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Hey. im thinking about how i could improve my tau vs Blood Angles and Chaos. with the BA i allways get cought by the jetpack tropps.
i would like to play mechanised mobile tau.

are sniperdrone teams of any use ? i like them and thought to kill/pin the jetpacks if they have to bridge open ground for a turn, but they are quite static, and with dante mw 10 on all troops the pinning ability is of nearly no use, at least not reliable even with markers.the plan didnt work so far. would you say a 3rd hammerhead would be better ?

what about the troop carriers ? i use one with scouts atm, and 2*6 firewarrriors on foot. im thinking about buying 2 fishes for the 2 firewarrior sqauds and upgrade theire size to 12 - what weapons would you use ? i like the 18´ pinning assault 1 at first glace, but 18´ is just the range the jetpacks need to chop me down in theire next turn. on the other hand the 30´ heavy 1 rifles would have a problem with loading/unloading them into fishes. would you use more then 1 scout team ? it would be nice if you could drop a few line about how to maneuver with firewarrios in fishes in general.

i have 3 piranhas and thought they would fit to a mobile army for style reasons - are they useable ? would you set up the squad with 1,2 or 3  of them ?

vespids - again the problem with the short range and close combat in the next turn if they do not annihilate the target in one turn. in principle i like the guys. very fast, jump in cover reroll and 5/3+ 12´ weapons sound great to kick MEQ. here im thinking about my fast attack slots. scouts, vespids or piranha ? and how many of each ? at i use 1 scouts and 1 vespide squad and have 3 unassambled piranhas.

xv8 - plasma and rockets and can fire all its weapons in the same turn - i mostly use them as drop troops to drop on his table edge in turn 2 or 3 when his jetspacks are allready over at my side to kill shooty MEQ teams. i think this can stay as it is. im using 1 hq and 1*3 als elite atm. 3er pack to make more use of the markers - also its risky to get the whole team into cc as result to a bad drop - scout fish - uhm .. ja, sometimes, risky. how would you balace hammerhead, fish with troops and xv8 in number ? i thought about a 2nd 3 man sx8 plasma,rockets team. im also thinking about using a sencon one as hq - bf 5 and not shootable in most castes for 98 points ... how would you compare this unit to 62 pts elite suit ? i think the bf and the independet charakter model is well worth it and i should use 2 hqs instead of 1 and elite.

xv 88 - i got 2, but there where not many games, where they did kill anything that would make up theire points, as the enemy isnt using tanks against my army, in fear of the 10/1+ guns and they can not cover the whole table with theire line of sight and they are deployed as heavy support, they allways any game end up seeing only infantrie with jumpacks closing in. in that case the ability to move d6´ isnt much relevant anyhow i think. i like to stand and shoot everything out the get the jetpacks down bevor they get in contact. - if at all. im not very satisfied with xv88 - would like to play more mobile

thanks for your time and advice!

I'm no Tau player, but the answer to this is the same for all armies: field them in as small a unit as your FoC slots will allow. It is always better to have three units of 1 than one unit of 3. Always.

I assume you're aware that the fusion blaster is much better on them than the burst cannon, which is better bought elsewhere.



From what I've seen of other people's attempts to use Vespids, they rarely make their points back or accomplish a function that would justify this failure. They just don't have the raw firepower to make their one turn of shooting worthwhile. I would drop them in order to be able to field two units of 1 Piranha.

Can't help you with the rest, sorry.

I played a Tau player in the Chicago GT and it was the first time I got owned by Tau.  I played a mechanized shooty space marine list with a healthy mix of heavy bolters and lascannons.  He scored 77 out of 100 battle points for the weekend.  I have always been interested in playing a Tau army ever since their codex came and recently jumped at an opportunity to purchase an army from a tau player.  I am going mech style with crisis fire team battlesuits and warfish.  I'll give you some feedback about the GT tau players list and what it did against my army, hopefully it will be of some benefit/guidance.

"are sniperdrone teams of any use ?"

