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 Well, I'm finally getting around to making up a new army list.  I'm not completely sold on the army list size just yet though.  I was really only going for 1000 points, to give myself a goal and a workable, usable, fun army to play with.  My plan is to make these all new models or existing freshly painted ones.  You can check out the progress on that side of the project in my blog for the army here: www.dakkadakka.com/CommunityForums/tabid/56/forumid/56/postid/192445/view/topic/Default.aspx .  The issue I'm running into is that I really want to have all these great and wonderful things in this small army but I can't figure out what I can cut out to bring me down to a cool 1k without gimping the list.  I know there is a lot of wargear work in here.  I just need some help figuring out what to keep and what to get rid of. <table width="200" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1" border="0" align="left" summary=""> <tbody> <tr> <td align="center">HQ </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Chaplain  
Power Fist 
Terminator honors
Artificer Armor </td> <td>
</td> <td>145</td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Veteran Squad (5) (FC)
Veteran Sergeant
Power Weapon
Terminator Honors(4)
Power Fist 
Power Weapon
Flamer
Razorback
Smoke Launchers
Extra Armor</td> <td>
</td> <td>279</td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Tactical Squad (10)
Veteran Sergeant
Power Fist
Bolt Pistol
Lascannon
Flamer
Rhino
Smoke Launchers
Extra Armor</td> <td> </td> <td>259</td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Tactical Squad (10)
Veteran Sergeant
Power Weapon
Bolt Pistol
Plasma Cannon
Meltagun
Rhino
Smoke Launchers
Extra Armor
</td> <td> </td> <td>263</td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Predator Annihilator
Lascannon Sponsons
Smoke Launchers
Extra Armor
</td> <td> </td> <td>153</td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center">Total</td> <td> </td> <td>1099</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
Any ideas?

Hum, where to start?

First, 10 man squads with heavy weapons (besides MAYBE heavy bolters) are a mistake. 10 man squads move, they don't have heavy weapons. If you really want an in-your-face list, drop the lascannons out of the tac squads, replace the flamer in squad 1 with another melta gun and give the sarge in squad 2 a power fist.

Secondly, the vet squad is far too much of a points sink. If you want an assaulty type unit, get an assault squad. It will run about the same amount of points and will survive much longer and actually live to get to your target. Assault units in transport vehicles doesn't work for marines unless we are talking about Land Raiders. Also, to compliment this change to an assault squad, give your chappy a jump-pack and drop the fist. He comes with a free power weapon, no need to waste points on the minimal upgrade to a fist. Also, drop the artificier armor. It may help a bit in CC, but not much and he's not going to be getting a 2+ save if he is in with your new assault squad. Try and find the points to give your assault marines melta-bombs and 2 plasma pistols. You will need it with your lack of anti-tank.

Finally, the pred annihilator. It is a very hard lesson to learn with marines, and I myself find that I break my own rule quite often. However, marine tanks are not survivable. They aren't even close. They are light tanks. Personally, I think that throwing a kitted out annihilator in a list with only 2 other vehicles, which are only transports, is going to get a blown up tank pretty damn fast. Keeping with the general moving theme of your list, but in a effort to give the list some anti-tank punch, I'd drop the pred for a venerable dreadnaught with TL lascannon and missle launcher and the veteran skill tank hunter along with some smokes. This guy is hard as crap to pop and people will debate shooting him over the rhinos that are about to be in their face. Also, unlike the pred, the dread can move and shoot all its guns.

Mechanized marines are hard to run at 1k points mostly because their just aren't as many models on the table as I would like. It's hard to fit all the punch in and keep the mobility at such a low points cost, but with the above advice, I think you can manage it.

I really was trying to go for a well rounded list with the set up I picked.  The basic tactic I was working around was pushing my two tactical squads to good firing positions and start laying down some firepower, and screening for the pred who would start punishing them right away.  That's the reasoning behind having such a mobile force with big guns. 

The vet squad and Chappy are sort of my contingency plan for armies that want to close the gap with me fast.  I used to run just a chaplain on a bike (way) back in the day for my HQ and he was damned near unstoppable (granted he had +1 toughness to one on foot).  But really he was my only big punch for CC.  Damned near everything else was all shooty.  I've really always been about the big guns and hard hitters.  Dropping the powerfist on the chap does seem like a pretty good start though.  I just saw the model with both and wanted to try and incorporate him into the army. 

I never really gave an Assault Squad any serious thought.  Maybe I'm just not experienced enough to see the viability of them considering the angle I normally take for building an army.  I think I'll toy with the idea of retooling the list for a more 'assault' feel.  Or just reconsider having a mounted force all together. 

