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Venerable Dreadnought w/ twin-linked lascannon, missile launcher, tankhunter @165 points

OR

Veteran Squad 1x5 w/ lascannon, bolters, tankhunters

Razorback w/ twin-linked lascannon turret @ 195 points

The vets,
The dread is to easy to shake to prevent it from shooting. Nobody shakes veterans. Also, the vets provide two different targets and can shoot two directions making them a better choice.

Depends completely on your list. If the list has many other tanks (preds or vindies or land raiders), I'd go with the dread. People will either target the dread and let the more dangerous targets kill them while desperately trying to pop a very difficult to pop target or they will shoot at the bigger targets and let you wreak havoc with the TL lascannon and missle launcher. In a mostly infantry list, the dread will get popped with all the anti-tank people pack in to deal with nidzilla and the vets will perform head and shoulders above the dread. Personally, I'd get 2 vet squads with lascannons and infiltrate them if you really want anti-tank punch.

In terms of sheer power put out, the Marines are a better deal -- in fact, even without Tankhunters as a Troops choice, they're a better deal.

However, they're close enough that context could make the difference. In an armor-heavy list, the threat escalation of armored targets might well swing the survivability factor so far towards the Dread that it would win. The Dread can also move-n-shoot or be loaded into a drop pod, so if you're looking for that little extra mobility, it might well be a better choice. However, in most Marine lists, more power-armored bodies is usually where its at.

-Adso

Quick question (as I've never acctually bothered to use vets since 3rd ed...) If upgraded to tankhunters does the razorback get the special rule as well?

Nope, the marines are upgraded, the transport they're riding in is not.

I wouldn't bother buying a dread for antitank in a marine army. Lots of better options out there.

Even better then vets or dread: 5 man terminator squad, 1 chainfist, 2x AC and tank hunters.

Take Honour Your Wargear doctrine and take elite Devastators: Six marines with four missile launchers with tank hunter. 188pts

Orlanth speaks the truth. This unit is great and can knock skimmers down as easily as lascannons(which still isn't easy) at significantly cheaper points.

Orion

I agree with Orlanth -- I love Honor Your Wargear (or Suffer Not The Works) for the ability to suddenly make Missile Launchers a viable choice. The thread was more a question about the choice BETWEEN those two units, though, not the best tank-killer marine unit out there.

Out of curiosity, Dornsfist, why the limitation? A larger discussion of how to tank-hunt effectively as Marines could be interesting....

-Adso

I suspect because the rest of the list is already fixed.

I used elite Devs simply because I had three vehicles for my Heavy Support and wanted Devs in my list. The fact that they are very good was just a bonus! As compensation I take Die Standing so my marines are disavowed from the popular podding lists. A fair trade I think in keeping with the spirit of how doctrines should be used. It also saves me the bother of making pods.

 

My take: This all makes sense too. My marines are not intended as cannon fodder. A one way ticket, on a drop pod is no good. I deploy my marines (in the background) by Thunderhawk or two-way teleporter only, supported in such a way as to get the most bang (or smack), out of the fewest number of the Emperors finest. Hence the mechanised list. Extraction is an important to delivery to a Space Marine, you don't just do the job and get left to die. In keeping with this thinking I have no normal Devastator or Veteran squads . In my chapter the best guns go to the best men. Hence my Veterans and Devastators are one and the same. Personally I find this consistent  with my Chapter ethos.  A Wisdom trait, low model count, high mobility, high firepower and small efficient assault/counterassault units 'led' by heavily armed veterans. I find this better portrays the elite status of marines than a horde army, Flesh Over Steel? Only if you think marines grow like flies.

By the way, I "recommend" a six marine squad because I take a lascannon Razorback with them.  Actually to optimise the squad I would take an extra two marines at 36pts extra cost.

I have 1 elite slot open and I want to fill it with an anti-tank/MC unit.  I have the builds finished, just not the playing experience with either unit to make an intelligent decision.  I suspect the vets will perform better, but the dread is cheaper and mobile.  They both produce the same firepower, hence my dilemma.  Sorry Orlanth, can't use traits, pure vanilla only

What else is in your list, Dornsfist? Most people mentioned the importance of traget saturation with armor...

-Adso

Depending on your officer you could take a 'devastator' command squad. But that is getting desperate for anti tank.

Veterans are best used as an assault unit, not for firepower. The dread is a more usual choice and as everyone has said it is mobile.
I am assuming you already have some lascannon in your tacticals, and some anti-tank somwhere in your heavy support. If so the mobile shot will offer you something new, if not you need to rethink your entire list, not just your elites.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/CommunityForums/tabid/56/forumid/18/postid/173242/view/topic/Default.aspx

In this thread I asked about lascannon and missile launcher dreads, having been given one. The advice here will help you. I also came to like the piece myself. while is doesnt truly fit in a mechanised list - its too slow and cannot be transported, it does the job. I prefer my Veteran Devastators though, hands down.

People say that veterans are better for assault, but I have yet to see a list that actually uses them in that role. The weapons cost the same as a tactical squad and they get veteran skills for 3 points, so I don't see why they can't be anti-tank.

Veterans can be more effective in assault because they are the only Marine unit (command squads aside) which can do all of the following:

1) Switch out bolters for BP/CCW freely,
2) Take multiple hidden PFs in the squad,
3) Kit the entire squad with terminator honors and,
4) Take an extra power weapon for a discount.