• he had two teams of three, they were on a hill in the center of the battlefield near his table edge.  The stealth field generator protected them from shooting until the middle rounds when I got some razorbacks into range to shoot them.  Before I got there, they did damage to my squads.  I don't recall being pinned (I had a captain), but those six Str 6 AP 3 shots for 3 rounds sure took their toll on my exposed squads.  Also, the two markerlights assisted his hammerhead and broadside teams.
• I don't have any in my list, but I am seriously considering them over one of my ion cannon heads

"what about the troop carriers ?"

• He had two 12 man pulse rifles in fish and two on foot.  These didn't really give me a hard time, but the fiswh of fury tactics are sound and mobility is always a good thing.
• I have four 10 man rifle squads in warfish and I love them.
• He did not have a pathfinder team
• I have one and I will keep it in my army.  The scout move alone is choice.  It allows you to get into the enemy deployment zone on a flank turn 1 and/or capture objectives.

"i have 3 piranhas and thought they would fit to a mobile army for style reasons - are they useable ? "

• He did not have any piranhas.
• I was going to get some for my army, but now I am rethinking the purchase.  I agree that they should be used in one vehicle squads, similar to LS tornadoes in any marine army.  They just seem awfully fragile and need to be too close to be effective with the fusion blaster, which is the weapon of choice for the unit.  Right now I would discourage their use.  I would prefer a pathfinder team and deepstriking gundrones  over the piranha, but I have not played enough to make that a solid call.  It is just my opinion based on theory right now.

"here im thinking about my fast attack slots. scouts, vespids or piranha ?"

• He did not use vespids, and neither would I for the reasons you mentioned.  Stay away from them.
• The only use for them would be to sit behind some terrain where you had your broadsides and jump out to get some shooting on a squad about to assault them.

"xv8 - plasma and rockets and can fire all its weapons in the same turn "

• Get as many of these as you can (fire caste), they are absolutely the bread and butter of an effective tau list IMO.  Squads of two leave a smaller blueprint, but I am going to run three squads of 3 and two leaders.  I am seriously considering getting bodyguard also, but it allows the enemy to target them.  The jump infantry rule, deepstrike ability, moving in the assault phase annoits these as the mainstay versus MEQ
• He had three squads of two and two leaders.  I was able to knock out 2 squads and one leader on a flank, but it cost me 2 tac squads, 2 razorbacks, my captain and a LS tornado. 
• plasma gun and missile pod are the appropriate, and highly effective set-up for MEQ.

"xv 88 - i got 2"

• He had a squad of two with 5 shield drones and target lock.  I never got through the shield drones.  He made some good dice rolls, but that set-up is still tough to beat and worth the points IMO.
• I have two, and I feel they are more effective than a hammerhead.  I use the ASS, movement is always effective, even if it is only 6".  I do recognize that using them as a static firebase is just as good, but sometimes terrain and targets of opportunity require the movement, so why not have it.  You can always sit there and fire anyway.

First off, a great place to start looking is this forum. http://www.advancedtautactica.com/
They use to have a monster tactic that explained all the cool tricks you can use but a quick glance didnt find you a link.
Ill try to give you the basic points as I play a mech tau army and love it.

HQ
You have two options.
Etherial: I dont use one, ever. Just dont like it. Another mech tau guy in my area swears by the etherial and takes him in every game. Since your army is very poor in the leadership department he is very useful in keeping guys on the table, if you can protect him. Hanging with broadsides is his best location.

The crisis commander. Always take the 75 pt -o. Trust me on this. The BS 5 and extra wound will save you some day. Give the dude the same gear as whatever crisis squad he will be hanging with so he can work with them. Most people take plasma and TL missiles for commanders.

Elites
Crisis suits.
The bread and butter of the tau army. No-one else has them or anything like them.
They shoot amazingly well for bs3 guys and they are hard as hell to kill with the JSJ moves.
With the fireknife combination (plasma, missile pod) they can kill almost anything in the game and will down a wave serpent/elite carnifex every other turn)
They have a few problems. Low leadership usually means they book it the first time someone manages to kill one. The small squads means every death = leadership check. These two can be solved by joining a leadership 10 commander to the squad.
They are very much an all your eggs in one (or up to 3) basket unit. They must be protected at all costs.

Stealth suits.
I personally love stealth suits and almost always take a squad. They lose in compition to crisis suits though as the stealth cant handle vehicles. They are just as annoying to kill as crisis, if not more from the stealth field and they will whittle squads down very quickly. They always belong on a flank.

