.
4. In a way, yes. Allowing people to have their delusions because "it's my beliefs and you need to accept that" creates this issue where all beliefs are valid.
That's literally the opposite of progress.
If you can't separate different values in wargaming from rejecting all available scientific knowledge, with a far different set of implications beyond simple preference about which plastic toy you prefer, I'm afraid I'm going to have to leave it there.
1. They are pointless, as other units do the job better. If something is doing the unit's job better, the unit is now pointless.
Not a terribly difficult concept to grasp I wouldn't think. For example, Assault Marines are pointless because of Vanguard doing their job significantly better. Until Assault Marines are made to actually do a defined role, they're pointless. The same goes for Reivers, a unit that really shouldn't have people defending them.
2. Storm Guardians also physically put out damage. Please make a thread defending THAT unit entry, please.
They can barely threaten a Astra Commander. If they ALL had knives, they don't even inflict 5 wounds to kill said Commander. Even if they had line of sight to shoot said Commander, they get only close to 3 wounds. Now imagine those scenarios with proper screening and the Commander doesn't get touched until later in the game. That means your 180-200 points is doing even less in the game until you can actually place them on the field. Compare that to Inceptors or Vanguard, which both have Fly and have enough movement to help guarantee a successful charge.
3. So you admit, by merely being superstitious, you're likely to not have actual clarity on the situation on hand, and merely letting bias clouding your judgment in this unit assessment.
4. Seeing as you're superstitious and would rather rely on THAT than the hard facts of math behind Overwatch, me thinks this concept actually applies.
They aren’t pointless. They are aesetically and narratively very useful depending upon your tastes. But they have a definite point. I personally can’t wait until the old marines are binned completely.
Like I said, you can use their bitz for converting your Intercessors or Hellblasters. Their role is better covered by several other units though, which makes them pointless.
No. That just makes them pointless to you and the way you like to play. To me an intercessor with a skull helmet isn’t a special forces style space marine grappling into combat with two handled carbine. A reiver is and is the only thing that is and that’s the point of them to me and the way I enjoy the game. Of you are only bothered by power efficiency then that’s fine. Me like a bit of story and style to the games I play. And when I use Reivers they do things and do them pretty well. Not amazingly game shatteringly well but well enough. ThTs the point. To some more narrative style players they fill a narrative role. It’s not for u, I get that but it s for me and others out there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/18 17:24:22
2018/12/18 17:39:10
Subject: Reivers: most pointless unit in the game?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. Seeing as they're mathematically bad for the job you want them to do, that's just you being in plain denial.
They work for me, and are still not "the most pointless unit in the game".
2. Then you don't expect harassing units to do anything. At that point, Reivers are just a 90-100 point kill point.
Once again, you can only get away with "literally murder" IF YOU ARE CAPABLE OF PUTTING OUT DAMAGE.
They physically can put out damage. Not as much as you want, but they do put out damage.
You say you're glad they're not considered a threat (because they aren't) and then make this claim they're a threat and kill HQ units. You gotta pick one or the other.
Okay, allow me to clarify. They don't represent such an immediate threat as Inceptors do. Inceptors hit harder, but by doing so, make themselves a bigger target. Reivers do less damage, but because they do, they are often underestimated. Therefore, by underestimating them, they become a threat to isolated units and weak HQs.
3. So you'd rather rely on superstition.
If relying on superstition works better for me, then yes, I do.
4. In a way, yes. Allowing people to have their delusions because "it's my beliefs and you need to accept that" creates this issue where all beliefs are valid.
That's literally the opposite of progress.
If you can't separate different values in wargaming from rejecting all available scientific knowledge, with a far different set of implications beyond simple preference about which plastic toy you prefer, I'm afraid I'm going to have to leave it there.
1. They are pointless, as other units do the job better. If something is doing the unit's job better, the unit is now pointless.
Not a terribly difficult concept to grasp I wouldn't think. For example, Assault Marines are pointless because of Vanguard doing their job significantly better. Until Assault Marines are made to actually do a defined role, they're pointless. The same goes for Reivers, a unit that really shouldn't have people defending them.
2. Storm Guardians also physically put out damage. Please make a thread defending THAT unit entry, please.
They can barely threaten a Astra Commander. If they ALL had knives, they don't even inflict 5 wounds to kill said Commander. Even if they had line of sight to shoot said Commander, they get only close to 3 wounds. Now imagine those scenarios with proper screening and the Commander doesn't get touched until later in the game. That means your 180-200 points is doing even less in the game until you can actually place them on the field. Compare that to Inceptors or Vanguard, which both have Fly and have enough movement to help guarantee a successful charge.
3. So you admit, by merely being superstitious, you're likely to not have actual clarity on the situation on hand, and merely letting bias clouding your judgment in this unit assessment.
