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When I started playing this game many years ago, I used to max out my heavy bolter razorbacks with the works; pintle storm bolters, smoke, extra armor, searchlights.  Then I stripped them down to the bone with no bells and whistles for a long time to cram more units into my lists.  With 4th edition vehicle rules allowing you to move and fire one main weapon along with defensive weapons, should hunter-killer missiles, pintle storm bolters and extra armor be seriously considered for the razorback?  I have never played against an opponent in a GT/GD that has used the h-k missile.  That simple fact would lead me to believe it is ineffective at best.  100 points for an AV 11 razorback w/ h-k missile, twin-linked heavy bolter turret, pintle storm bolter, extra armor seems too expensive.

• despite the hunter-killer being a single shot, it adds a first turn anti-tank shot with a good chance of hitting.
• because it can move and fire the h-k missile, it provides a punch to firing at MEQ troops with the added heavy bolter turret.  At least one marine is going to fall getting it's points back.
• considering the abundance of MEQ lists in tourney play, it wouldn't be wasted.  It is also viable versus units in non-MEQ lists.

Has anyone played using this set-up?

Tactical squad 1x6 w/ lascannon, plasma gun, bolters

Razorback w/ twin-linked heavy bolter turret, hunter-killer missile

Any feedback appreciated.

 

It?s an interesting thought, and one I?ve occasionally toyed with. I think it?s something we may see tried in the newer marine lists; if the squads continue to require 10 men for a heavy weapon, a Razor with HK may become a reasonably cost-effective way to get a little more antitank into Troops. I think it?s too expensive to consider in the current SM list, with base 70pt Razors and your Troops still able to get Lascannons in cheap 5-6 man units. But in a Dark Angels or BA list, a base 50pt Razor with the HK might be worth it.

I think you would be better off ponying out for the lascannon instead if you really wanted the AT firepower. Razorbacks are reasonably cheap heavy bolter turrets, but 'reasonably cheap' still refers only to BA/DA at the moment.

In my opinion, there isn't a vehicle in the space marine army that shouldn't be equiped with extra-armor (besides those vehicles with power of the machine spirit). It's just too good. Same with smokes. If you are ever moving 12", you might as well pop the smokes. Protects and you couldn't shoot anything anyway. HK missiles and pintle-mounted storm bolters are a little harder to decide on. HK's obviously aren't worth it on lascannon razors because they can only fire when you are sitting still and I doubt your razor is going to be sitting still if you are using it right. On a HB razor, I'd throw the storm bolter on. It's a personal decision, but I use my razors for purely anti-horde or anti-tank/MC and I don't like mixing weapons. Both a storm bolter and a HK missle on the same vehicle is too many points for a pretty dainty vehicle.

Extra armor at 15pts is not so great.

I got the impression that we were talking about codex marines. Extra Armor at 5 pts is amazing.

HK missiles cost the same as a marine and have a 5/18 chance of killing a marine out of cover. All they do is add to the VP's that your opponent gets for killing the Razor.

On Guard chimeras, it's questionable...On a marine/DH vehicle...I'd say no.

"I think you would be better off ponying out for the lascannon instead if you really wanted the AT firepower" ~Orlanth

I agree with you and Mannahnin about the h-k's high cost for all the obvious reasons, especially the point your quote above points out, but the purpose of the h-k is not to make the r'back a dedicated anti-tank unit, which it would become with the lascannon turret.  The h-k would be used to enhance the effectiveness/versatility of the r'back without compromising/hand-cuffing it's original role as an anti-troop heavy bolter platform.  I was looking at it through the eyes of a poker player when applying the mathammer of throwing money/points into a pot/VP for the possibility of getting good return for the risk.