Troops,
Kroot.
Our lovable little birds are there simply to stand in the way. They absorve charges, die, and leave the charges in rapid fire range of the crisis plasma. Make sure people cant consilidate from squad to squad. Other than this they dont do anything well but what can you expect from 7 pts.

Firewarriors.
Mech tau armies generally have firewarriors in a devilfish. This is because pt for pt the fish is worth its weight in gold while the firewarriors are worth nothing. They are prety poor as far as infantry come. If you disagree then try a game of 50 fire warriors vs 40 marines (equal points). The marines win every time.
Even with the fish of fury tactic they still are poor. They are primarily used as cleanup and disposable units.
The fish on the other hand deserves its own post.

Devilfish
This is the pride and joy of mech tau. It is there to pump out 7 shots a turn, live (cause all anti tank fire goes into the hammer heads) and get in the way. A wall of devilfish is wide and takes forever to go arround. This is probabally the best defence your crisis suits have from approaching assult troops you dont have time to shoot. Stick the fish in their way and make them go arround. Next turn, do it again.

Fast,
Usually I dont use any fast attach choices because of point restrictions.
Vespids.
Great at killing off approaching assult squads and isolated las plas squads. Thats about it. Generally other units (crisis suits) do the same job better. Vespids are the second fastest unit in the army though. I have tried a few times to use really small squads as cheep scoring units and have liked the results.

Piranas.
Good with either melta or burst. They do the same thing the fish do. They get in the way. Some people think they are weak but say that after you try to down 8 armor 11 vehicles...They usually last.

Gun drones.
Other than min squads deep striking to shoot rear armor I havent really used these guys. Was fun with the min squads though.

Pathfinders. Still experimenting. I like the results. If you take one squad, take two.

Heavy,
Sniper guys.
Never use them myself. The other choices are so much better.

Broadsides.
Using a full squad with stabilers and 2x shield drones they are suprisingly hard to kill as they outrange everything and have two shilds for the odd las cannon that looks at them. I usually pass these guys up for more of the other tank.

Hammerheads.
These are the bane of many people. Armor 13 skimmers are simply a pain to down. They are great at expanding your skimmer wall (see fish) and killing anything. If you dont have any broadsides you need two railheads. If you do have broadsides you can get away with the MEQ killing ion cannon. Will make everyone cry. I swear by the SMS missiles on all my vehicles because it helps them so much.


Tactics.
Mech tau are the king of mobile fire. They are very good at isolating a couple targets and mulching them. They are also good at using terrain to posdition themselves so the guys that arent getting mulched cant do anything.
The army is very fluid and goes anywhere. It leaves most targets with little in terms of places to hid.

Mech tau are also very very good at tank busting. With 5+ units that are capable of killing tanks with either quantity or quality of shots not much lasts. My personal record is two falcons and 3 serpents in one turn (fish got one falcon from behind).

The biggest problems that tau face are large shooty armies. Assult armies, even hoard assult armies, can be stoped cold by a well executed skimmer wall but the really large shooty armies require creative use of terrain to beat.

Enjoy for now.

Just one thing:

Why even bother TLing a weapon that is BS5? Is there a requirement that you fill all hardpoints or something, and there's nothing better to take? I'm not familiar with the nitty gritty of 4th ed Tau, so please enlighten me.

One odd thing I have encountered was using gun drone deep strikers as assault units to tie up shooty troops. It worked pretty well, though they were only fighting Sisters. Still, it took 2-3 turns to finish them all off with 11 girl units, so I could see them being pretty good fodder to tie up dakka-fex's or the like.

No, there really isn't any reason to TL the missles. You need a multi-tracker on the suit so you can fire two weapons anyway, and I rarely see anyone with TL missles on their commanders.

Also, I completely disagree with the statement that firewarriors are near worthless. Rapid firing str 5 weapons is a sight to behold. Just because you can match up something with equal points from another army and shoot at them and win doesn't mean that they are worthless. The place of a fire warrior is in his transport or right behind his transport, rapid-firing.

My thoughts on tau.