4. Seeing as you're superstitious and would rather rely on THAT than the hard facts of math behind Overwatch, me thinks this concept actually applies.
They aren’t pointless. They are aesetically and narratively very useful depending upon your tastes. But they have a definite point. I personally can’t wait until the old marines are binned completely.
Like I said, you can use their bitz for converting your Intercessors or Hellblasters. Their role is better covered by several other units though, which makes them pointless.
No. That just makes them pointless to you and the way you like to play. To me an intercessor with a skull helmet isn’t a special forces style space marine grappling into combat with two handled carbine. A reiver is and is the only thing that is and that’s the point of them to me and the way I enjoy the game. Of you are only bothered by power efficiency then that’s fine. Me like a bit of story and style to the games I play. And when I use Reivers they do things and do them pretty well. Not amazingly game shatteringly well but well enough. ThTs the point. To some more narrative style players they fill a narrative role. It’s not for u, I get that but it s for me and others out there.
Other units will work fine for your "narrative" needs. You simply have a bizarre need to stick to the unit model + profile put together when you need to look at them separately.
I mean, you think I bought a box of PA Grey Knights because I plan to use Grey Knights at this point?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/12/18 17:48:51
Subject: Reivers: most pointless unit in the game?
Carbine Reivers could indeed be used as Intercessors. However, the Reivers are the only Primaris unit which can equip pistol and CCW, so if that's the sort of Primaris Marine you want you need to use them as Reivers. And no, there will not be any single wound marines in my army.
Crimson wrote: Carbine Reivers could indeed be used as Intercessors. However, the Reivers are the only Primaris unit which can equip pistol and CCW, so if that's the sort of Primaris Marine you want you need to use them as Reivers. And no, there will not be any single wound marines in my army.
It isn't my problem you're so stuck on everything needing to have two wounds. You've got literally an entire codex to choose from where units WILL do the role of Reivers but better. You saying they fill a role only happens if you decide to say "I don't want this unit because of no good reason".
That's not a way to defend a unit. It's a desperate way to try and gain something out of it.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/12/18 18:05:37
Subject: Reivers: most pointless unit in the game?
Crimson wrote: Carbine Reivers could indeed be used as Intercessors. However, the Reivers are the only Primaris unit which can equip pistol and CCW, so if that's the sort of Primaris Marine you want you need to use them as Reivers. And no, there will not be any single wound marines in my army.
It isn't my problem you're so stuck on everything needing to have two wounds. You've got literally an entire codex to choose from where units WILL do the role of Reivers but better. You saying they fill a role only happens if you decide to say "I don't want this unit because of no good reason".
That's not a way to defend a unit. It's a desperate way to try and gain something out of it.
You said in another thread that you have a Necron army. I hope you're not trying to use them with Necron rules, as everyone knows they're trash. If you don't run them as counts as Eldar, you're bad and should feel bad.
Crimson wrote: Carbine Reivers could indeed be used as Intercessors. However, the Reivers are the only Primaris unit which can equip pistol and CCW, so if that's the sort of Primaris Marine you want you need to use them as Reivers. And no, there will not be any single wound marines in my army.
It isn't my problem you're so stuck on everything needing to have two wounds. You've got literally an entire codex to choose from where units WILL do the role of Reivers but better. You saying they fill a role only happens if you decide to say "I don't want this unit because of no good reason".
That's not a way to defend a unit. It's a desperate way to try and gain something out of it.
You said in another thread that you have a Necron army. I hope you're not trying to use them with Necron rules, as everyone knows they're trash. If you don't run them as counts as Eldar, you're bad and should feel bad.
I have actually proxied my Necrons before in 6th/7th to see how Dark Eldar and Ynari function as a whole. Special weapons were harder to represent (Immortals kinda did the work there). The play styles were interesting at least.
That said, using a PA Marine for another is hardly the same thing as going for another army. Your hyperbole was super fantastic though, so I do commend you.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also it's HAD a Necron army. I've only 1000 or so built up again from the 9000 I lost.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/18 18:18:46
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/12/18 18:24:22
Subject: Reivers: most pointless unit in the game?
That said, using a PA Marine for another is hardly the same thing as going for another army.
Different people have different tolerance to WYSIWYG violations.
Your hyperbole was super fantastic though, so I do commend you.
I'm glad you appreciated it.
The only tolerance here is being so strict you can't even convert models. Hell, most Marines don't have their pistols and grenades represented but they're still part of the profile.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/12/18 18:40:23
Subject: Reivers: most pointless unit in the game?
The only tolerance here is being so strict you can't even convert models. Hell, most Marines don't have their pistols and grenades represented but they're still part of the profile.