If two r'backs were equipped with the h-k missile, and they were used in it's intended role as anti-troop,  The krak vs. MEQ is getting it's points back.  No harm, no foul.  However, if the opportunity presents itself where those h-k's can pop a transport or bigger tank, I am spending 30 points to possibly gain anywhere from 58-145+ VP's for knocking out a vehicle.  This leads me to the conclusion that if I am going to field a r'back, (which I will field at least 4 in my mechanised marine list   ), throwing 15-30 points away for the potential to pop a predator at best, and a gaurenteed MEQ troop kill at worst, it's worth the gamble.  It is not easy for me to say this, as I convinced myself through game play for several years that putting any upgrades on my r'backs was pure folly and have played with the basic heavy bolter variety with great success for many battles.  Hearing you echo this point raises the caution flag.

Mannahnin, you say you toyed with the idea.  Was that just statistically in your head, or have you practiced it on the table-top?  If so, what experiences did you have?  My games are far and few between.  I have played one game since the Chicago GT and I want to try this @ the Baltimore GT in November, so my ability to play test has been weighed, measured, and found wanting.

BTW~ if I were to play a BA/DA list, those h-k's would be on every r'back I put on the board.

EDIT~ skyth, great point about the VP's, my original reason for never putting ANYTHING on my r'backs for years!

Zath, I was talking about codex marines.

btw, H-K's are Krak only...No frag option.

Oops, my bad.

The problem with HK's is, like, skyth mentioned, they aren't even close to being an assured kill on a marine. You have merely a 10/18 or 5/9 chance of killing a marine. Just barely over 1/2. That's not worth the points. You'd glance a pred 1/9 times and penetrate 1/9 times on front armor. If the pred you are shooting at costs 105 points, you still aren't making your points back statistically by a long shot. They are fun for that casual gaming: "oh crap, a HK missle blew up my Land Raider????" moment but little else.

I'm not argueing that they are infallible, but if they hit 4 times out of 6 and wound 5 times out of 6, isn't that better than average?  Also, with deployment, my preds are put down first, as are my opponents heavies.  It isn't difficult to put a troop choice on the flank, move 6" and get a side shot with unlimited range.  Like I said, I haven't played them yet to speak intelligently, but it seems they could be worth the 30 point payout for the chance to pop a vehicle from another platform in my list, even if it is a coin flip.  So out of 5 tournament games, those 2 h-k's are smelling like roses for 3 games.

Thr only one use missiles worthtaking are the Tau seekers. Because thyey are pretty much guaranteed to hit and can be sported by a markerlight, so lots of different units could end up pointing them at you. Even so they are rare.

Hk missiles are a gimic worth about 5pts each (maybe more for Bs4). 10pts is too much for either. They are great for making Chimerae look even more Soviet than they do already but are not really viable. Saying that some people like HK missiles on Sentinel squadrons, an extra 30pts over the 165pts already paid but for three lascannon and three missile shots guaranteed to be on the board at the start of the game. This could be very useful indeed.

Hunter-Killers are for taking an extra shot at a vehicle, hoping to shake it at least. Good use of points if you have them to spare.

I like the mention of relying on RB for fire support w/ special weapons in infantry squads. Put those bolters to good use.

I had a Rhino with two storm bolters on it I found to reasonably effective. I wouldn't bother putting them on RB.

It's worth every point to put pintle-mounted storm bolters on a HB razor. You are firing at infantry with the HB anyway, the pintle-mount acts like another marine firing 2 shots at 24" with a bolter every round. I wouldn't drop mine unless I was in a terrible points crunch. Also, as I stated earlier in the post, the single shot with the HK has a pretty terrible chance of glancing any real tank. The only thing it could have any real success against reliably are low armor transports/light vehicles (tornados, trukks, etc).

If your opponent scores a Weapon destroyed result, they'd likely take the turreted weapon first. With extra armor you'd still be able to maneuver into a good shot for the HK. Either he directs more fire to your Razor, or lets you move for a side or rear armor shot. It's also another weapon to lose before you start taking imobillization results instead. Ultimately, your razor should have maximum mobility as long as possible, so it can ferry it's unit.

This is why I like HK missles for anti-tank.

A six man squad of Devastors armed with 4x Missile Launchers is 170 points. If they fire 5 times in a game, you're paying 8.5 points per shot. If they fire 3 times in a game you're paying 14.2 points per shot.