HQ:

Never touched an ethereal, never wanted to. Escalation and the price of failure make it not worth it.

Personally i'd always go with a shas'el. Take a targeting array and you have your BS5 HQ which is mandatory. I've always used one armed with missile pods/plasma and use a second one with either plasma/fusion or more recently, plasma/CIB. Either way is good. I tried using the shas'o with plasma/missiles/AFP (because it was easiest to abuse its power with IC status - but it sucks).

Elites:

Always take three. Generally i use two squads of crisis and then a unit of stealths. The suits are generally the same, a team leader with targeting array, plasma/missiles and hten a normal suit with plasma/missiles. The 15pts spent on a targeting array is so worth it IMO. The only other suits that i see being worth it dual missile pods as they're cheap and bring some falcon hunting to boot (always important). I used to add shield drones to the unit, i just fail the saves and then my LD test so i just try and bring more guns and hide better. (important point there as 3 squads of crisis and HQ can be quite hard to hide at times so thats why i take stealths).

The stealths i've really experimented with. At first i used 3 stealths with a gun drone each, which i think is statistically the most effective set out but i found i rolled so many 3's to hit, the targeting array upgrade was better for me. So now i run four stealths each with a targeting array. And its awesome. Really is.


Troops:

Originally i used two squads of 8 firewarriors in a warfish. It worked well but i've found better success with two squads of kroot and only one squad of firewarriors in a warfish. Kroot are useful in so many ways. Screening broadsides, flanking enemy, just generally being annoying, etc. And they're only 70pts so cheap as chips. Just be careful they're not used as a leap frog for assault units into your suits (which i believe are the most important units in your army and will do the most killing) - this is the reason i dislike foot FWs so much. Plus another skimmer is great to abuse IC status and skimmer block assaullt units.

Fast attack:

I've used piranhas. Not really sure on them. In 1500pts i cant fit them in (rather take kroot), at higher points, i do. Generally ive found they die to the first shots and the fusion blaster is useful for hunting down ICs and indirect ordnance. Other than that they're very meh.

Gun drones i've never had much luck with. Generally i used them as deepstriking behind tanks but my scatter rolls are always awful and i find stealths and mass SMS much better for bringing the S5 PAIN.

Heavy:

Yeah this is the stuff. From experience, broadsides are sweet as. A squad of two, incl. a team leader wwith 2 shield drones, complete with ASS is awesome at taking down tanks and being tough to shift. Probably the weak link in a defensive strategy though as they're slow and not a skimmer spo vulberable to assault. Still awesome and bring two more SMS platforms to the game.

Hammerheads are pretty sweet as well. Biggest problem is getting stunned though. Personally i take one with a railgun and one with an ion cannon (of course both with SMS). The ionhead is suprisingly cheap and takes down marines so easily and is better at hunting AV12 skimmers.

I've tried a sky ray. Whilst ok in making hte rest of the list shoot better, i found that all the targeting arrays i take neuter the exta bonuses a sky ray brought to the table. Plus the ionhead is cheaper.

NEver used sniper drones. The markerlights and rail rifles are ok but dont fit a mostly mech theme and they're non-scoring i think. Which sucks.

Posted By cypher on 10/01/2007 8:47 AM
firewarriors are worth nothing. They are prety poor as far as infantry come. If you disagree then try a game of 50 fire warriors vs 40 marines (equal points). The marines win every time.

NB 40 tac marines = 60 firewarriors (for equal points).

As long as you deploy to be 31" away at game start then the fire warrior will usually win. If the marines sit still then there is a no casualty draw, which is a far cry from 'win every time'.  If they advance, as they need to for a win, then they must undergo 2 volleys before they get to shoot. On the way in 1 squad on average will fail a morale check and be a turn late to get in shooting range. By the time the marines are shooting they have ~28 guys left, but probably less than that in range. By the end of turn 4 the 'average' position is something like 16 marines left to 50 fire warriors. You may be an eternal optimist but the marines are not going to recover from that 'every time', or even close.

I'm not claiming such a situation is a realistic assesment of a 'real' in game situation, but the simplistic scenario stated would in fact show firewarriors to be better than marines, at least in a defensive situation.

