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I'd really like to see the "he just left it there unguarded so it's his fault"

defense used in court.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's really going out of the way to defending the person that left their wallet unattended. It's already known as naive to just trust leaving such valuables unattended, ergo most of the fault lies on the person leaving it there.

Or, you know, the person who finds the wallet can also turn it in to the lost-and-found, or use the contact information to mail it to the owner.

That's us telling GW to fix their rules. Good catch!

I just opened the last page, and I can only assume that I arrived in the midst of a tortured analogy gone too far?

Imperial Fists sound like yet another problem. I say GW nerf the Doctrines themselves. Maybe limit each to once per game or to force them to cycle through them?

I don't see gw doing that. I'd say it's more a case of waiting for everyone else's op rules then watching the power creep and bloat build.

Allow marines to activate one doctrine per turn, once per game, in any order (so whit Scars don't have to wait until Turn 3). So you will have 3 turns of doctrines, but can use them in any order you wish.

 Crimson wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Has this thread actually devolved into victim blaming people for having their goods stolen?

Its not MY FAULT they left their wallet on the table! SOMEONE else could've STOLEN it, so I TOOK it because I NEED the MONEY.

Yes. It makes me really question the ethics of some posters.

You're questioning it? christ Crimson I've long since detirmined that some of the folks here must eaither posess zero ethics. or simply find it amusing to pretend they don't on the internet where they can't suffer any concequences for it.

I don`t see any more reason to panic after IH release, ofcourse +1 flat damage to most armies best units is super good, but for that point it`s clear SM need tuning down regardless of the chapter.

Marin wrote:
I don`t see any more reason to panic after IH release, ofcourse +1 flat damage to most armies best units is super good, but for that point it`s clear SM need tuning down regardless of the chapter.

Yes and no.

It's not as overall good as Iron Hands IMO, but it does invalidate a lot of army concepts. Tank Commanders, Venom Spam, Disco Lords, Knights probably, Mech Tau (with Riptides already basically gone), etc..

It's just another sucker punch.

Also, I think a lot of Marine stuff is OP or on the verge of OP, and might slip through, simply because IH are the most egregious offender. So Iron Stone and Feirros might get a nerf-bat, but all the crazy UM/Ravenguard/WhiteScars/IF/etc.. stuff slips through and we'll end up with a 90%-of-players-play-Marines-Meta anyhow.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Marin wrote:
I don`t see any more reason to panic after IH release, ofcourse +1 flat damage to most armies best units is super good, but for that point it`s clear SM need tuning down regardless of the chapter.

Yes and no.

It's not as overall good as Iron Hands IMO, but it does invalidate a lot of army concepts. Tank Commanders, Venom Spam, Disco Lords, Knights probably, Mech Tau (with Riptides already basically gone), etc..

It's just another sucker punch.

Also, I think a lot of Marine stuff is OP or on the verge of OP, and might slip through, simply because IH are the most egregious offender. So Iron Stone and Feirros might get a nerf-bat, but all the crazy UM/Ravenguard/WhiteScars/IF/etc.. stuff slips through and we'll end up with a 90%-of-players-play-Marines-Meta anyhow.

True, that is the reason there should be wide SM nerfs and not only IH.

Lwt the meta settle before we start demanding massive nerds.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Lwt the meta settle before we start demanding massive nerds.

Quite the opposite. Act quickly for once. We've had to slog through months and months of obviously (not nearly as) OP stuff like the Castellan, etc..

It shouldn't take months to fix these things and people, as with the Castellan, "adapting" by putting all their mid-range vehicles in some storage box is exactly what you want to avoid.

Act as quickly as humanly possible so stuff doesn't get invalidated and all lists remain playable without "adapting". If people need to adapt, you failed at balancing the game.

They fethed it up with things like the Castellan before. The idea is to learn from mistakes, not to repeat them ad infinitum.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Lwt the meta settle before we start demanding massive nerds.

