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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Honest question: Where was it originally established that only Males could bond with the black Carapace, or the Geneseed? Was that established in any book, or was it back in like 1st edition?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, the SoB have no problems with making the Arco Flaggelents being male, or the Priests and ecclesiarchs. Why would it suddenly be wrong to put men in the suits of war?


That...is...a good point.

Are arco-flagellants and ministorum priests with weapons and penitent engines with flamers and giant sawblades somehow NOT considered soldiers directly working for the ecclesiarchy?

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Gert wrote:
So your logic behind SoB having the same marketing presence as SM is they were in the 9th edition Trailer? They weren't in Indomitus, they aren't in any of the ETB starter sets, they've not got their Codex yet, they get decisively less novels than SM, SM are on the posters that get put in shop windows, nearly every single warhammer 40k video game has centred on SM. Do I need to go on or is the point made?

Most armies haven't gotten their codices yet, what a dumb argument.

They also don't need to be in Indomitus because they're getting another Vs starter set. Your arguments basically hinge on saying Superman should be a woman because Wonderwoman herself doesn't have marketing presence (which is obviously wrong since the 2017 film made a LOT of money, like 800mill last I checked).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 blood reaper wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
yeah arbitrary if you ignore the time span from 3-8th. Insiting on that bit of consistency is neither qeustionable nor headcannon.


It is arbitrary because it has no impact on their actual characterisation and is most likely a result of failure to simply produce the miniatures.

You have failed to provide any meaningful reasoning as to why it is necessary that Space Marines remain all male except for "well, it's always been the case". It's effectively a circular argument and appeal to tradition. It's fallacious reasoning.

That's been the same exact argument for bringing male Sororitas into the fold but none of you have been really arguing against that point and instead ignore it.


We're not ignoring it. We're all saying we'd be fine with it because we don't see an issue. I'll also say Slayer that no, I want female Space Marines. They are distinct from Sisters of Battle. I do not want Boob Plate. I want Space Marines who are girls. You are dishonest and engaging in bad faith.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




And what does a female Space Marine look like if it doesn't have boob armor?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Kansas, United States

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And what does a female Space Marine look like if it doesn't have boob armor?


Does it matter? Give Space Marines "female" heads, like the Guard just got, and call it a day. In the end, modelers will make their own minis for female Space Marines.

The minis matter less than the inclusion: make female Space Marines canon, give them a few head swaps, and you're done.

Death Guard - "The Rotmongers"
Chaos Space Marines - "The Sin-Eaters"
Dark Angels - "Nemeses Errant"
Deathwatch 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






 Octopoid wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And what does a female Space Marine look like if it doesn't have boob armor?


Does it matter? Give Space Marines "female" heads, like the Guard just got, and call it a day. In the end, modelers will make their own minis for female Space Marines.

The minis matter less than the inclusion: make female Space Marines canon, give them a few head swaps, and you're done.


See, that's what I'm talking about. Modelling wise, there's nothing stopping you from using headswaps and having your own headcanon, you're entitled to that. Why however, would you want to impose changes that would change the established canon of the lore that you and many others have clearly liked for over 20 years? The focus on inclusion doesn't make sense to me when its clearly just a focus on making what's most popular fit into the "everything must be equally represented" narrative of people who want these changes. You don't see people be as desperate to push female models for things like Orks (people say they're asexual and use that to avoid changes, but if you want to go revise the lore anyways with SM, what's stopping you from retconning Orks to being male/female? We even have "historical" and even model precedent with the Orc cheerleader from BB), Ogors, Necrons (you can say the models are unisex, but there aren't any explicit female characters that have been named or given models).

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I personally really dislike the lore explanation for Primaris (a simple armour/weapon upgrade would have sufficed over what they did) but I would rather not double down on bad lore changes.

   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Kansas, United States

 Grimskul wrote:
 Octopoid wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And what does a female Space Marine look like if it doesn't have boob armor?