First off, the TL on the missile. It is just the most common thing. I always take it and it is usually worth it. Its cheep(6 pts i think) and will be used twice or more per game on average.

Fire warriors vs marines.
On average the marines will not be advancing from 31 inches away into a voly of fire.
There will be terrain, there will be places to advance...
Lets say the marines advance to 19 in away(they walk into cover one turn) and the fire warriors fire first.
6.6 marines die
Marines fire back.
7.4 fire warriors die.
They will trade fire like this until the marines are dead and most fire warriors die.
If you take leadership into account the marines are far more likely to stand (higher leadership and know no fear). So assume the fire warriors break and run first. Unless the fire warriors advanced off their lines that means on average they could easily run off the table and die taking extra casualties and swinging the ballance in favor of the marines.

This says nothing of what the mission is (missions require you to advance and then the marines will use cover to either assult the fire warriors or get the first shot, either of which means the marines win).

This also leaves out the fact that marines alway cary special weapons. Give each squad a heavy bolter and the marines come out way way on top even if you increase the size of the fire warriors.

Sure if you gear the situation so it favors the firewarriors in every respect they win. But so what.

I have played tau for years and never seen fire warriors do anything well.

"First off, the TL on the missile. It is just the most common thing. I always take it and it is usually worth it. Its cheep(6 pts i think) and will be used twice or more per game on average"

The 6 points are worth the upgrade, but is it worth it at the expense of the targeting array?  I would think having the missile pods AND plasma guns hitting on 3's is more cost effective.  Just asking, as I use the TA and find it worth every point.  I admit that I have not seen t-l m-pods in any GT/GD list I played against, so I could be talking out of my arse.  Are you from the camp that thinks the burst cannon/missile pod is a better MEQ killer than the plasmagun/missile pod, that would make your crisis config cheaper, allowing you to field more units, giving your list more guns.  Never a bad option, but I prefer the fireknife config.

Posted By cypher on 10/01/2007 2:28 PM
First off, the TL on the missile. It is just the most common thing. I always take it and it is usually worth it. Its cheep(6 pts i think) and will be used twice or more per game on average.

Fire warriors vs marines.
On average the marines will not be advancing from 31 inches away into a voly of fire.
There will be terrain, there will be places to advance...
Lets say the marines advance to 19 in away(they walk into cover one turn) and the fire warriors fire first.
6.6 marines die
Marines fire back.
7.4 fire warriors die.
They will trade fire like this until the marines are dead and most fire warriors die.
If you take leadership into account the marines are far more likely to stand (higher leadership and know no fear). So assume the fire warriors break and run first. Unless the fire warriors advanced off their lines that means on average they could easily run off the table and die taking extra casualties and swinging the ballance in favor of the marines.

This says nothing of what the mission is (missions require you to advance and then the marines will use cover to either assult the fire warriors or get the first shot, either of which means the marines win).

This also leaves out the fact that marines alway cary special weapons. Give each squad a heavy bolter and the marines come out way way on top even if you increase the size of the fire warriors.

Sure if you gear the situation so it favors the firewarriors in every respect they win. But so what.

I have played tau for years and never seen fire warriors do anything well.

I don't doubt most what you say (hence my discalimer at the end of my previous post), but that wasn't really the point, you claimed anyone disagreeing shoud try your simple scenario and see the marines win every time.

In that simple scenario the FW should win barring stupidity.
On average there is nothing you can do about having to advance 31" if the tau deploys that way (assuming 12" deploy zones).
If 60 FW cant find a squad or 2 of the 40 marines to shoot at for 3 turns then I'd say there is more than expected terrain (los blocking especially). 60 FW can cover a lot of fire lanes.
The higher ld is ld 8 to 7, not massively better, especially given that the FW can probably force 2 checks a turn whilst the marines are moving, for at least 2 turns. I accounted for the FW running straight of the table, by the time the marines are firing they are likely to cause 1 check in that turn with a ~30% chance of run of table as a result.
Of course you can add special weapons etc, but then you are no longer playing the simple scenario you told naysayers to try. In order to keep equal points you'd presumably add in extra tau stuff?

