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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:
 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Crazy thought...perhaps GW make up rules to push the new hotness?

Wacky I know...having shareholders and all.


No, never, ever! How dare you accuse GW of such behaviour





Automatically Appended Next Post:
CapRichard wrote:
They should increase relics and stratagem twofold at least.
Make everything superbloated.


Why not Multiply it by x.
X is the numer a headless chicken runs on like in southpark bank.

That's sometimes the case, but remember that Mutilators came out around the same time, and that was a REALLY bad unit upon release.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 nintura wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Sagittarii Orientalis wrote:
Drop Pods suffer more from making enemy units to charge it and render themselves immune to space marine shooting.
This problem becomes worse if the enemy unit charging the pod can fly.
Spend a turn hugging the pod, become immune to shooting and then fall back and shoot.
Compared to this, points cost does not seem to cause serious issue.


That's a risk, yes. Although the new Space Marine books help make that less viable by making Marine counterassault more dangerous. If the opponent hides by charging the Pod, they cant overwatch anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 nintura wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 nintura wrote:
So everyone has to play jorm? Wow i love the options...


No. But you can. Otherwise you have two options compared to the Space Marine one.


Wait, what? One option?


Drop Pod is one option, vs. Tyrannofex and Trygon.
Terminators. Inceptors. Jump-pack Ordinary Marines.


Terminators do not bring other units with them. Just like Gargoyles , Flyrants and Spores aren't transports either.


Lets take a look at rules here. My basic termagants vs tactical marines.

Numbers: 10 terms vs 4+1 marines. Nids win
Guns: assault 1 s:4 vs pistol 1 s: 4. Advantage: marines
Rules:
hail of living ammunition
Hyper aggression

Vs

Combat squad
Atsknf
Bolter discipline
Shock assault
Fnp 6+
Overwatch 5-6+
(Double wounds if vehicle with damage table)

So not only are you better with assault than almost every basic troop out there, you shoot better as well.


A: You know that Tyranid Warriors are Troops? 3w 3A great weapons and CC ability?

B: Where did the goalposts go?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Crazy thought...perhaps GW make up rules to push the new hotness?

Wacky I know...having shareholders and all.


No, never, ever! How dare you accuse GW of such behaviour





Automatically Appended Next Post:
CapRichard wrote:
They should increase relics and stratagem twofold at least.
Make everything superbloated.


Why not Multiply it by x.
X is the numer a headless chicken runs on like in southpark bank.

That's sometimes the case, but remember that Mutilators came out around the same time, and that was a REALLY bad unit upon release.


Tbf if you look at them do you honestly think they would've sold more if the rules were good?
No gw knew they were a lost cause imo.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka





Tbf if you look at them do you honestly think they would've sold more if the rules were good?

Something can look like poo, but if it has powerful rules people are going to buy a playset. More like they didn't have plastic models or any ideas what to do with csm. In fact from what they are doing with csm and the csm model line, it seems like they are tryin to push csm away from actual csm, and it to some sort demons, demonic machines etc stuff.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





 catbarf wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:


Wouldn't it be better if everyone just got 1 Warlord Trait and 3 Stratagems that were all useful instead of making us sift through 6 relics, 6 Warlord Traits, and 20+ Stratagems to find the 1 Warlord Trait and 3 Stratagems that are actually useful? I know my expectations are wildly unrealistic from GW's writing team but the ease with which everyone rolls over and says "yeah, we know they're s***, but if they write enough s*** maybe something playable will slip through the cracks" amazes me sometimes.


And then people complain how bland and uninspired that is.

You'd probably kill Warhammer as an IP doing that.


I remember Warmachine defined each of its warcasters with once-per-game ability and 3-5 spells, and that made for huge differences between them. Even warcasters from the same faction had a totally different feel from one another, because the spells and feats dictated how the warcaster interacted with their army.

There's no reason why Warhammer couldn't be fun with just a couple of flavorful, competently-written traits and stratagems per army, rather than the avalanche of crap that we have now.

'Bland and uninspired' is repeating the same few stratagems and traits for each army. Hands up, who's got a 'get CP back on a 5+' warlord trait or a 'everyone can throw grenades' stratagem, and what fluffy, faction-specific flavor are those supposed to represent?

Better to incorporate those into a limited, curated set of universal warlord traits and stratagems, then give each faction their own unique warlord trait and handful of appropriate stratagems, and then an extra stratagem for each subfaction. Each faction and subfaction can keep their flavor without the scattershot implementation of stratagems as they currently stand.


It's funny you use Warmachine as an example considering the game crumpled under its own weight as it became bloated with units as maintaining balance while creating new units to keep the game profitable became harder and harder until it had to undergo a massive changes to both its release and play style, changes which nearly killed the game and forced it to change AGAIN.

Did you know they're launching Warmachine 40k with custom casters, out of curiosity?


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Sim-Life wrote:
It's funny you use Warmachine as an example considering the game crumpled under its own weight as it became bloated with units as maintaining balance while creating new units to keep the game profitable became harder and harder until it had to undergo a massive changes to both its release and play style, changes which nearly killed the game and forced it to change AGAIN.

Did you know they're launching Warmachine 40k with custom casters, out of curiosity?


Perhaps the lesson should be that expecting a game to grow indefinitely while still maintaining balance and interesting thematic roles for every unit is a losing proposition. I would think that the current sprawl of stratagems makes the long-term problem worse, not better.

I have seen the barest of hints about the new Warmachine, and I'm not particularly excited. I stopped playing around 2008 or so and haven't followed what happened since then.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Ordana wrote:
The Newman wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I think it's worth noting that despite Iron Hands getting all the attention, now that the enrf has been applied, all of the chapters are solid armies, whatever our views otherwise, codex space marines and it's supplements has a solid internal balance that should be (and IMHO from many of these posts is) envied each of the chapters has some solid reasons to pick it over the others, and a white scars player is going to be, more or less, quite happy with what he has. this is a nice change from most 8th edition codices where it's obvious one subfaction is the only one worth a damn


I think it's also worth noting that while Marines got stronger they didn't get a whole lot tougher so their natural predators didn't change much. Run into a lG armored column and you're still going to have a bad time, you still can't build a Marine army that can tank 10 Russes/Russ Demolishers or that can consistently kill five Russes on turn one before they gut your army.

And yes, I have six pages of strategems to choose from but that's still being applied to an army that has a hard time putting two Battalions into 2000 points and wants to spend half it's CP on extra relics/warlord traits/deployment shenanigans before the game starts. If the strats are good but I can't use more than five or six of them in a game then those two things balance out. Which is how it's supposed to be.

Marines getting deadlier wasn't a step in the right direction, but quite frankly 4 out of 5 games around here are ending with a start-of-turn-two-scoop already so the problem can't get all that much worse. The rate GW is going the entire rule set for 10th or 11th ed is going to read "player 1 and player 2 take turns deploying models. Both players then roll a die, the player with the higher result wins the game." At least there won't be any arguments over which army is the best at that point.
If your games are ending in 1 turn you need to bring more terrain.
Not to say your wrong in that the game is too lethal but if its that much your doing something wrong.

We're already putting 15+ pieces of terrain on the table at 1000-points, unfortunately a lot of what we have is GW terrain and quick "cerial box ruins" so it's full of holes and doesn't block LoS. Some of us (myself included) have started adding taller and wider LoS blocking terrain to the collection en masse, so unrecoverable turn-1 damage should get less prevalent. We shall see.

I predict all that will really happen is that long-range artillery will become a lot more common and IG will still end up dominating the local meta.

   
 
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