Hah hah massive "nerds". Thanks for the laugh man, so early here at work and i am all alone, that was nice

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Lwt the meta settle before we start demanding massive nerds.

Quite the opposite. Act quickly for once. We've had to slog through months and months of obviously (not nearly as) OP stuff like the Castellan, etc..

It shouldn't take months to fix these things and people, as with the Castellan, "adapting" by putting all their mid-range vehicles in some storage box is exactly what you want to avoid.

Act as quickly as humanly possible so stuff doesn't get invalidated and all lists remain playable without "adapting". If people need to adapt, you failed at balancing the game.

They fethed it up with things like the Castellan before. The idea is to learn from mistakes, not to repeat them ad infinitum.

Knee jerk reactions to the loudest voices only ruin the game. Letting it shake out a bit and see what's causing problems is the best place to start.

And they did nerf the Castellan. Multiple times. The fact they're fine tuning the nerfs is a good thing, not a bad one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

addnid wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Lwt the meta settle before we start demanding massive nerds.

Hah hah massive "nerds". Thanks for the laugh man, so early here at work and i am all alone, that was nice

Apparently autocorrect is bad at spelling and hates the word "nerf".

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Marin wrote:
I don`t see any more reason to panic after IH release, ofcourse +1 flat damage to most armies best units is super good, but for that point it`s clear SM need tuning down regardless of the chapter.

Yes and no.

It's not as overall good as Iron Hands IMO, but it does invalidate a lot of army concepts. Tank Commanders, Venom Spam, Disco Lords, Knights probably, Mech Tau (with Riptides already basically gone), etc..

It's just another sucker punch.

Also, I think a lot of Marine stuff is OP or on the verge of OP, and might slip through, simply because IH are the most egregious offender. So Iron Stone and Feirros might get a nerf-bat, but all the crazy UM/Ravenguard/WhiteScars/IF/etc.. stuff slips through and we'll end up with a 90%-of-players-play-Marines-Meta anyhow.

the problem with Imperial fists is a structral issue with the game, naeml;y that mutliple attack weapons useally seen as anti-heavy infantry tradtionallyu, are often better then heavy anti-tank guns

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Lwt the meta settle before we start demanding massive nerds.

A lack of nerds has always been a problem at GW, a good nerd would be able to estimate how many pts each unit should be worth, another nerd would be able to roughly balance relics and other free rules, another two or three nerds would be able to find unclear rules writing, six to twelve nerds (GW could re-use the same nerds) would be able to playtest every option in every release three times before release and make sure very little slips past. I say GW needs more nerds!

Oddly, I think Heavy Plasma Incinterators with an overcharge might be the best squad level weapon for tank busting. S9, -5AP, Dmg3 versus tanks means they bust tanks better than lascannons do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vict0988 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Lwt the meta settle before we start demanding massive nerds.

A lack of nerds has always been a problem at GW, a good nerd would be able to estimate how many pts each unit should be worth, another nerd would be able to roughly balance relics and other free rules, another two or three nerds would be able to find flaws in the writing, six to twelve nerds would be able to playtest every option in every release three times before release and make sure very little slips past. I say GW needs more nerds!

They can't afford that many pocket protectors.

Yeah, when I see those podcast interviews in the youtube I definitely think "those are some cool guys".

Just because they aren't cool doesn't mean they are nerds, they could just be dorks. I up vote this we need more massive nerds in GW games development now.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Knee jerk reactions to the loudest voices only ruin the game. Letting it shake out a bit and see what's causing problems is the best place to start.

And they did nerf the Castellan. Multiple times. The fact they're fine tuning the nerfs is a good thing, not a bad one.

.

Defaming sensible re-balancing as "nerf" or "knee jerk" does not make a coherent argument.

We have the data. Even without the data, we have basic math. There's no doubt that this needs adjustment.