Of course you can convert. I just don't want to use primaris bodies to represent normal marines (except maybe characters, who have more than two wounds and attacks anyway.) It would be like using Ork nob models to represent boys. And trust me, all my marines have their pistols and grenades! Why wouldn't they? It's really not my problem if you build your models sloppily, but don't expect other people to lower themselves to your standards.
The only tolerance here is being so strict you can't even convert models. Hell, most Marines don't have their pistols and grenades represented but they're still part of the profile.
Of course you can convert. I just don't want to use primaris bodies to represent normal marines (except maybe characters, who have more than two wounds and attacks anyway.) It would be like using Ork nob models to represent boys. And trust me, all my marines have their pistols and grenades! Why wouldn't they? It's really not my problem if you build your models sloppily, but don't expect other people to lower themselves to your standards.
You can use the Skull helmets and weapons still. The main thing out of proportion is the body sizes, otherwise with a little knifework you're fine.
I therefore don't buy the excuse.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/12/18 18:48:50
Subject: Reivers: most pointless unit in the game?
I'm not the biggest fan of the current Marines outside the older armor Mks so I don't see your point.
What's there not to get? I don't want to use primaris marines as minimarines, nor I want to use minimarine models. Ergo, I will not use minimarine units. The end.
I'm not the biggest fan of the current Marines outside the older armor Mks so I don't see your point.
What's there not to get? I don't want to use primaris marines as minimarines, nor I want to use minimarine models. Ergo, I will not use minimarine units. The end.
Well if you were really the creative type you'd make it work. I found a way to get Intercessors into my army without using the Intercessor models. You can probably find a way to use the Reiver models and bitz the same way.
Talk about laziness.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/12/18 19:19:16
Subject: Reivers: most pointless unit in the game?
Well if you were really the creative type you'd make it work. I found a way to get Intercessors into my army without using the Intercessor models. You can probably find a way to use the Reiver models and bitz the same way.
But I don't care that much. Sure, I actually wish Reivers were better, but in the grand scheme of things it is not such a big deal. Space marines as a whole are pretty questionable competively, so if I really cared that much, I should just ditch them all for Eldar or IG.
Talk about laziness.
LOL. You don't obviously know me. Nearly every model in my army is converted. The goal just is to make them look as cool as possible, and not to squeeze some negligible advantage in the game.
Well if you were really the creative type you'd make it work. I found a way to get Intercessors into my army without using the Intercessor models. You can probably find a way to use the Reiver models and bitz the same way.
But I don't care that much. Sure, I actually wish Reivers were better, but in the grand scheme of things it is not such a big deal. Space marines as a whole are pretty questionable competively, so if I really cared that much, I should just ditch them all for Eldar or IG.
Talk about laziness.
LOL. You don't obviously know me. Nearly every model in my army is converted. The goal just is to make them look as cool as possible, and not to squeeze some negligible advantage in the game.
So why go this far to defend the unit if you admit that aren't good?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/12/18 19:57:57
Subject: Reivers: most pointless unit in the game?
So why go this far to defend the unit if you admit that aren't good?
If you have read the thread you know that I said early on that the unit isn't very good. This current line of discussion started when Andykp said that for them the Reivers were worth aesthetically and thematically (which I agree with,) and you couldn't accept that as an answer.
Aesthetically Reivers look great their legs are a bit jarring and they need more movement, but otherwise rules wise they are lackluster to what they should be able to do. I see them as the striking scorpions of space marines.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2018/12/18 23:51:51
Subject: Reivers: most pointless unit in the game?
Well if you were really the creative type you'd make it work. I found a way to get Intercessors into my army without using the Intercessor models. You can probably find a way to use the Reiver models and bitz the same way.
But I don't care that much. Sure, I actually wish Reivers were better, but in the grand scheme of things it is not such a big deal. Space marines as a whole are pretty questionable competively, so if I really cared that much, I should just ditch them all for Eldar or IG.
Talk about laziness.
LOL. You don't obviously know me. Nearly every model in my army is converted. The goal just is to make them look as cool as possible, and not to squeeze some negligible advantage in the game.
So why go this far to defend the unit if you admit that aren't good?
U really are missing the point. By a mile. So badly so I’m sure you are just doing it on purpose. I don’t view the game the way you do. I’m not saying you are wrong but your are refusing to accept that I many others are valid in our view of the game. I don’t rate any unit on its mathematical prowess. I don’t use points, I set myself restrictions in my army composition to drive a narrative. That gives a given unit a “point”.
I convert many models, but not so I can use cool new models as the most powerful units. But to again to drive a narrative. All my armies contain conversions, but sometimes I go as far as to convert them to have less than optimal war gear, because it looks good or fits their character. There is more to this hobby than winning games. I’ve said my piece there isn’t much oountbrepeating it again again.
2018/12/20 15:33:53
Subject: Reivers: most pointless unit in the game?