At the current price a Predator Annihilator has 2 sponson and 1 TL lascannon, call it the equivalent of 5 Missile Launcher shots, is 145. If you shoot it three times you're paying 9.7 points per ML shot.

So while they might be 5pts too high, the thing about Hunter-Killers is that you get them off early at the beginning of the game for front-loaded damage.

@Lordhat. Actually, enemies must remove the HK missle first since it is the only main weapon on the vehicle if you use HB razors. Keeping the turret on is definatly an advantage of the HK, but I wouldn't spend 15 points on it.

@Tacobake. Um.....what? 3 lascannon shots = 5 missle shots? I can't follow any of the logic in that post.

Posted By Zathrithal on 09/22/2007 9:22 PM
@Lordhat. Actually, enemies must remove the HK missle first since it is the only main weapon on the vehicle if you use HB razors. Keeping the turret on is definatly an advantage of the HK, but I wouldn't spend 15 points on it.

Weapon destroyed doesn't talk about 'main' weapons, just choose a weapon of str 4 or over, am I missing a rule somewhere, or are you thinking 3rd ed which i vaguely remember working something like that.

Besides it would only waork if tyou didnt fire the missile. If offered a 15pt tank upgrade for Razorbacks only that ignored first weapon destroyed result you wouldnt take it. Why reduce your HK missile to that?

I have found a use for HK missikles though. The marine ones make good IG missile launchers. Mount them on a cut down mortar bipod and they serve as TOW launchers. I am building one up as a test for better looking IG missile heavy weapojns teams, so far it looks good.

Yeah, I'm thinking of 3rd edition. My bad!

@Tacobake. Um.....what? 3 lascannon shots = 5 missle shots? I can't follow any of the logic in that post.

I meant hand-waving it was about the same.

1 TL S9 shot + 2 S9 shot ~= 5 S8

---
if you want to get fancy, I think I plugged it into my calculator, 1/2 chance for S9 1/3 chance for S8

1*8/9*1/2 + 2*4/6*1/3 = 1.111
5*4/6*1/3 = 1.111


It was just supposed to be an approximation.  The point is that HK might be a few points too expensive but they're still nice for some early game anti-tank.  Also I was trying to demonstrate that while it's a one shot weapon, often tanks with multiple guns only get to fire them a few times in a game anyway.

Now that said, I wouldn't put it on a Razorback unless I was taking the TL LC, which I might consider under the new prices but I'd probably take the HB.

Eh...upgrades on a RB have never, to my mind, been all that worth it, except maybe smoke. The point of a RB is a cheap gun platform and extra armored target -- anything that increases its cost without a DRAMATIC increase in usefulness detracts from that purpose. I usually just take twin HB and a smoke launcher and leave it at that.

-Adso

Not using extra armor is such a waste. If you have extra armor on there, it can act as mobile cover for the whole fight unless your opponent dedicates some real firepower on it.

I find xtra armour as not worth it for Razorbacks, unless you have a choppy unit you are transporting.

The vehicle is useless (more like suicidal) for tankshock. It is there to shoot. If it is hitbit is likely immobilised or has its weapon destroyed if not destroyed outright. Most shots will be penetrating.

If its shaken its no more useful than if it is stunned. The Razorback serves by attracting fire, stunned or shaken it is equally ignorabvle, unles you want to kill it outright. Therefore keep it as a cheap turret, if it absorbs autocannon or lascannon fire, its doing its job, if it doesnt it shoots.

For a transport a Rhino is a cheaper better choice. extra armour belongs on Rhinos, not on Razobacks. The real question is whether Rhinos have a place on the bvoard at all.

I like to use one Rhino to give my only 10 man squad w/ tricked out vet an extra few inches deployment at the beginning of the game. Alternatively it can drive around as a flank.

I was also taking two and using them as a wall to cut my opponent's army in half. While fun I found it to be not the most effective in all situations, not to mention very irritating for my opponent.