And even if it were "knee jerk reactions". Actually, "knee jerk reactions" haven't thus far ruined the game. What ruined 7th was rampant OP stuff draining the diversity from the game, thus historically speaking, 1000s overreacting "knee jerk reactions" would still be preferable to another overtly slow re-balancing as with the Castellan. If this were a knee jerk reaction, which it is not.

Hell, if you actually look at other games, say Magic the Gathering or so, that do have a healthy and growing competitive community of the type 40K only dreams off, they are far, far more offensively with this and certainly "don't let the meta shake out". If they have a card that is causing issues and being taken by too many people, because it's obviously good, they just ban it for competitions in five seconds flat. Mistakes do happen after all. Rather kill off that one "sorry, messed up there" thing (even at the risk at perhaps banning a few too many things that might not have needed a nerf/ban) than hurt the game overall.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Knee jerk reactions to the loudest voices only ruin the game. Letting it shake out a bit and see what's causing problems is the best place to start.

And they did nerf the Castellan. Multiple times. The fact they're fine tuning the nerfs is a good thing, not a bad one.

.

Defaming sensible re-balancing as "nerf" or "knee jerk" does not make a coherent argument.

We have the data. Even without the data, we have basic math. There's no doubt that this needs adjustment.

And even if it were "knee jerk reactions". Actually, "knee jerk reactions" haven't thus far ruined the game. What ruined 7th was rampant OP stuff draining the diversity from the game, thus historically speaking, 1000s overreacting "knee jerk reactions" would still be preferable to another overtly slow re-balancing as with the Castellan. If this were a knee jerk reaction, which it is not.

Hell, if you actually look at other games, say Magic the Gathering or so, that do have a healthy and growing competitive community of the type 40K only dreams off, they are far, far more offensively with this and certainly "don't let the meta shake out". If they have a card that is causing issues and being taken by too many people, because it's obviously good, they just ban it for competitions in five seconds flat. Mistakes do happen after all. Rather kill off that one "sorry, messed up there" thing (even at the risk at perhaps banning a few too many things that might not have needed a nerf/ban) than hurt the game overall.

I'm not a competitive MTG player but what are Siege Rhinos? Slow and steady is the way forward, what led 7th astray was the lack of any kind of balancing, not a set of gradual balancing updates that didn't correct the game enough. Nerf Invisibility one warp charge per 6 months and over the course of 7th it would have actually been fair.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Oddly, I think Heavy Plasma Incinterators with an overcharge might be the best squad level weapon for tank busting. S9, -5AP, Dmg3 versus tanks means they bust tanks better than lascannons do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vict0988 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Lwt the meta settle before we start demanding massive nerds.

A lack of nerds has always been a problem at GW, a good nerd would be able to estimate how many pts each unit should be worth, another nerd would be able to roughly balance relics and other free rules, another two or three nerds would be able to find flaws in the writing, six to twelve nerds would be able to playtest every option in every release three times before release and make sure very little slips past. I say GW needs more nerds!

They can't afford that many pocket protectors.

I lost fire prism with -2 to hit from 5 hellblasters, 2 died cuz of the overcharge and shooed in death.
Non invul vehicles are losing their place of the game, since SM just destroy them to easy.

And I am not unhappy about your exemple because -2 to hit should not exist in the first place.

But i get your point however truth is that was the case since codex 8 th.

Marin wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Marin wrote:
I don`t see any more reason to panic after IH release, ofcourse +1 flat damage to most armies best units is super good, but for that point it`s clear SM need tuning down regardless of the chapter.

Yes and no.

It's not as overall good as Iron Hands IMO, but it does invalidate a lot of army concepts. Tank Commanders, Venom Spam, Disco Lords, Knights probably, Mech Tau (with Riptides already basically gone), etc..

It's just another sucker punch.