Does it matter? Give Space Marines "female" heads, like the Guard just got, and call it a day. In the end, modelers will make their own minis for female Space Marines.

The minis matter less than the inclusion: make female Space Marines canon, give them a few head swaps, and you're done.


See, that's what I'm talking about. Modelling wise, there's nothing stopping you from using headswaps and having your own headcanon, you're entitled to that. Why however, would you want to impose changes that would change the established canon of the lore that you and many others have clearly liked for over 20 years? The focus on inclusion doesn't make sense to me when its clearly just a focus on making what's most popular fit into the "everything must be equally represented" narrative of people who want these changes. You don't see people be as desperate to push female models for things like Orks (people say they're asexual and use that to avoid changes, but if you want to go revise the lore anyways with SM, what's stopping you from retconning Orks to being male/female? We even have "historical" and even model precedent with the Orc cheerleader from BB), Ogors, Necrons (you can say the models are unisex, but there aren't any explicit female characters that have been named or given models).

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I personally really dislike the lore explanation for Primaris (a simple armour/weapon upgrade would have sufficed over what they did) but I would rather not double down on bad lore changes.



Why is this a bad lore change? As has been noted, the lore was made to sell miniatures. It's not sacrosanct. Sure, as social injustices go, the lack of female representation among Space Marines is pretty far down on the list, but it's also pretty easy to fix. Why not do so? What are the arguments against making the change except, "It's always been this way"?

Death Guard - "The Rotmongers"
Chaos Space Marines - "The Sin-Eaters"
Dark Angels - "Nemeses Errant"
Deathwatch 
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







There are actually multiple female Necron characters. The last FW Necron big bad was female.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Jesus, what sport are we even playing now? I don't have a metaphor apt for the amount of times the nos have shifted the goal posts. I think the argument now is Because Wonder woman has boobs, they can't be pervs, because that movie made a lot of money, and Some space marines have bad haircuts? I don't know anymore. I can't spend any more time trying to empathize with people who's fragile little world would crumble if women were allowed to be Astartes. CLUTCH THE MAGA HATS!
   
Made in gb
Thinking of Joining a Davinite Loge





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And what does a female Space Marine look like if it doesn't have boob armor?

What does any post-human layered in armour plating look like? I'd you can't imagine a female armoured character without colossal breast plates then that's on you.
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sgt_Smudge 798058 11126067 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think we can all agree that 40k is not MLP in terms of inclusivity or open mindedness to new ways of thinking. That being said, attacking a stance by the shareholders as "deserving of contempt" is slightly odd. Why attack a company for attempting to make itself more inclusive?

It already is inclusive. You have Sisters of Battle if you want a female in Power Armor.
Call me when Sisters have the same market presence Space Marines do.

Otherwise, can we get rid of Space Marines, because we already have Custodes as "men in power armour"?

They do have marketing presence. You literally forget they were the primary hero in the video promotions for 9th, going as far as to defeat Necrons with relative ease?
So I'll hear you complaining about how many Sisters releases and Codexes there are, just like you have with Space Marines?

Remind me, is it a statue of a Sister of Battle that stands by Warhammer World? Is it a cardboard Sororitas that greets me as I go into my local GW? Is it a funko pop Celestian that GW released?

Don't play coy. You know just as well as I do that you've not got a leg to stand on here.

Also many people have problems with Custodes, myself included, because of the design space issue created along with lore. Actually, if anything, I'm for female Custodes and have pushed that idea before.
As have I. So why not both? After all, they're both "established lore".


You have that boob Armor to stare at already.
Just because you can't stomach the idea of wanting something without sexualising it doesn't mean the rest of us can't.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Outside Blood Angels and Space Wolves, none of the Marines are exactly pretty boys and have long flowing hair.
So, two of the more iconic Chapters? And let's not forget the Raven Guard and White Scars.

And, well considering that those Chapters all have successors...
So the female heads will have what to define them exactly outside the bobcuts you want to steal from the Sororitas?
Literally any hairstyle they want? Bald, mohawks, bangs, fringes, long flowing hair, dreadlocks, cornrows, whatever you want. Just make them an option.