All I'm getting at is that your scenario isn't the sort of game you would normally play. Things that work in a real game don't happen in that situation. Your 40 marines of equal points to 60 FW don't have a commander providing ld10, or special/heavy weapons etc. hence what happens in a real game fails to happen, and you effectively end up pointing naysayers into a scenario which appears to disprove your own point.

O well, i guess we will disagree on that point. I have done it a few times. Marines always won even in that scenario that was biased in favor of the fire warriors. I guess i did fail to explain it well, i just hate fire warriors for anything but their ability to kill falcons (they succeede every time they get a rear shot!)

I only use the tl missiles on the BS 5 commander so he already hits on a 2+.
I dont TL the plasma because they missiles have twice the shots and in my experience usually ends up firing 2 more turns than the plasma unless terrain is really nice to you.
I dont put it on anyone else cause then you have to upgrade the guy to a sergeant equivilant to get the multi tracker and I dont think that is efficent enough.

In theory the burst cannons are better but I prefer to keep everything out of harms way.
Also, and perhaps more important, my crisis suits are the only thing in my army that kills termies. I need those plasma rifles.

alot of what has been said about tau is dead on

i play fully mechanised tau and they are the king of annoyance and VP denial.

i only have 11 models on the table for most of the game in an 1,850 point game untill turn 6 when the pathfinders and FWs get out of thier fish.

the tau's true strength is in mobile firepower, similar to the eldar but without the super CC units.

HQ-

always a crisis suited commander, you have to take him anyway so don't waste points on an etherial.

personally in larger games i take 2 with bodyguards. the shas'o s hit on 2s so give them 2 guns a shield generator and some hardwired gear.

the nice thing is the bodyguard also have access to the armory, so give them 1 twin linked weapon(i prefer the missle pod since i mostly send them tank hunting) and 1 other and them load them up on hardwired goodies.

TROOPS-

face it FW suck at almost everything. they have a big gun but no true heavy weapons and shoot like IG  and static tau(IE on foot) only end up dead.

unless your doing a  theme avoid kroot. thier shooting is just as bad, they aren't much better in CC,  they have worse armor

and most importantly they can't take a fish

ELITES-

theres a few interesting  units here stealths,crisis etc... my money is still on crisis suits for better weapons options and better range. it equals out to the same number of wounds as a stealth team but i find it performs better

HEAVIES-

sniper teams-can't move and shoot, can't hold table quarters, suck in CC.  i avoid them

broadsides-can be very effective  and a good mix for a crisis themed list. they are very slow so you have to try and keep them away from assaults as much as possible,

hammerheads-the overall best option

skyray-are you fighting aircraft? do you need mobile markerlights?

yes you can "front load" all  your damage in 1 turn but they are not as versatile as a HH and are specifically desinged to provide anti-aircraft fire.

 

FAST ATTACK-

vespid-do you really like to throw away your points? they are jump troops and they sound good with a S5 AP 3 gun....untill you realise they suck in CC the gun only has a 12" range and they have a 5+ save making them very good at being innefective.

pirahna-the only true "fast" vehicle the tau have. best used as extra tank hunters and last turn objective grabbers.

pathfinders-markerlights need i say more? oh yes and they come with a devilfish.

 

a note on tau vehicles-

tau vehciles are the game winner for this army just slightly ahead of crisis suits. they shoot better,survive better(with proper upgrades) and are the best CC unit in a tau force with the fletchette launcher upgrade.

remember to play to your strengths, stay moving, stay shooting and you should do well.

 

cypher:

How on earth does that make sense? Rerolling to hit with two BS 5 shots nets you 1 extra hit over 18 turns 3.6 turns (apparently basic math > me, as puree pointed out). Wow, great deal. Surely there is something better you can get.

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 10/02/2007 4:22 AM
cypher:

I only use the tl missiles on the BS 5 commander so he already hits on a 2+.

How on earth does that make sense? Rerolling to hit with two BS 5 shots nets you 1 extra hit over 18 turns. Wow, great deal. Surely there is something better you can get.

Thats some wonky maths.

18 turns at 2 shots a turn = 36 shots.

at BS5 average = 30 hits.

at BS5 T/L average = 35 hits.

so on averge = 5 extra hits.

 

 

 

Whoops, mea culpa.