Thanks a ton for all the stuff to chew on.  I'll get to more of the points you mentioned a bit later ^_^. 

What's with the 10-man squads? Even if you don't want cookie-cutter 6-man las/plas, you could always field squads of 5--one with a special and one with a heavy--and simulate combat squads.

I'd drop the individual pt costs. Copyright issues. GW could shut down this site.

Lol - isome replies you get here these days Well if GW isn't going to close down the site, here's some comments.

1stly - in what kind of an enviroment are you going to be playing in?

I think the main problem power wise is that your large bread and butter units are very jacks of all trade in very unreliable transports and armies that do their thing well will be very tough to face with this list.

Posted By migsula on 09/30/2007 10:39 AM
Lol - isome replies you get here these days Well if GW isn't going to close down the site, here's some comments.

1stly - in what kind of an enviroment are you going to be playing in?

I think the main problem power wise is that your large bread and butter units are very jacks of all trade in very unreliable transports and armies that do their thing well will be very tough to face with this list.

Really I'm not certain the environment that I'll be playing in with the army.  Which I guess is why you see me trying to keep it open and rounded.  I don't know who/what kind of opponents I might be facing in my area, since well, I haven't touched base with any for a long while. 

In an effort to make the army more of a shooty list, I am toying with dropping down to 6 man tac squads in razorbacks.  Which when I do so, brings me within 9 points of 1k without implementing any other changes to the list. 

Really I think the main reason for putting together a solid 1k is that I won't go out wasting money on models I won't end up using for the force.  Which is why you see me sticking the Predator in the list, It's already finished, painted, and ready to roll.  And I've used predators before to good enough effect that I want to stick with it. 

If you are going for a balanced mechanized list, make the tac squads 6 man las/plas, change the vets to an assault squad and give the chappy a jump pack. This is a much more balanced approach than the vets. However, if you are set on using vets (I love the models and I find myself using them more than is healthy as well.) then use them as a counter charge for a mostly static shooting force. This means dropping the flamer and probably the termie honors on the normal troops in the squad and staying with a power weapon and 2 fists. I think you have too many weapons in there as it is anyway. The normal vets don't get access to the armory, only the seargent. These changes bring them down to a healthier points value and retains their usefulness.

Stay with HB bolter razors until you learn what kind of people play around you and how you use your razors. The las/plas squads shouldn't be in their transports except for perhaps turn 6 to grab objectives. They need to be setting up in a firing position during deployment and firing away for most of the game. I also have a pred anihilator sitting on my shelf, but it never gets used in a 1k list because it is just too much of a target. In my 1.5k and 2k lists, it compliments my vindies quite nicely.

The largest problem with your list is the confused weapon choices in the tac squads. There are several types of acceptable tac squads.
1) 6 man las/plas - I don't need to say anything about this one. It's just amazing.
2) Simulated combat squads - This method uses a 5 man lascannon tac squad and a 5 man powerfist and meltagun squad in a razor in an effort to effect the strategy of the dark angels codex. I find this setup pretty bad, but it's used to some effect with suicide tank hunting.
3) Rhino Rapid Fire Goodness - This is a 10 man squad with a fist and either a meltagun or a plasma gun (or 2 of the selected special weapon using traits) mounted in a rhino or on foot. These squads spend most of the gaming going toe to toe with the enemy either by charging across the field on foot or being dumped near the enemy squad by their rhino and rapid-firing. This set-up is also quite effective in drop pods. The wargear on the sarge is debatable depending on the purpose of the squad, but you really can't go wrong with a fist. I personally use a vet with power weapon and plasma pistol for anti-infantry hunting.
4) Anti-infantry - Very similar to the above squad but replacing the other weapons with flamers. I also give this squad frags so they can root out infantry in terain. A normal power weapon is much more viable here but a fist adds versitility to the squad so that it can take out vehicles if absolutely nessessary.

The ideas behind these choices are quite simple. Either a squad moves for most of the game or it sits and shoots for most of the game. They only type of heavy I would EVER take in a moving squad is a heavy bolter so that, against assault armies, you can sit back and shoot and still be somewhat viable. The plasma cannon isn't a terrible weapon, but it should be in a 6 man dedicated anti-infantry shooting squad with a plasma gun to back it up. Unless you are really hurting for points, the place of the missle launcher is in a dev squad. A heavy bolter dev squad isn't a bad idea at all either.

Even in a generalized force, each unit must specialize to its given task. Mixed units, such as the ones you have above, just end up wasting points and being less effective on the table.

