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Ice_can wrote:

Atleast those models are functional without said upgrade strategums, which isn't subfaction specific.
Crisis suits, greater demons and I'm sure their are other examples are just flat out units that don't work without those Strategums.
Worst part is they aren't even changing the models it's just statsline or additional rules.

There are a lot of units that don't work without stratagem, melee terminators for WE for exemple.
Possessed, heck arguably even obliterators, havocs aswell and that is just CSM top off my head.

Don't forget warp talons. Ever see them in an army that wasn't either Night Lords or Emperors Children and actually be viable?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Don't forget warp talons. Ever see them in an army that wasn't either Night Lords or Emperors Children and actually be viable?

Warptalons honestly are the least concerning one when allready the core CSM doesn't work without recycling and doubleshooting...
Also PM don't work for DG but for AL for reasons unknown.


Honestly the whole subfaction system is a mess.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Don't forget warp talons. Ever see them in an army that wasn't either Night Lords or Emperors Children and actually be viable?

Warptalons honestly are the least concerning one when allready the core CSM doesn't work without recycling and doubleshooting...
Also PM don't work for DG but for AL for reasons unknown.


Honestly the whole subfaction system is a mess.

Aye, the whole csm faction needs a complete rework, starting with making csm more than just cannon fodder and fixing our legion traits so cp and strategems aren't a requirement for our units to work. Unfortunately if pa is any sign then gw intends to continue fixing units with strategems. 13 out of 14 of the Admech strategems in Engine War are unit specific.

Paladins before the PA4 book and stratagems and buffs in it were also a no show in GK lists.

Termintors still are, but sometimes people run 10 to use the tides and +1AP.

Well we now have the CP values

500 points 3CP
1000 points 6CP
2000 points 12CP
3000 points 18CP

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/03/warhammer-40000-matched-play-points-and-an-appgw-homepage-post-1/


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:
Well we now have the CP values

500 points 3CP
1000 points 6CP
2000 points 12CP
3000 points 18CP

Link for that

Innnnteresting.

The victory point count has also skyrocketed. The listed mission can easily generate 15 VP a turn, so games could end up looking like NBA scores instead of NHL totals.

Wakshaani wrote:
Innnnteresting.

The victory point count has also skyrocketed. The listed mission can easily generate 15 VP a turn, so games could end up looking like NBA scores instead of NHL totals.

Yikes. Need more score dice.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:
Innnnteresting.

The victory point count has also skyrocketed. The listed mission can easily generate 15 VP a turn, so games could end up looking like NBA scores instead of NHL totals.

Yikes. Need more score dice.

Just use paper?

Ice_can wrote:
Well we now have the CP values

500 points 3CP
1000 points 6CP
2000 points 12CP
3000 points 18CP

I fail to see how a CSM army is supposed to work under 1000 pts with 6 CP but he, 6 pts cultists but 20 pts intercissors are fine and dandy..-

Not Online!!! wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Well we now have the CP values

500 points 3CP
1000 points 6CP
2000 points 12CP
3000 points 18CP

I fail to see how a CSM army is supposed to work under 1000 pts with 6 CP but he, 6 pts cultists but 20 pts intercissors are fine and dandy..-

Right with new cover rules that might be to much for Intercessors.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Well we now have the CP values

500 points 3CP
1000 points 6CP
2000 points 12CP
3000 points 18CP

I fail to see how a CSM army is supposed to work under 1000 pts with 6 CP but he, 6 pts cultists but 20 pts intercissors are fine and dandy..-

I don't want to derail this thread with pointsvrs balance.

But I do wonder if what is currently a 2k game is now replaced by a 3k game or if 2k is still the "normal" size game.

But in regards of CP right now it's certainly looking like they're holding back the full story especially given we know their is more core Mechanics strategums coming unless they are 0CP?

Ice_can wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Well we now have the CP values

500 points 3CP
1000 points 6CP
2000 points 12CP
3000 points 18CP

I fail to see how a CSM army is supposed to work under 1000 pts with 6 CP but he, 6 pts cultists but 20 pts intercissors are fine and dandy..-

I don't want to derail this thread with pointsvrs balance.

But I do wonder if what is currently a 2k game is now replaced by a 3k game or if 2k is still the "normal" size game.

But in regards of CP right now it's certainly looking like they're holding back the full story especially given we know their is more core Mechanics strategums coming unless they are 0CP?

Im thinking its just a 20% over all or around there, basically a 1750 game right will will be 9th 2k. But i'm just assuming.

Related to the army building, did you see they are increasing point cost for all units? The chaos cultist went up 50%, and intercessors went up 25%. Assuming the 25% is more indicative of the general trend, a 2000 point 9th ed battle will look like a 1600 points battle today. Of course by showing us two different inflation rates they are indicating to us this will not be an even affair. If they are going to adjust every units points there must be some formula/algorithm they are using to do so, I hope we get to peak behind the curtain on that.

Also, most significantly, matched play points will be in the app, which means they can be updated on a more frequent basis than once a year.

**Edit** so thinking about this, GW has run their tournaments at 1500, and if that size of game is their target for 2k points, then we should expect about a 33% increase overall.

With the CP totals posted, it now looks like the AREN'T drip feeding CP per turn- how do you drip feed 3 CP over a 5 turn game?

There may still be a mechanic for gaining drip fed CP- we'll have to see.

Can't wait for details on the app. I wonder if it will track Crusade experience and advances in edition to list building for matched. That's a lot to ask for, so I'm not going to expect it, but that would be outrageous.