I've used them as a counterassault unit, they're quite respectable. With honors, furious charge, a flamer, and ccw, they have taken apart some of my Eldar squads (Guardians, Warpspiders, Avengers) on cue. The only real problem is that one is almost always better off taking the same squad as a Command squad and leaving the Elites slot for Dreads and Terminators -- their only advantage in the Elites slot is an earlier deployment.

-Adso

Brother Adso, it's a mech list.  Preds, R'backs, LR.  So there is tank saturation.  The dread is more expensive than a pred, so targetting it early is not the worst thing for my opponent to attack it's weaknesses of having an AV (one shot/one kill).  I like the dreads mobility and ability to gain the hull-down in terrain.  However, it is a coin flip whether it will work, and the dread most likely will not be able to shoot if it is hit. 

Orlanth, the command squad configuration is going to cost as much as a land raider before adding in the leader (61 points minimum).  I see what you are doing and agree it is choice as two strength 10 weapons is 'the bomb', it seems the cost makes it non-viable.  I would be better off buying a techmarine (65 points) for the veteran squad with lascannon, at least he adds the signum and can be in base with the R'back to repair it.  Thanks for the link.  BTW~ have you played the dread?  How does it perform?

I understand the pros/cons of both units and the theoryhammer.  I am looking for advice/feedback from people who have used either/both units on the table top and their experiences.  If someone wants to start a thread about the most effective marine tankhunting unit, be my guest.  I say it is the predator annihilator with lascannon sponsons.  It's firepower/cost ratio, AV13, and mobility appeal to me, plus I have used it with consistent success.  But I am looking for a comparison between two specific units for now.

The goal is to create a strength 10 shot for all the obvious reasons.  The choice is between the following:

Venerable Dreadnought w/ lascannon, missile launcher, tankhunter

OR

Veteran Squad 1x5 w/ lascannon, bolters, tankhunter vet. skill

Razorback w/ lascannon turret

Thanks.

If you have a fully mechanised list as a pure theme take the veterans. The dread, though a vehicle, does not fit with a pure mechanised list as it would not keep up with the tanks and cannot easily be transported.

However the dread is the better option, it is more mobile overall, and if teamed with the Pred offers hard choices for opponents firepower. Its also a cleaner option. Something about lascannon vets just doesnt sit right.

That is my choice from the two options given.

In all honesty though, I would take a Veteran squad with a hybrid armament. six vets with two power fists and a melta gun, honours 'to taste'. It will spend more time in the Razorback than the other version, and cost more, but it can make a vehicle have a real bad day, and has other uses too.

Another option is a Techmarine with three tech servitors and a mulotimelta servitor, in the lascannon Razorback. Bit of anti tank and good support for your mechanised list.

Posted By Orlanth on 09/21/2007 11:16 AM

Another option is a Techmarine with three tech servitors and a mulotimelta servitor, in the lascannon Razorback. Bit of anti tank and good support for your mechanised list.

The techmarine is the best choice, for what Orlanth said, AND for the fluffiness, and the opportunity to do an extra cool model.

Strategically, if you are looking at an elite slot as a last ditch way to bolster your anti-tank capabilities, you probably need to go back and re-work your list completely.

Posted By whitedragon on 09/21/2007 12:41 PM

Posted By Orlanth on 09/21/2007 11:16 AM

Another option is a Techmarine with three tech servitors and a mulotimelta servitor, in the lascannon Razorback. Bit of anti tank and good support for your mechanised list.

The techmarine is the best choice, for what Orlanth said, AND for the fluffiness, and the opportunity to do an extra cool model.

Strategically, if you are looking at an elite slot as a last ditch way to bolster your anti-tank capabilities, you probably need to go back and re-work your list completely.

But a servitor cannot move and fire the multimelta... he's near useless.

If you want something for a mechaized list that's anti tank go with a landspeeder tempest if your group allows forgeworld rules.

A dread with lascannon and missle launcher with tank hunter is one of the best anti tank units you can get. It can move and fire both weapons unlike a pred.

I would go with the Dread if you have tank saturation. Why? Size. Tanks block LOS beautifully. If you have las/plas squads with Razors, just hide your dread behind the Razors, then step him out and fire. Another Razor might not have that option. Additionally, if you have a terrain bottleneck or a hold mission, the Dread is more flexible than another tank and fragile footsquad. Finally, the ability of the dread to fire a frag missile if you are caught completely up against a horde makes it better than the totally mono-tasked Veterans.

-Adso

Oh, and from my own experience: people don't like Dreads. They cause people to make rash decisions. Another squad of Marines might just make them shrug. My Dread always stands impressively with tac squads on foot and makes my opponent wonder what I might have up my sleeve. I usually run it with a CCW, and it's given things like Howling Banshees, unsuspecting Guard Stormtroopers, etc a very bad day indeed. With only a str6 stomp, your dread is slightly less destabilizing, but hey....you said you wanted personal ancedotes ;-).

-Adso

I agree with BrotherAdso, that's why I make sure my dread is venerable and toss him into the charge with the tanks. Who knows why people target him over the much easier to kill preds and vindies, but they just see the might and wisdom of a Space Marine hero and go crazy with blood-lust I guess. If you have tank saturation, people will target the dread with as many shots as it takes to bring it down, leaving more valuable assets chance to maneuver and start getting shots off.

I disagree about the CCW though. I've never had 3 (4 on the charge) Str 10 attacks make or break a game. They help in a pinch, but they rarely destroy squads or such. Mostly, they just tie them up, and a Str 6 dread will tie up squads just the same as a Str 10 dread, but it will do it after bring all of its much more potent weaponry to bear.