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col_impact wrote:
. I think many arguments I effectively win but the community gets pissed (and rallies against me out of a feelling of being deeply offended) because I violate their gut feeling for what the rules should do

I think that if you are seeing discussions in YMDC as something to be 'won', then you've completely missed the point of YMDC.

. I think Plato, et al, can help us out there.

Then you're probably taking the whole thing just a little too seriously.

I really hope that the horse is dead by now.

I also really like Hollismason's idea of building a deathstar and null-deploying. With a tanking D lord (or even just deploying the D lord with Orikan haha) you really don't need to put anything else on the table. That being said, you also waste valuable time that you could be using to advance that unit's position since it probably wants to be in combat, and the closer you get to the enemy the easier it is to flank your tank.

But it is pretty cool to see the amount of deathstars/pseudo deathstars that you can create with just Orikan and a kitted out D lord with the mandatory Nightmare shroud (and probably phase shifter) and res orb you are pretty much good to go. The crazy part? You can grab a solar staff and a chronometron on another Cryptek for 105 points. Those flayed ones are never going to die.

One last thing that Hollismason pointed out to me - you can actually take a res orb and an orb of eternity on the same character. So maybe you decide to take a cheap lord to grab the double orb and a solar staff. That one 130 point investment (if I remember the orb of eternity correctly) grants you two turns of re-rolling failed RP, aka near immunity to death, plus another turn of being snap-fired at. That is a pretty ridiculous amount of damage reduction. I think I may try out a "I won't die" silver tide with a couple Ghost arks, night scythes and probably a royal court. Can grab you 2-3 units that are going NOWHERE for most of the game. And of course, we're going to make sure that this is in a CAD so they're obsec. Haha now I want to try this out

 luke1705 wrote:
I really hope that the horse is dead by now.

I also really like Hollismason's idea of building a deathstar and null-deploying. With a tanking D lord (or even just deploying the D lord with Orikan haha) you really don't need to put anything else on the table. That being said, you also waste valuable time that you could be using to advance that unit's position since it probably wants to be in combat, and the closer you get to the enemy the easier it is to flank your tank.

But it is pretty cool to see the amount of deathstars/pseudo deathstars that you can create with just Orikan and a kitted out D lord with the mandatory Nightmare shroud (and probably phase shifter) and res orb you are pretty much good to go. The crazy part? You can grab a solar staff and a chronometron on another Cryptek for 105 points. Those flayed ones are never going to die.

One last thing that Hollismason pointed out to me - you can actually take a res orb and an orb of eternity on the same character. So maybe you decide to take a cheap lord to grab the double orb and a solar staff. That one 130 point investment (if I remember the orb of eternity correctly) grants you two turns of re-rolling failed RP, aka near immunity to death, plus another turn of being snap-fired at. That is a pretty ridiculous amount of damage reduction. I think I may try out a "I won't die" silver tide with a couple Ghost arks, night scythes and probably a royal court. Can grab you 2-3 units that are going NOWHERE for most of the game. And of course, we're going to make sure that this is in a CAD so they're obsec. Haha now I want to try this out

While that would be fun, you can't have solar staff and orb of eternity on the same character (Artefacts of the Aeons are 1 per character), but yes, double orb is a possibility. Unless you were talking about the solar staff or orb of eternity on your D Lord, but then he loses nightmare shroud.

Ah that's correct. So you'd need a third character (or to just sacrifice the shroud). But say you don't want a tanking D Lord. D lord takes res orb and solar staff; other character takes res orb and orb of eternity. That's 3 turns anyhow. Of course, once you add in Cryptek/Orikan, the unit does start getting pretty pricey considering that it too can probably be tarpitted

What's everyone's view on HQ load out for damage? Wasted in the new dex?
I'm excited to see a Burning One Conclave utilizing the Nightbringer, personally. I know it's a huge commitment of points but the amount of damage it can put out is enormous and easily threatens just about anything in the game. Just stay away from D weapons - but that's a universal rule.

The biggest weakness I see to a list like this is your blob of warriors can be swept in melee. One solid melee unit should be able to survive 20 attacks from Str4 AP- warriors while dealing enough kills to lower your leadership check to the point where you'll fail and be swept. All the balanced Necron lists either have fast units that can avoid melee or tarpit units to tie up melee. That's one reason why people like Flayed Ones. They're as annoying as warriors to kill but they can actually win combat and not be swept. So perhaps consider lowering your warrior count and getting more Flayed Ones.