 Grimgold wrote:
Related to the army building, did you see they are increasing point cost for all units? The chaos cultist went up 50%, and intercessors went up 25%. Assuming the 25% is more indicative of the general trend, a 2000 point 9th ed battle will look like a 1600 points battle today. Of course by showing us two different inflation rates they are indicating to us this will not be an even affair. If they are going to adjust every units points there must be some formula/algorithm they are using to do so, I hope we get to peak behind the curtain on that.

Also, most significantly, matched play points will be in the app, which means they can be updated on a more frequent basis than once a year.

**Edit** so thinking about this, GW has run their tournaments at 1500, and if that size of game is their target for 2k points, then we should expect about a 33% increase overall.

The launch of 8th also "shrinked games", but then the trend of lowering the point costs started.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:
With the CP totals posted, it now looks like the AREN'T drip feeding CP per turn- how do you drip feed 3 CP over a 5 turn game?

There may still be a mechanic for gaining drip fed CP- we'll have to see.

12 CP at 2K are seriously limited. I hope that there is something more that we are not seeing.

I had thought it was a bit limited too, but if everyone is similarly limited, it shouldn't be a problem.

Mine will probably stay 0.
I will try to ignore that stuff unless it is made more sensible.

PenitentJake wrote:
With the CP totals posted, it now looks like the AREN'T drip feeding CP per turn- how do you drip feed 3 CP over a 5 turn game?

There may still be a mechanic for gaining drip fed CP- we'll have to see.

Can't wait for details on the app. I wonder if it will track Crusade experience and advances in edition to list building for matched. That's a lot to ask for, so I'm not going to expect it, but that would be outrageous.

Might be that is the pre-game number and they’ll drip feed more each turn? Maybe a third of that number? One a turn doesn’t seem enough for larger games but more than that would probably overwhelm things at 500 pts.

Numbers just seem too small otherwise.

PenitentJake wrote:
I had thought it was a bit limited too, but if everyone is similarly limited, it shouldn't be a problem.

Except that some factions need cp more than others. Csm says "Hi".

12+6-what ever the second detachment costs,it is going to be very hard to play those 2 and 3CP stratagems, unless GW decides the tweek the CP costs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:
I had thought it was a bit limited too, but if everyone is similarly limited, it shouldn't be a problem.

Some armies have to use stratagems to do what other armies do just with their on basic rules. the change is not going to hit everyone the same way. And I say this as someone with an army that gets one extra CP per turn.

I’m hopeful with what’s been revealed so far. I hope that the issue of armies which need a lot of CPs to function is addressed though. I’ll reserve judgment for now, but I’m cautiously optimistic.

As for how they might help CP hungry armies, it could be a combination of things that each alone doesn’t seem much, but together are just right.

Maybe the increased points costs resulting in less models and units will mean you don’t need quite so many CPs as you currently would for the same points, with possibly additional CPs being generated each turn and appropriate CP cost adjustments for specific strategems?

Lmao people saying 2k points, and getting 12cp isn't enough?
My Custodes and Necrons rarely, if ever, get more than 8. This is a huge boost to armies that didn't abuse cheap soup battalions.

People are just being babies. FFS you also get CP each turn and we don't know if they changed stratagems costs as well.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Lmao people saying 2k points, and getting 12cp isn't enough?
My Custodes and Necrons rarely, if ever, get more than 8. This is a huge boost to armies that didn't abuse cheap soup battalions.

I think the best I ever got to with necrons in a real tournament was 11cp, Battalion + Outrider + Spearhead + Imotekh, and even with that I was feeling the bloat from all of those extra HQ. I imagine we'll see people scrambling to sell off their CP batteries at the start of ninth just like we saw space marine players selling off drop pods and rhinos at the start of 8th ed.

I have always run mono codex mono subfaction, but almost all my lists were brigades...

 Amishprn86 wrote:
People are just being babies. FFS you also get CP each turn and we don't know if they changed stratagems costs as well.

A GK army uses around 6-7 CP per turn. if you buy any relics pre game this means with 12 CP, you may not be able to take a second detachment, because there won't be enough CP to take it.

Considering most GK stratagems are 2CP and some are 3CP. even if you make 1 CP per turn, 12CP is really not much.

Karol wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
People are just being babies. FFS you also get CP each turn and we don't know if they changed stratagems costs as well.

A GK army uses around 6-7 CP per turn. if you buy any relics pre game this means with 12 CP, you may not be able to take a second detachment, because there won't be enough CP to take it.

Considering most GK stratagems are 2CP and some are 3CP. even if you make 1 CP per turn, 12CP is really not much.

I’m not very familiar with GKs in 8th, how many CPs would they usually get in 8th? As an elite army I doubt it’s much more than the new setup, assuming 1 or 2 CPs are generated per turn.

Karol wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
People are just being babies. FFS you also get CP each turn and we don't know if they changed stratagems costs as well.

A GK army uses around 6-7 CP per turn. if you buy any relics pre game this means with 12 CP, you may not be able to take a second detachment, because there won't be enough CP to take it.

Considering most GK stratagems are 2CP and some are 3CP. even if you make 1 CP per turn, 12CP is really not much.

Do you have any idea how much CP my Harlequins use? lol. i'm using 6-9 before the game starts also. Turn 1 i could be using 4-7CP as well as turn 2 i might need another 3-7.

But... again we don't know how much we get per turn, we don't know if some stratagems costs changes, etc..