Hell, many people were complaining that the female commisar released just not long ago didn't look female enough.
And those people's opinions were ridiculous too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:And what does a female Space Marine look like if it doesn't have boob armor?
Like a woman in power armour, just like a Space Marine looks like a man in power armour.

If you want to go down the whole "but they'd be genetically engineered, why would they look like wimminz" route, I have to ask "if they're genetically engineered, why do they look distinctly masculine"?

If we're going down that line, Space Marines should barely look human, so the male coded heads they have are already breaking muh immerzions.

Octopoid wrote:Does it matter? Give Space Marines "female" heads, like the Guard just got, and call it a day. In the end, modelers will make their own minis for female Space Marines.

The minis matter less than the inclusion: make female Space Marines canon, give them a few head swaps, and you're done.
Exactly.

Grimskul wrote:See, that's what I'm talking about. Modelling wise, there's nothing stopping you from using headswaps and having your own headcanon, you're entitled to that. Why however, would you want to impose changes that would change the established canon of the lore that you and many others have clearly liked for over 20 years?
Because when people use that "established canon" to stomp all over someone's creativity, and create the impression of "you're not allowed to join the Big Boys Club, the LORE TM says so", that's more than a little gakky.

If it wasn't for people throwing a hissyfit when women Space Marines are brought up, we wouldn't have this issue, but here we are. The only way to show people that their headcanons of "women Astartes" are something we're entitled to is to make it canon, because we've seen enough people scream and poop bricks when women Astartes are brought up.
The focus on inclusion doesn't make sense to me when its clearly just a focus on making what's most popular fit into the "everything must be equally represented" narrative of people who want these changes. You don't see people be as desperate to push female models for things like Orks (people say they're asexual and use that to avoid changes, but if you want to go revise the lore anyways with SM, what's stopping you from retconning Orks to being male/female? We even have "historical" and even model precedent with the Orc cheerleader from BB), Ogors, Necrons (you can say the models are unisex, but there aren't any explicit female characters that have been named or given models).
Because, and I don't know if you're aware, but Space Marines are kind of a Big Deal in 40k?

I dunno, maybe you've missed the massive marketing pushes and focuses GW have on Space Marines? I get it, it can be an easy thing to miss, but if you look, you just might see it!

Also, as mentioned, there are explicitly female Necrons in the lore.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Evidently, it's broken. Maybe it's time to fix it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/17 21:31:41


They/them 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






 blood reaper wrote:
There are actually multiple female Necron characters. The last FW Necron big bad was female.


Right, but what I'm saying is the push for recognition and visibility that you guys clearly want for SM having distinctly female traits/looks front and center in some way in either the canon or the models. There's like a one note mention of the Maynark dynasty's overlord being female (implied) by her being called the Mother of Oblivion? She's not even the one who takes active part of the FW campaign book, nor does she have rules, unlike her male Nemesor. What about female necrons with rules and models? Not just one note names that show up and then never get referenced again? Or are you so easily tamed by a token reference?

If you're satisfied with the way current Necron's are with having a unisex look, why are SM not fine the way they are now? If you guys keep pushing the genetics of angle of them looking the roughly the same anyways due to the genetic modifications, then what does adding females officially to the line do? It doesn't add anything visually that doesn't already exist in some form in the current 40k range, and it doesn't give a new perspective in terms of lore since they'll be infertile and brainwashed to be a child soldier like all the other SM anyways. SoB work precisely because being women, distinctly unmodified human women with mortal faults and physical ails, a dimension of feminity that contrasts with the inhuman aspect of SM and Custodes.