Yeah, good points. I've also played around with the idea of getting a WarScythe in each blob, and maybe running three.

Talking about the almost Null Deployment beta strike, I think it only works with the Comm Relay not enough reroll reserves to count on for the reserves.

Speculation, let me check rules but I think this may be a way to "save" you're Decurion Canoptek Harvest units.

First off Wraiths and Scarabs are fast enough to come on from reserve and be where they need to be regardless, but the strength is getting that 1 turn of RP or continueing to get the RP afterwards.


So I think you could , roll for reserves, bring on the Wraiths, Bring on the Scarabs, it's still the beginning of the turn bring on the Spyder then activate the ability as they are with in 12".

Then the rest of the army comes on, now what to use for the Beta Strike though?

Like what ? Well Deep Striking H. Destroyers. Jetbikes that move on and fire.

Annihilation Barges.

Triarch Stalkers

Etc.. Etc..

So you've basically dictated the terms how you face your opponent, which is specifically strong against 1 army in particular, Flyrants.

Like what are they going to do? Decide to Land on great.

Charge the guy that's going to get a 4+ 4+ 4+ in CC that's going to do nothing, oh and then the rest of the army is going to show up.

So yeah I think it's a super viable tactic.

Punisher wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
People compare spiders to units that are way more expensive and see them as weak.

A spider or 2 can rapidly chew through units that are near their point costs. A single spider can also tarpit much larger units like a 10 man tactical squad, a guard blob with power axes, exc. They are a substantial threat to vehicles with av10 rear armor.

Well that's just wrong, 10 man tac squad with bolters inflicts 0.555 wounds(before saves) on overwatch and then 3.333 wounds in combat because they just use their krak grenades on your "monsterous" creatures body. So that's 1.3 wounds already(0.65 if decurion in harvest) and it's not taking into account the fact that they might have a fist or a melta bomb(which is really really good vs monsterous creatures). So it's not unlikely that if you charge a tac squad that by the time it's your turn again it'll be dead.

These thing are pretty bad combat wise, it a support unit that can act as a counter assault if something hits your line quickly. It will lose vs anything that is likely to approach it in combat( the only units it can beat are really your opponents back field support units and its not getting there). Equip it as a support unit, with fabricators if you have a tank line, gloom prism gives the only psychic defense in the codex, and the twin-linked particle weapon is actually decent for a support unit. It's best used in a canoptek harvest to give RP to your real tarpits and melee units and then sitting back protecting/fire supporting your slower ground army.

You are comparing 150+ points worth of Tacs versus 50 points worth of Spyder. The argument is, for their points, Spyders are actually very good in assault. If you have 3 non formation Spyders assault a full unit of Tacs, you will crush them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ferros wrote:
What's everyone's view on HQ load out for damage? Wasted in the new dex?
I'm excited to see a Burning One Conclave utilizing the Nightbringer, personally. I know it's a huge commitment of points but the amount of damage it can put out is enormous and easily threatens just about anything in the game. Just stay away from D weapons - but that's a universal rule.

Well, I think a WarScythe on a CCB is still kind of a no brainer, though bringing something like the 7 / 2 Template relic also has it's merits.

I'm playing around with some kind of modern version of the RC, as well, and I think there are some good things you can combine, there. Zandy + Solar Staff + Orikan + 2+/4++ Olords and some Res Orbs makes for a pretty impossible to take down unit. Then you can basically drop that in to some LG or whatever unit you wish. Or, get real cute and drop them in an NS with some Warriors or Immortals for some cheap ablative wounds and Ob Sec.

I think it's possible with Allies of Convenience and Tau who are I believe allies of Convenience. To get possibly every single special rule available , maybe or at least close using Zandrekh.

I'm not overly familiar with the Tau codex though so that may not be possible.

TompiQ wrote:

Punisher wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
People compare spiders to units that are way more expensive and see them as weak.

A spider or 2 can rapidly chew through units that are near their point costs. A single spider can also tarpit much larger units like a 10 man tactical squad, a guard blob with power axes, exc. They are a substantial threat to vehicles with av10 rear armor.

