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Well, the title basically sums it up. How would you build a new chaos army to beat skimmers? My main tough opponents around my town are Tau or Eldar.... who seem to maximize on terrain cheese. Nothing quite as infuriating as being shot at the entire game by vehichles that you can never see because of how many trees there are on the table.

My initial thoughts are to maximize on terminators and obliterators..... anyone else have any ideas?

Posted By Angron on 09/10/2007 2:02 PM

. Nothing quite as infuriating as being shot at the entire game by vehichles that you can never see because of how many trees there are on the table.

How is he shooting you if there no LOS?

He takes nothing but suits and skimmers with smart missiles. The suits jump foreward, fire, jump back.... the skimmers never have to move as smart missiles don't need LOS

Watch his movement on the JSJ very carefully. Most people subconsciously cheat at this (happened to me at tournaments a lot, and had to force people to set a measuring stick on the table due to the epidemic of 7" moves).

Also, smart missiles suck, and do almost no damage...so let them shoot you.

Deepstriking obliterators are a pretty decent solution to the JSJ suits/etc, also. Twinlinked plasma will make very very short work of the suits.

One SMS system may suck but 5 or 6 of the things pounding you take a toll prety quickly.
Also 7in moves may get annoying but in this case they make very little difference (if the guy could get there from cover he can get back to cover). And most people walk their suite into cover anyways.

Raptors are a great answer for JSJ units. 12" move per turn - 18" on the turn they charge. No unit of suits can keep away from raptors AND maintain a JSJ attack. Also remember that the SMS is a short range weapons system. Unless you only play Omega level Cities of Death scenarios, you should be able to manuver your own vehicles to fire on him. Don't forget the Fleet move of your Defiler.

Deep Strikers, as stated above, are also excelent against enemies who hide. One turn of shooting from a CSM Terminator squad should be enough to ruffle their feathers.

Finally, don't play Cleanse for every mission. Play games that require capturing victory locations. This will force the Tau to move out of the shadows and into danger if he wishes to win. Then make him pay!

6 SMS -> 30 shots -> 20 hits -> 13 or some-odd wounds on marines -> ~4 and change marines a turn.

Now let's look at how many points you're paying to do that:
160 x 3 for hammerheads -> 480 + 240 for devilfish -> 720 pts

700+ pts to kill 4 marines in a turn? Over 6 turns, they kill maybe half their points.

Then, find me a board where you have enough L3 terrain to hide 5 gigantic tanks within 24" of your opponent, and we'll talk.

Play on a 25% terrain table. Use your crisis suits to kill the heavy weapons looking one way. You can easily fit 5 tanks in one area with minimal return fire. I play tau a lot and can almost always find space if i want it. Either the oposition's heavy weapons are spaced out or they are clumped. If clumped they can be avoided. if spaced out they can be killed peicemeal.

8-9 crisis suits will kill 10 raptors in one turn easy. And if you are in assult range you are going to take rapid fire plasma before you assult.

If my fish kill half their points and you dont kill any of mine I win. That is the basis for point denial lists...

Since the CoD terrain, it's not too difficult to get a good amount of size 3 area terrain on the table. Aside from tourney play where folks are trying to put terrain on a lot of tables, it doesn't seem too hard to hide vehicles. But, try to use the heavy terrain to your advantage as well. (Vindicator shot + Lash of Submission, Deep Striking w/ very minimal return fire etc...)

Deep striking units is one way. It also sounds like your opponent isn't moving tanks to maximize cover. Try to use this to your advantage and Deep strike to their rear or sides and try to get penetrating hits.

Crisis suits need to be assaulted, plain and simple. The critically hated Lash of Submission would work wonders against Tau. Get a Sorcerer on a bike or a flying and you should be able to get LOS to one Crisis suit. Then, just pull the Crisis Suits out from behind cover and light them up and/or assault them.

I'd even look at a Lord w/ Demon Weapon on a Bike. As an IC, he gets to reroll terrain tests (IIRC from basic rulebook). Have this model be set up for a turn 2 assault and lock the unit in combat. Point for point, it may be a good trade off (assuming this isn't a Farsight unit) However, you could always roll the fabled '1' for the Demon Weapon...no risk, no reward.