   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Kansas, United States

 Grimskul wrote:
If you're satisfied with the way current Necron's are with having a unisex look, why are SM not fine the way they are now? If you guys keep pushing the genetics of angle of them looking the roughly the same anyways due to the genetic modifications, then what does adding females officially to the line do? It doesn't add anything visually that doesn't already exist in some form in the current 40k range, and it doesn't give a new perspective in terms of lore since they'll be infertile and brainwashed to be a child soldier like all the other SM anyways. SoB work precisely because being women, distinctly unmodified human women with mortal faults and physical ails, a dimension of feminity that contrasts with the inhuman aspect of SM and Custodes.


Because for true representation, we don't WANT distinctly unmodified human women with mortal faults and physical ails. We have that. We want INHUMAN women, with all the larger-than-life representation of male Space Marines (who are also infertile and brainwashed), with all the same traits and faults, except that they are represented.

I'm really not sure why this is a hard sell. All people, male and female, black and white and anything else, should be equally represented. Why does this hurt you?

Death Guard - "The Rotmongers"
Chaos Space Marines - "The Sin-Eaters"
Dark Angels - "Nemeses Errant"
Deathwatch 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




That's a fantastic attitude. Luckily there are black Space Marines but there's no pictures of black Sisters of Battle last I checked. Start there.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Kansas, United States

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's a fantastic attitude. Luckily there are black Space Marines but there's no pictures of black Sisters of Battle last I checked. Start there.


Sure! Let's do that! While we're at it, let's make female Space Marines, since that's what we're discussing in this thread.

EDIT: Also, please notice the black Sister of Battle in the picture... on Games Workshop's website.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Adepta-Sororitas-Battle-Sisters-Squad-2020

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 21:44:00


Death Guard - "The Rotmongers"
Chaos Space Marines - "The Sin-Eaters"
Dark Angels - "Nemeses Errant"
Deathwatch 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





Grimskul wrote:Right, but what I'm saying is the push for recognition and visibility that you guys clearly want for SM having distinctly female traits/looks front and center in some way in either the canon or the models. There's like a one note mention of the Maynark dynasty's overlord being female (implied) by her being called the Mother of Oblivion? She's not even the one who takes active part of the FW campaign book, nor does she have rules, unlike her male Nemesor. What about female necrons with rules and models? Not just one note names that show up and then never get referenced again? Or are you so easily tamed by a token reference?
Because Necrons don't look like people. Because Necrons aren't the flagship faction. Because Necrons aren't Space Marines.
Making women Astartes canon would be enough. Literally just making them canon would work, because it removes the last refuge that people have against it before their mask slips.

If you're satisfied with the way current Necron's are with having a unisex look, why are SM not fine the way they are now?
Because Necrons don't look like human men? Because Necrons aren't the main faction in the game?
If you guys keep pushing the genetics of angle of them looking the roughly the same anyways due to the genetic modifications, then what does adding females officially to the line do? It doesn't add anything visually that doesn't already exist in some form in the current 40k range, and it doesn't give a new perspective in terms of lore since they'll be infertile and brainwashed to be a child soldier like all the other SM anyways. SoB work precisely because being women, distinctly unmodified human women with mortal faults and physical ails, a dimension of feminity that contrasts with the inhuman aspect of SM and Custodes.
So why do Space Marines look like men, if they're supposed to be so freakishly modified?

Either you make Space Marines look visually androgynous and inhuman, or you make them gender-neutral. It's simple as that.
Again, if Space Marines would functionally all be the same by the end anyways, why do you have an objection to that meat puppet in the armour being a woman? What's the issue here?

Octopoid wrote:I'm really not sure why this is a hard sell. All people, male and female, black and white and anything else, should be equally represented. Why does this hurt you?
Waiting for an answer too that doesn't involve falling back on lore that gets invalidated with every new book.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:That's a fantastic attitude. Luckily there are black Space Marines but there's no pictures of black Sisters of Battle last I checked. Start there.
Might wanna check again there then - look at the Seraphim Superior.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 21:43:24


They/them 
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




United Kingdom

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's a fantastic attitude. Luckily there are black Space Marines but there's no pictures of black Sisters of Battle last I checked. Start there.