Well that's just wrong, 10 man tac squad with bolters inflicts 0.555 wounds(before saves) on overwatch and then 3.333 wounds in combat because they just use their krak grenades on your "monsterous" creatures body. So that's 1.3 wounds already(0.65 if decurion in harvest) and it's not taking into account the fact that they might have a fist or a melta bomb(which is really really good vs monsterous creatures). So it's not unlikely that if you charge a tac squad that by the time it's your turn again it'll be dead.

These thing are pretty bad combat wise, it a support unit that can act as a counter assault if something hits your line quickly. It will lose vs anything that is likely to approach it in combat( the only units it can beat are really your opponents back field support units and its not getting there). Equip it as a support unit, with fabricators if you have a tank line, gloom prism gives the only psychic defense in the codex, and the twin-linked particle weapon is actually decent for a support unit. It's best used in a canoptek harvest to give RP to your real tarpits and melee units and then sitting back protecting/fire supporting your slower ground army.

A spyder has 75% of the survivability of a carnifex at less than 50% of the price. Sure, the marines might bring a spyder down if they'te kitted for it, but they would not beat three which still would be cheaper than their squad.

3.888 wounds is 1.293 which goes down to 0.649 after rp. With only 1 marine casualty it would take 9 krak grenades 5 more rounds to kill a spider with rp averaging 0.5 unsaved wounds per turn.

a melta bomb would average another 0.27 wounds. That would only raise it to 2.9 wounds after 3 more rounds of combat.

4 rounds of combat should yield 3.75 dead marines before the spider drops on round 5. Not bad, 52 points of dead Meq and a unit worth triple the cost stuck in a tarpit for 5 rounds.

The problem with the maths in regards to a Spyder in cc is that they are slow. I would not be intimidated to see 3 x squads of 3 Spyders heading up the field ready to charge me. In a scarab farm list? for sure but outside of a scarab farm I don't see the point.

Back on the topic of RAW for multiple spiders in the formation. Only 1 interpretation really matters and that's the TO. It's best to assume the worst. If you are planning on running multiple spiders get approval beforehand and have a backup list if approval doesn't happen. If you are not running a list be prepared for the possibility of multiple spiders per formation.

A large number of spiders a lot of money and possibly time (depending how much effort is being thrown in) for a list that is at risk of being be protested to the TO.

Running some numbers for 3 super bricks ::

CAD + Royal Court

Zandrek
Chronotek
20 x Warriors + GA

Olord + WS + RO
Chronotek
20 x Warriors + GA

Lord + WS + RO
Chronotek
20 x Warriors + GA

1735

WarScythe in each unit should help out quite a bit in assault. This also has the advantage over the Illuminor version of have three independently functioning units.

Not a whole lot of room for toys, though.

You could certainly drop it two two bricks and bring more juicy stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2 Brick version ::

CAD + Royal Court

Zandrek
Lord + WS + RO
Chronotek
20 x Warriors + GA

Olord + WS + RO
Chronotek
20 x Warriors + GA

1280

Obviously a lot more room to play with, there.

Maybe something like ::

6 x HD
1 x Tomb Stalker
2 x 5 Flayed Ones

To bring it to 1835

The new necron book has so many competitive builds and a fantastic mix of cheap or elite shooty and choppy units. It's everything the ork codex should have been and a bag of chips.

I'm still trying to figure out my list. Probably just a single Overlord with a focus on tomb blades, flayed ones, spiders, and wraiths.

Could do with a little bit of advice here:

I worked out a list for a 2000 point destroyer cult army consisting of:

2 Lords,

11 Heavies (6 in Heavy units, 5 attached to regular units)

16 Regular,

2 Doom Scythes.

It's bound. Two cults and a Deathbringer Flight. That said, I miscounted the number of Destroyers I'll have access to by the end of the week when my last order of them comes in, and I'll have 32 models instead of 31. The most obvious thing to do there is make the spare another Heavy, but I already had a 1995 point list worked out.

Wargear on the D-Lords is:

D-Lord 1: Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Voidreaper, Resurrection Orb,
D-Lord 2: Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Warscythe, Gauntlet of the Conflagrator.

So, my question is: Would it be more sensible to leave my army as is, with the two Lords attached to a retinue of 3 regular Destroyers, or to find a sensible way to cut 45 points of wargear and have every Destroyer unit in the army have a Heavy attached?

Certainly cutting the Res Orb seems a no-brainer, those are situational at best and I only added it because of spare points in the first place. The hard part is then finding another 20 points to cut without making the unit's combat potential take a hit.