Also, I think a lot of Marine stuff is OP or on the verge of OP, and might slip through, simply because IH are the most egregious offender. So Iron Stone and Feirros might get a nerf-bat, but all the crazy UM/Ravenguard/WhiteScars/IF/etc.. stuff slips through and we'll end up with a 90%-of-players-play-Marines-Meta anyhow.

True, that is the reason there should be wide SM nerfs and not only IH.

Except Iron hands are the chapter/supliment over achieving in win ratio, other non IH marines aren't realy that unbalanced when you dig into the win ratios

Nerding the whole codex will just see it turn into cod3x ironhands supliment being the only viable way to play the faction.

GW sucks at balance even more than most. The internal supliment to supliment balance isn't even close why you think every marine list needs to be punished for IronHands Supliment I don't know.

Marines were always going to cause a ripple effect on the meta as when was the last time someone actually did well woth marines outside of really wierd finge lists like tripple repulsor codex 1.0 bobby G abuse lists?

The meta simple isn't used to fighting Armour saves.

Also if you think pre marine codex was a good meta you've obviously never seen the misery that eldar flying circuses inflict.

And they did nerf the Castellan. Multiple times. The fact they're fine tuning the nerfs is a good thing, not a bad one.

okey, but GW "nerfs" are bad. I mean look at Inari, they nerf, and nothing happened they were still top, nerfed again and again, and yet again, and they were still at the top. So the nerfs may as well have not happened, if they were winning more then others. The castellans come and hard counter Inari, and a few months later GW makes a new Inari codex, which is just kills the army as a playable faction.
Also how many years does GW need to fix an army. The GK were considered too good in which edition 4th or 5th, right? So they have been fixing them for 3-4 editions. one could expect that after so many years, they would know how to do it. Specially as in the mean time, they were able to produce good armies, to every other faction.
Slow nerfs, are only good when they either don't effect you, because your army is good. Because with slow changes you get to play the same good army longer. Or if the changes are done to other armies, because again you get to play with your good stuff no problem. Slow changes when you play an army that is bad, are horrible to expiriance.

Marin is an eldar player.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Hell, if you actually look at other games, say Magic the Gathering or so, that do have a healthy and growing competitive community of the type 40K only dreams off, they are far, far more offensively with this and certainly "don't let the meta shake out". If they have a card that is causing issues and being taken by too many people, because it's obviously good, they just ban it for competitions in five seconds flat. Mistakes do happen after all. Rather kill off that one "sorry, messed up there" thing (even at the risk at perhaps banning a few too many things that might not have needed a nerf/ban) than hurt the game overall.

There's a big difference between banning a card and banning a model someone spent hours of their time assembling and painting.

 Orodhen wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Hell, if you actually look at other games, say Magic the Gathering or so, that do have a healthy and growing competitive community of the type 40K only dreams off, they are far, far more offensively with this and certainly "don't let the meta shake out". If they have a card that is causing issues and being taken by too many people, because it's obviously good, they just ban it for competitions in five seconds flat. Mistakes do happen after all. Rather kill off that one "sorry, messed up there" thing (even at the risk at perhaps banning a few too many things that might not have needed a nerf/ban) than hurt the game overall.

There's a big difference between banning a card and banning a model someone spent hours of their time assembling and painting.

Not if its a 200 dollar card and banning it halves the value.

 vict0988 wrote:

Not if its a 200 dollar card and banning it halves the value.

yeah, a friend of my bought a playset of field of the dead, and it looks that with masters tournament decks, having the cards in 42% of all decks, and the 2 month sooner emergancy card errata hastened, he just spent a lot of money for cards that are going to lose a lot of worth very soon.

MiG has card rotation. Can't apply this to Warhammer. Imagine you have to shelf all the models you buy every single year, and can only use them in special formats if your local area supports them.