Final note: If you do end up using 6man las/plas squads, do everything in your power to fit a captain or master in there for the leadership. You don't want to put veteran seargents in las/plas squads as it is a waste of points for the most part but they will need the leadership. Kit out the commander with a storm bolter, and put him behind terain or in one of your shooting squads to keep him safe.

Sorry for the essay. Good luck with the list.

Oh, don't be sorry for spending this much time to help out with my list ^_^;  I really appreciate the serious input here. 

I do think I am getting sucked in by the Veteran models.  Which could hurt me on the table...I just envisioned them more than I envisioned having an assault squad.  Your advice to use as a counter-charge unit is pretty much spot on for what I saw them for. 

I planned on staying with HB's for the razors because, well, I love the gun.  It's hard to go wrong with it.

A vindi is in the future of this list as I add to it.  Just waiting on the kit to come out >.>..Will probably throw him and this list into 1500 at that point.

So possibly what I'm looking at is one Las/Plas and one Plas/Plas.  Dropping the Flamer from the Vets, I'm not certain about dropping termie honors though, that extra attack just seems worth it with all the weapons the squad can bring to the line.  And yeah, the flamer was the kicker for that squad, it's what put it over it's limit >.>...gotta pay more attention next time.  2 Fists for the squad seems like an Idea I can definitely get behind as well. 

Alrighty I'll go review what I've got here and see what comes up.  More in a bit.

<table width="200" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1" border="0" align="" summary=""> <tbody> <tr> <td>HQ
Master Commander
Power Weapon
Storm Bolter</td> <td>95</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Elites
Veteran Squad (5)
Veteran Sergeant
Power Weapon
Power Weapon (squad)
Power Fist (squad)
Razorback
Smoke Launchers
Extra Armor
</td> <td>183</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Troops
Tactical Squad (6)
Lascannon
Plasmagun
Razorback
Smoke Launchers
Extra Armor</td> <td>193</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Tactical Squad (6)
Plasma Cannon
Plasmagun
Razorback
Smoke Launchers
Extra Armor</td> <td>198</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Heavy Support
Predator Annihilator
Lascannon Sponsons
Smoke Launchers
Extra Armor</td> <td>153</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vindicator
Smoke Launchers</td> <td>128
</td> </tr> </tbody> </table> Points left: 50
Another draft for folks to pick over.  So what should those leftover 50 points go towards?  Or is this list any better than before?

edit: I thought I had points for a vindi...apparently not..re-checking what I had worked out.. >.>

edit 2: ok yeah, I had the points.  I just forgot to update the points costs on my roster >.>...

Very nice improvements. This list definatly has the beginnings of a solid mech list. I'd do one of the following with your last 50 points:

Option A:
Power of the Machine Spirit on the Vindy
1 Move Veteran for Vet Squad

Option B:
Power of the Macine Spirit on the Vindy
2 Pintle-Mounted Storm Bolters

Either would be fine. Depends on how you like to run your razors really. Not having PotMS on Vindies is a somewhat gimpy, so that's why both of my options have it.

My vote goes for option "A." Having an extra member of your Veteran Squad will mean that they'll have so actual staying power, and sill no longer have to fear even the lowly rapid-firing flashlight - not that guardsmen should EVER get that close to this squad, assuming you're planning on using them for counter-charge.

I'd also recommend swapping the Storm Bolter on your Master for Melta Bombs and a Bolt Pistol. the PoMS + Veteran should still leave you around 2 points, so the extra point for the Bolt Pistol will be helpful - you'll eke out an extra attack from your commander, and you'll be more threatening against armor that strays too close.

Otherwise, this list looks good. I really like your fluff entry in the P&M Blog section - I'm looking forward to some painting pics!

CK

PotMS did seem like the obvious quick point fix.  and 2 more guns can't hurt at all.  Sounds like it's all coming together. ^_^

Any other thoughts on the list so far? 

Or other ideas for the 50 points?  I'm all ears people ^_^;

<table width="200" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1" border="0" align="" summary=""> <tbody> <tr> <td>HQ
Master Commander
</td> <td align="right">95</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Elites
Veteran Squad (5)
Razorback
</td> <td align="right">183</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Troops
Tactical Squad (6)
Razorback
</td> <td align="right">203</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Tactical Squad (6)
Razorback
</td> <td align="right">208</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Heavy Support
Predator Annihilator
</td> <td align="right">153</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vindicator
</td> <td align="right">158
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Total</td> <td> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
I think I like it.