Does anyone have any experience running the annihilation nexus they want to share?

Hollismason wrote:
I think it's possible with Allies of Convenience and Tau who are I believe allies of Convenience. To get possibly every single special rule available , maybe or at least close using Zandrekh.

I'm not overly familiar with the Tau codex though so that may not be possible.

Just wanted to clarify since I think some people are misunderstanding this - you can't just get ANY special rule that the nearby squad has. It is a very specific set listed in Zandrekh's description. That being said, I think you know this Hollismason from the wording in your post. Just wanted to make sure it was clear to everyone


Automatically Appended Next Post:

changemod wrote:
Could do with a little bit of advice here:

I worked out a list for a 2000 point destroyer cult army consisting of:

2 Lords,

11 Heavies (6 in Heavy units, 5 attached to regular units)

16 Regular,

2 Doom Scythes.

It's bound. Two cults and a Deathbringer Flight. That said, I miscounted the number of Destroyers I'll have access to by the end of the week when my last order of them comes in, and I'll have 32 models instead of 31. The most obvious thing to do there is make the spare another Heavy, but I already had a 1995 point list worked out.

Wargear on the D-Lords is:

D-Lord 1: Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Voidreaper, Resurrection Orb,
D-Lord 2: Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Warscythe, Gauntlet of the Conflagrator.

So, my question is: Would it be more sensible to leave my army as is, with the two Lords attached to a retinue of 3 regular Destroyers, or to find a sensible way to cut 45 points of wargear and have every Destroyer unit in the army have a Heavy attached?

Certainly cutting the Res Orb seems a no-brainer, those are situational at best and I only added it because of spare points in the first place. The hard part is then finding another 20 points to cut without making the unit's combat potential take a hit.

Not a bad list. I can't wait until you get to take on drop pod marines. "You have HOW MUCH AP 3??" That being said, it's a very elite army and while it is durable, you're going to be bleeding kill points left and right. You do have an awesome amount of mobility with the assault move. If those dudes still moved 12" in the movement phase, I think it would be an awesome army. As is, I don't know if its strengths outweigh its weaknesses.

One thing - I would certainly try to get MORE res orbs in that list, not less. I would do the double orb combo on the second lord (grab orb of eternity AND res orb) since you're not Decurion and don't have any access to crypteks, you're only getting 5+ RP. Trust me, you can't have too many re-rolls. Two successes pays for the res orb and then some, and two successes pays for the orb of eternity. Always a good choice. Durability is much more important to your army than AP 2, which it will have enough of once it is close enough to actually use the flamer

 schadenfreude wrote:
The new necron book has so many competitive builds and a fantastic mix of cheap or elite shooty and choppy units. It's everything the ork codex should have been and a bag of chips.

I'm still trying to figure out my list. Probably just a single Overlord with a focus on tomb blades, flayed ones, spiders, and wraiths.

I know how you feel. I've been staring at this book for a month and still can't figure out what I want to play; there are so many fun options now, I just want to cram them all into 1 list

 luke1705 wrote:
Not a bad list. I can't wait until you get to take on drop pod marines. "You have HOW MUCH AP 3??" That being said, it's a very elite army and while it is durable, you're going to be bleeding kill points left and right. You do have an awesome amount of mobility with the assault move. If those dudes still moved 12" in the movement phase, I think it would be an awesome army. As is, I don't know if its strengths outweigh its weaknesses.

My big durability bonus is the assault move, which I can use to break line of sight/range, and Move Through Cover allowing me to jet up ruins to avoid charges from combat units without needing to worry about terrain checks. I think there'll be a bit of a learning curve on it, getting to the point where I can maximise the effect.

One thing - I would certainly try to get MORE res orbs in that list, not less. I would do the double orb combo on the second lord (grab orb of eternity AND res orb) since you're not Decurion and don't have any access to crypteks, you're only getting 5+ RP. Trust me, you can't have too many re-rolls. Two successes pays for the res orb and then some, and two successes pays for the orb of eternity. Always a good choice. Durability is much more important to your army than AP 2, which it will have enough of once it is close enough to actually use the flamer

Definitely don't know about that one. Resurrection Orbs are already extremely questionable at best with their once per game effect and high price. They're best suited to fending off combat Deathstars, and otherwise mean even less shooting in an army already not putting out massed troop gunlines.