Banning models is not a good idea. Making them useless due to powercreep is also not a good idea tho. I really do not enjoy bringing out my Rubric marines for 18 pts a piece when the intercessor can shoot 36" , ap-3, 3 damage for 17 pts and have an extra wound on top of that. And CA will come, but the thing is, we can't really drop Rubrics down to 13 ppm to justify them because that's how much the basic marine costs. We also can't make the intercessor 20+ pts because they won't get played any more.

So what do we do? There are armies out there that really can't play the game any more. Tyranids for instance. Can't even do the genestealer trick any more, not when the IH overwatches on 4+ rerollable, and they don't have any other tricks to begin with. What are tyranids gonna do? Wait for another year just to receive mediocre stuff again? Because I seriously doubt that armies like Tyranids or Thousand Sons will receive super doctrines and overlapping blanket rules.

Seriously, that 36", ap-3, 3 damage basic troop tho....

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's really going out of the way to defending the person that left their wallet unattended. It's already known as naive to just trust leaving such valuables unattended, ergo most of the fault lies on the person leaving it there.

Or, you know, the person who finds the wallet can also turn it in to the lost-and-found, or use the contact information to mail it to the owner.

That's us telling GW to fix their rules. Good catch!

Saying "GW, fix your crap" is more akin to telling Bob not to forget his wallet. It's an attempt at a preemptive action that, at best, has a marginal improvement on the frequency of the connundrum. Returning the wallet to Bob (or someone who can get it to Bob) is more akin to just not being a douche.

Also, how is saying "Bob is at fault for being inatttentive, AND you're at fault for stealing the wallet" "going out of the way to defending the person"? It's actively accusing the person (of inattentiveness).

It's like you think that, if there's another party at fault in any way, you're blameless. That's not how morality works. If you steal, you stole. Whether you're pickpocketing an oblivious tourist or breaking into Fort Knox.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Suzuteo wrote:
I just opened the last page, and I can only assume that I arrived in the midst of a tortured analogy gone too far?

It was a redirect of being accused of battered-wife-syndrome (explicitly). I tried to redirect it to a less inflamatory "Stole a wallet insufficiently protected" because spousal abuse and psychological torture should be entirely offlimits here.

The conversation continued because some posters apparently believe stealing is entirely justified - and in fact the right thing to do - if you can get away with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
MiG has card rotation. Can't apply this to Warhammer. Imagine you have to shelf all the models you buy every single year, and can only use them in special formats if your local area supports them.

It kind-of *is* "Card Rotation". They are "rotating out" old models, while not "rotating out" old models that were "repritnted" (still in production, even if it's a different kit).

Banning models is not a good idea.

Emphatically agree.

Making them useless due to powercreep is also not a good idea tho.

I could accept "legacy" units/rules that don't fit into the modern rulesset or balance schema getting rules that point them out of meta consideration. As a lesser evil. It gives them a tool to allow really special or crazy rules to exist, while not allowing them to negatively impact the meta.

Doing it as SOP, though, is a terrible idea. It should only be used when needed for extreme cases.

I really do not enjoy bringing out my Rubric marines for 18 pts a piece when the intercessor can shoot 36" , ap-3, 3 damage for 17 pts and have an extra wound on top of that. And CA will come, but the thing is, we can't really drop Rubrics down to 13 ppm to justify them because that's how much the basic marine costs. We also can't make the intercessor 20+ pts because they won't get played any more.

I just assumed that was GW flubbing balance once again.

So what do we do? There are armies out there that really can't play the game any more. Tyranids for instance. Can't even do the genestealer trick any more, not when the IH overwatches on 4+ rerollable, and they don't have any other tricks to begin with. What are tyranids gonna do? Wait for another year just to receive mediocre stuff again? Because I seriously doubt that armies like Tyranids or Thousand Sons will receive super doctrines and overlapping blanket rules.

Seriously, that 36", ap-3, 3 damage basic troop tho....

Lament that the glory days of 8th have come to an end. I'd argue 8th was the best period of balance this game has seen since at least 6th. But the new SM codex strongly suggests they've changed direction at GW.