There's loads. "The Book of Martyrs" was on the GW home page a few weeks ago, for example -

Spoiler:
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's a fantastic attitude. Luckily there are black Space Marines but there's no pictures of black Sisters of Battle last I checked. Start there.
Oh boy this comment's aging like fine wine.

Just say you don't want to talk about the topic and bow out without trying to move the goalposts and deflect, yeah?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 21:47:50


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Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Grimskul wrote:

See, that's what I'm talking about. Modelling wise, there's nothing stopping you from using headswaps and having your own headcanon, you're entitled to that.

And while technically that is the case, I've seen comments from women on Twitter who have done this and received torrents of abuse, up to and including death threats, because they dared model something that 'breaks the lore'... Making female marines canon at the very least fixes that particular issue.



Why however, would you want to impose changes that would change the established canon of the lore that you and many others have clearly liked for over 20 years?

The process of both personal growth, and the development of a society, means that there wind up being things that we considered perfectly acceptable 20 years ago that no longer seem quite right. 20 years ago women in the hobby just accepted that it was a male dominated hobby and made the most of it. These days, more people regardless of gender are realising that representation matters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 21:53:27


 
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







 Grimskul wrote:
 blood reaper wrote:
There are actually multiple female Necron characters. The last FW Necron big bad was female.


Right, but what I'm saying is the push for recognition and visibility that you guys clearly want for SM having distinctly female traits/looks front and center in some way in either the canon or the models. There's like a one note mention of the Maynark dynasty's overlord being female (implied) by her being called the Mother of Oblivion? She's not even the one who takes active part of the FW campaign book, nor does she have rules, unlike her male Nemesor. What about female necrons with rules and models? Not just one note names that show up and then never get referenced again? Or are you so easily tamed by a token reference?

If you're satisfied with the way current Necron's are with having a unisex look, why are SM not fine the way they are now? If you guys keep pushing the genetics of angle of them looking the roughly the same anyways due to the genetic modifications, then what does adding females officially to the line do? It doesn't add anything visually that doesn't already exist in some form in the current 40k range, and it doesn't give a new perspective in terms of lore since they'll be infertile and brainwashed to be a child soldier like all the other SM anyways. SoB work precisely because being women, distinctly unmodified human women with mortal faults and physical ails, a dimension of feminity that contrasts with the inhuman aspect of SM and Custodes.



I mean I would actively like to see a lot more 'feminine' Necron models! I imagine the fact we aren't making that push right now is because we're talking about Space Marines in this thread. If we were to make another thread about Necrons, I would fully push the development of female Necrons.

I mean to be clear, there are multiple female Necrons mentioned - but so are a majority of male characters (a vast majority of characters in 40k codexes do not even have a paragraph worth of lore to their name). I don't see why you are assuming I am satisfied - oh wait i do - it's because you're acting incredibly dishonest and making major assumptions of my position.

And if your argument is "Space Marines should look as they do' - I'm largely in agreement. The only change I would advocate were some somewhat feminine heads - there's also Space Marines who clearly do not look, from their facesculpts, over grizzled, so obviously the potential for fairly feminine face


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I love the sheer degree of false dichotomies going on in this thread. It shows how utterly dishonest the anti-female SM crowd is.

Oh you want female Space Marines? Why aren't you wanting female Orks or black Sisters of Battle? As if it's not possible to want both things at the same time.

As usual, the anti-female Space Marines cannot make an argument for why it is so important there are only male Space Marines and are forced to engage in incredibly fallacious and dishonest debate tactics.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/17 22:13:40


 
   
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I still want to know what the ret-con would be named by Cawl. The Secundus Marines? We could completely get rid of all the old fluff that just drags the genre down. Battle Sisters could be chosen from any world, not just ones with martial skills. Oh man the Sisters of Silence with fully funtional Custodes armor gives me chills. Female Grey knights!
   
Made in nl
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





 insaniak wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:

See, that's what I'm talking about. Modelling wise, there's nothing stopping you from using headswaps and having your own headcanon, you're entitled to that.