I ran the annihilation nexus the other day and it was nightfighting which made it absolutely rubbish, everything had a super cover save - so unless im missing some rules about hte model or playing nightfighting wrong - i will never take it again, on the off chance that i have to do nightfighting again.

I'm sure in a day time game it would go gangbusters though. i just find the risk to high that it will be nightfighting and a large chunk of my force will be wasted.

Resonance wrote:
I ran the annihilation nexus the other day and it was nightfighting which made it absolutely rubbish, everything had a super cover save - so unless im missing some rules about hte model or playing nightfighting wrong - i will never take it again, on the off chance that i have to do nightfighting again.

I'm sure in a day time game it would go gangbusters though. i just find the risk to high that it will be nightfighting and a large chunk of my force will be wasted.

Well, it's generally only night fighting for one turn, right?

It's ridiculously easy to go into AV 13 Overload w/ the annihilation nexus as a formation and a cad , I mean I guess you'd need flying support ...maybe. All I know is that 9 Walkers is 1125.

Normal Cad
Barge Lord w/ Phase Shifter , Warscythe

Triarch Stalker
Triarch Stalker
Triarch Stalker

Warriors w/ Ghost Ark
Warriors w/ Ghost Ark

Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

Formation
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Doomsday Ark..


1800 points. Although you could probably fit some more Ghost Arks.
12 AV13 Vehicles.

Thinking of building the following as a core.

Decurion

Overlord void reaper, Res Orb

10 warriors
10 warriors
10 immortals
3 Tomb Blades scope, shield

6 flayed ones
6 flayed ones
6 flayed ones
7 flayed ones

Spider
3 wraiths 2 whips 1 beamer
3 scarabs

Spider
3 wraiths 2 whips 1 beamer
3 scarabs

Total 1498 points

Expansion would be primarily be more tomb blades, spiders and wraiths.

If multiple spiders per formation is approved I would shave off 5 immortal and about half the flayed ones.

You could probably split those Immortals up into two groups anyway, right? Oh, wait, I just realized that's by design for your Olord's retinue. Or maybe drop the spares and bring a CCB for the Olord.


Solid list, though. I think those FOs and Canopteks are going to work very well together.

CCB is good, but I don't think it will work in a list that has no other AV units. I'm afraid that would just make him a lascannons magnet.

 schadenfreude wrote:
CCB is good, but I don't think it will work in a list that has no other AV units. I'm afraid that would just make him a lascannons magnet.

The list has subroutining Spyders, and I'd rather have them shoot my jinking command barge, with the unoneshottable rider who re-rolls ones on reanimation. Even with ignores cover it'll take eight or so lascannon hits to bring him down.

Good point. I guess I should dump the void reaper for the nightmare shroud in order to shrug off krak missile and other hig g strength AP3 hits.

The Barge is still extremely durable. Even a BS5 railgun with ignores cover, which instakills the rider, only has a 21% chance of taking out the vehicle in one hit. Of course there's a 42% chance of a downed shield, making it highly susceptible to being HYMPed to death, but still, if it takes a squad of Pathfinders, a Hammerhead or two AND a couple of Broadsides to bring it down, he's not hitting the rest of your army particularly hard.

Okapi wrote:
The Barge is still extremely durable. Even a BS5 railgun with ignores cover, which instakills the rider, only has a 21% chance of taking out the vehicle in one hit. Of course there's a 42% chance of a downed shield, making it highly susceptible to being HYMPed to death, but still, if it takes a squad of Pathfinders, a Hammerhead or two AND a couple of Broadsides to bring it down, he's not hitting the rest of your army particularly hard.

Even against the railgun, after it takes out the shields then you just take all of the HYMPed off of the lord who if you kit him out right, needs to take a lot of shots before he dies. The barge is stupid durable to shooting, if only that was the case for it in CC it would be a nightmare unit.

I seriously have trouble with taking the CCB now. It's a glorified distraction Carnifex. Tough, but it doesn't really kill things. Either

a) You give it a Warscythe and dance around only attacking things that can't kill the Chariot easily (so not a lot)

Or

b) Give it a Staff of Light and try to pick things off with AP3 shooting while hoping not to get charged

Neither is great, and unless you follow him around with Tomb Blades he's always just gonna be alone. I suppose he can go around trying to kill off things like TFCs and Wave Serpents, but once he's in the back line don't expect much survival.

Such a poor unit, imo.