For Eldar, I'd imaging Harlequins and Falcons. If this is the case, Demons may be worth taking as tarpits. Every demon will get a save against the Harlequins. Space your Demons properly and you may even be able to manage a turn of shooting against the Harlies. Either way, you're throwing cheaper troops at your opponents more expensive troops and are partially negating what makes Harlies so great: Rending.

Deep striking can still be very effective IIRC the Icons act as teleport homers. Biker Lord w/ Icon, Biker Sorcerer w/ Icon can set up for some very good Deep Striking locations. (NOTE: I don't have the chaos codex, so I'm not 100% positive how the new Icons work).

Good luck.

Posted By Longshot on 09/11/2007 1:52 PM
6 SMS -> 30 shots -> 20 hits -> 13 or some-odd wounds on marines -> ~4 and change marines a turn.

Now let's look at how many points you're paying to do that:
160 x 3 for hammerheads -> 480 + 240 for devilfish -> 720 pts

700+ pts to kill 4 marines in a turn? Over 6 turns, they kill maybe half their points.

Then, find me a board where you have enough L3 terrain to hide 5 gigantic tanks within 24" of your opponent, and we'll talk.

ok your math is a little off

each SMS fires 4 missles from each tank.  hitting on 3's(bless the targeting array) wounding on 3s against MEQs

SMS serve one purpose and that is to kill infantry, which they do very well. a fish with proper upgrades a SMS and a busrt cannon is more effective than 12 FWs firing from range. people really really hate being on the recieving end of SMS.

the upgrade costs 20 points and is worth every penny because the fish do more than shoot. they move and shoot and take troops to objectives. properly outfitted they also survive nearly as well as eldar skimmers  and are thus points denial units.

they may only kill half thier points but they loose none  

 

my tau army is chock full of tanks and a single suite (because i have to take him now).

and we always play with at least 25% LVL 3 LOS blocking terrain(this isn't a GT afterall) and besides once i start moving the terrain doesn't matter as much to me.

 

here's a game from last weekend-

meatgrinder at 1850 points:  victory in my favor- i lost  1 fish,  the squad of pathfinders inside it and the commander

he lost a land raider a razorback a dread, most of his termies, immobilised pred. (took all the guns off his vindy) as well as 3/4 of a tac squad and over half a command squad.

this is at the start of turn 1

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i112/mughi3/Picture018.jpg

this is at the end of turn 6

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i112/mughi3/Picture027.jpg

the only way for you to really battle mech tau and suit tau is to be just as  mobile either through DS/drop pod/ indirect fire/speeders/bikes/or jump infantry.  or bring a ton of anti-tank weapons.

I have used SMS heavy lists and I conclude they are powerful in numbers.

I however no longer use them because free gun drones are the extreme of tactical units, they're pointless if you're not a good general but if you can use them right, they can throw the opponent off their game.

it realy depends on what you want to do.

my force is themed of the sa'cea sept world as such it is set up as an air-cav psudo armored company force operating in techno supercities. so indirect fire and mobility is a key combat doctrine for my forces.

Posted By mughi3 on 09/12/2007 2:37 AM

and we always play with at least 25% LVL 3 LOS blocking terrain(this isn't a GT afterall) and besides once i start moving the terrain doesn't matter as much to me.

 

That sounds like you're being very unfair to your opponent. "Always"? That's lame. The book itself suggests 25% terrain, but it says that some of that should block LOS, and some of it shouldn't. It certainly doesn't suggest that all of it blocks LOS, and all of it is Size 3. That's ridiculously biased towards your army list.

I agree with guozl in theory, but in practice, he doesn't use 25% terrain. 25% terrain is a lot more than you think.

Actually Chaos are quite disadvantaged against skimmers now that they've got less high S multishot weapons. In fact I would just build my army with Plague Marines and dual lash. The idea with Mech Tau is to lash crisis suits out into the open and get your points there. Against Mech Eldar I'm afraid there's nothing much you can do vs triple Falcon with Harlies. I would probably try and use Chosen to infiltrate, get first turn and try and gun down the falcons.