And while technically that is the case, I've seen comments from women on Twitter who have done this and received torrents of abuse, up to and including death threats, because they dared model something that 'breaks the lore'... Making female marines canon at the very least fixes that particular issue.

First of all people on Twitter claim lots of things, none of which needs to be true. Secondly why break/change lore to satisfy, I dunno, like 20 people on the world? It makes 0 sense. If we are going down that route we might as well trow out all established cannon to satisfy every weird fanfic someone ever came up with.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/18 02:27:19


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's a fantastic attitude. Luckily there are black Space Marines but there's no pictures of black Sisters of Battle last I checked. Start there.
Oh boy this comment's aging like fine wine.

Just say you don't want to talk about the topic and bow out without trying to move the goalposts and deflect, yeah?

I'm not moving thr goal posts and am in fact impressed they even bothered to draw a black Sister of Battle. However nobody has bothered with female Orks or male Sisters.

Simy because it isn't the representation YOU want. No, it doesn't matter Space Marines are the most popular army. There are female models all over. Y'all also have yet to tackle why Custodes wouldn't be the better place to insert your female fan fiction characters.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Castozor wrote:

First of all people on Twitter claim lots of things, none of which needs to be true.

Having seen the way that female space marine discussions on various forums have gone over the years, it's not just taking their word for it, though. We had a blanket ban on related discussion here for some years precisely because some people were consistently incapable of discussing it in a civil and reasonable fashion.

Hell, in my time as a moderator here I've received threats of violence for asking people to not insult each other. Even if I hadn't seen the public fallout from these sorts of discussions in the past, I would have no problem believing the women on various social media platforms claiming to receive daily abuse just for existing.


Secondly why break/change lore to satisfy, I dunno, like 20 people on the world? It makes 0 sense. If we are going down that route we might as well trow out all established cannon to satisfy every weird fanfic someone ever came up with.

If you think that having female representation is something of interest to '20 people in the world' you seriously need to step outside your bubble. I suspect that there are far more women in the hobby than you realise.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/18 02:36:20


 
   
Made in nl
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We already have female representation though, not sure why it needs to be the poster boys too? I'd equally balk at people wanting male SoB.
If you are so insecure you absolutely need each and every faction to be filled to the brim with females as well the problem might very well be you. Let's not pretend superhuman monastic death machines are in anyway representative of your average male wargamer.
   
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Under the couch

 Castozor wrote:
We already have female representation though, not sure why it needs to be the poster boys too?

The poster 'boys' are precisely the faction that needs female representation, on account of being the most visible faction.

That, and the fact that when the only real argument against it is 'But it's not been that way before' then there is really no reason to not do it, if by doing so you make your product appealing to wider audience.


If you are so insecure you absolutely need each and every faction to be filled to the brim with females as well the problem might very well be you. Let's not pretend superhuman monastic death machines are in anyway representative of your average male wargamer.

Representation isn't about being a 1:1 analogue. It's about aspiration.

 
   
Made in nl
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





 insaniak wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
We already have female representation though, not sure why it needs to be the poster boys too?

The poster 'boys' are precisely the faction that needs female representation, on account of being the most visible faction.

That, and the fact that when the only real argument against it is 'But it's not been that way before' then there is really no reason to not do it, if by doing so you make your product appealing to wider audience.


I feel this is were we disagree. Firstly because if I had my way SM wouldn't be as omnipresent in marketing as they are, secondly, and more importantly, "it hasn't been that way before" is a perfectly fine argument to me. I despise (lore) changes for the sake of changes. Again if the product needs to change for some groups to be interested in it, then maybe the product isn't meant for them in the first place.
   
Made in ca
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 Castozor wrote:
We already have female representation though, not sure why it needs to be the poster boys too? I'd equally balk at people wanting male SoB.
If you are so insecure you absolutely need each and every faction to be filled to the brim with females as well the problem might very well be you. Let's not pretend superhuman monastic death machines are in anyway representative of your average male wargamer.


I'd argue it's precisely this as the problem. It's the same problem that's leaked into many mainline franchises where people have put ideology and the idea behind needing "equal representation" in everything they see as some kind of new dogma for popular entertainment. They know it's hard to actually take the time to create an interesting original story or character to prop up that kind of representation without it falling apart under its own vacuousness if diversity is its only real selling point, so they latch onto existing ones and try to subvert it towards what they feel is ideal, when in doing so they change a core part of the setting that has existed for years only for the sake of a very shallow belief that they're making "progress" of some sort. Even from a purely monetary standpoint, I don't think they'll make THAT much more money from having SM suddenly be female, especially if there's just heads, since it's not like you couldn't use other heads from the GW range to begin with if you wanted to make your own homebrew female SM.

Why not find a different setting that fulfills your need for bioengineered adryognous soldiers in power armour? If there isn't one, why not do you part to help and create it? Not necessarily even as a self-sufficient franchise, but it's not like you can't make up your own RPG/game, etc. There's tons of other outlets if you want that kind of fix.

I'm Asian, I can play and have fun with settings where the majority presented is white, female, black, or whatever. I don't need 100% representation of me for everything I interact with. Hell, I play Orks, which are nothing like me. I don't understand this bizarre desire to have this optimal diversity when it isn't even that indicative of what that's like IRL. There's plenty of homogenous societies of primarily one type of race like in Japan, just as there are places that are incredibly multicultural, like where I live.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/18 03:23:11


 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Grimskul wrote:
...I don't understand this bizarre desire to have this optimal diversity when it isn't even that indicative of what that's like IRL. ..

And this, I feel, is where a big part of the disagreement comes from. People are too quick to say 'I don't understand the problem, therefore it isn't worth addressing'...

Perhaps taking the time to understand the issue would provide a better grounding on which to take a stance.


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's a fantastic attitude. Luckily there are black Space Marines but there's no pictures of black Sisters of Battle last I checked. Start there.
Oh boy this comment's aging like fine wine.

Just say you don't want to talk about the topic and bow out without trying to move the goalposts and deflect, yeah?

I'm not moving thr goal posts and am in fact impressed they even bothered to draw a black Sister of Battle. However nobody has bothered with female Orks or male Sisters.

There are female models all over.


As I pointed out earlier in the thread, the factions that are intended to be '50-50' are generally more like '1-99' in the model ranges.

CWE: 5 torsos in one troop kit, one elite squad (which hilariously when they updated to plastic GW made sure to include male heads in just so the boys don't feel left out

Drukhari: 2/8 I think characters, torsos and heads in 5 boxes. the Gold Star!

tau: 4 heads in 1 box.

GSC: 2 models in the biker box, the crewmember on the achilles, 2/12ish characters

Guard: 4 heads in 1 box - hooray, we're on the board!

Comparing to Age of Sigmar, there's almost no good way to make female models in 40k. If you want to, your options are like 4 heads in the sisters of battle troop box that aren't wearing the distinctive "That's A Sister of Battle" haircut, and now the 4 heads in the guard box. Otherwise, you're stuck pilfering bits from other game systems or buying third party minis.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot





when in doing so they change a core part of the setting that has existed for years

Ah yes, that famous quote:
"IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF THE FAR FUTURE THERE IS ONLY MALE SPACE MARINES."
I had nearly forgotten, somehow, despite it being the setting's tagline for decades.

Comparing to Age of Sigmar, there's almost no good way to make female models in 40k. If you want to, your options are like 4 heads in the sisters of battle troop box that aren't wearing the distinctive "That's A Sister of Battle" haircut, and now the 4 heads in the guard box. Otherwise, you're stuck pilfering bits from other game systems or buying third party minis.

I haven't tried or seen it done, but couldn't you use the FW Stormcast upgrade or Escher heads (to stick within 40k)?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 04:27:45


 
   
 
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