Posted By mughi3 on 09/12/2007 2:37 AM

here's a game from last weekend-

meatgrinder at 1850 points:  victory in my favor- i lost  1 fish,  the squad of pathfinders inside it and the commander

he lost a land raider a razorback a dread, most of his termies, immobilised pred. (took all the guns off his vindy) as well as 3/4 of a tac squad and over half a command squad.

this is at the start of turn 1

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i112/mughi3/Picture018.jpg

this is at the end of turn 6

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i112/mughi3/Picture027.jpg

the only way for you to really battle mech tau and suit tau is to be just as  mobile either through DS/drop pod/ indirect fire/speeders/bikes/or jump infantry.  or bring a ton of anti-tank weapons.

Those sleek, black Tau gunships scare the bejesus out of me.  I love the paint scheme.

I have to agree with cypher, as this is how the guy plays.... you get close enough to assault next turn... prepare to be rapid fired to death by plasma.... you sit back... he sits in hiding taking pop shots with 5-6 SMS per turn... 24 marines over 6 turns still is about half to 1-3 of most marine armies.... while his plasma jumps forward over a piece of terrain that's only 4 inches thick to fire, then jumps back over that same piece of terrain so they're on the other side of the template. My deepstriking guard army is the only list I've found capable of beating him... and that's because of the sheer amount of deepstriking plasma, melta, and demo charges.... besides that, I designed an all vehichle list for a friends eldar which is capable of ignoring the SMS's, as the only things in the Tau arsenal able to hurt it are suits, ion cannons and rail guns

Unfortunatly my opponenet is moving. He plays "wall terrain"... where there is atleast 3, 12" long, 4" wide tree pieces in a line on his side of the table, he moves his vehichles 6 " a turn, swapping spots, while his suits jump foreward and jump back.... most people refuse to play him, but I don't like to refuse a game.

Half the time you ought to win the terrain roll and get the fortress side, then he's helpless, just sit in the terrain and smoke him. If he's got fortresses on both sides chill behind your terrain and you are safe from his crisis suits. If he brings his devilfish into the no mans land within 24 to use SMS move forward into the terrain with oblits/terminators with combi weaopns and smoke them, he won't be able to make up for that VP loss. Draw if he plays safe, win if he gambles.

His ridiculous fortress terrain setup presumes you will act non-optimally due to your desire for a fun game. Don't feel compelled to follow his pace. Play just like he plays, wait for mistakes to punish and accept a draw if he plays optimally. Often a look in the mirror will persuade a chump to change his act...or at least to move on to new rubes.

Posted By quozl on 09/13/2007 4:31 AM

Posted By mughi3 on 09/12/2007 2:37 AM

and we always play with at least 25% LVL 3 LOS blocking terrain(this isn't a GT afterall) and besides once i start moving the terrain doesn't matter as much to me.

 

That sounds like you're being very unfair to your opponent. "Always"? That's lame. The book itself suggests 25% terrain, but it says that some of that should block LOS, and some of it shouldn't. It certainly doesn't suggest that all of it blocks LOS, and all of it is Size 3. That's ridiculously biased towards your army list.

actually it isn't biased at all.  terrain is key to most armies. once i start moving terrain is actualy a non-issue for my army. evenif i don't get 1st turn and there is little terrain on the table i still get a hull-down roll on all my tanks thanks to tau upgrades.

 

i play against IG often and they love all that area terrain to hide thier basi's and give them great cover saves.

Did they change the defiler's indirect fire in the recent chaos codex? I only saw one person mention indirect fire and was wondering if it got nerfed. Seriously the bane of these 'sit back and plink at your army' are the pie plates that come from ordinance because if your arty is hidden it basically forces your opponent to come to you. Since his army is built around hiding behind terrain I think that if you force him into the open your other heavy weapons will have a field day. As an alternative you can have units deepstrike behind his terrain but that seems really chancy since every gun he has will be shooting at your DSed units, and if he wipes them out he will probably have accumulated enough VP that will force you to go to him making you dance to his tune. Yeah indirect fire isn't all that accurate but you don't have to hit very many times with it either.

No more IF from Defilers.

You have to suck up the shooting attacks and tie up Crisis Suits in assault.

Deep Striking Oblits, Terminators or even Raptors (IIRC) after the Hammerheads.

*sigh* I had a hope that defilers would still be useful after the new codex...oh well, on to tau