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 Grimnarsmate wrote:
What's even more annoying is I've just spent over £150 on my tzeentch daemon army and they've just been hit for 6 with the nerf bat, which is why I might be exaggerating a bit.

Its ok man, sell em again or shelf em. I have first hand witnessed the turn around with several of my armies. My Necrons went from OP to crap with 5th ed.... then the new dex breathed major life back into the immortal robots. Same went with my slaanesh daemons, 4th ed Rending was even more vicious than it is now but with 5th my 150+ slaanesh daemon army sat on the shelf to slowly get fully painted and (for the most part) collect dust. I dont have the new dex in hand yet but from what I have read my sexy daemons will once again see light.

What I am saying is your investment may have been pre mature but in the long term you will likely be ahead of the game when another set of rule changes comes down the pipe if you just are patient.

EDIT:
Not saying slaanesh were horrible in 5th... there were just much better choices as far as daemons were concerned.

Weird... auto double post.

I did the same, The tracking number is FedEx

unfortunately my tracking number shows it left Memphis thursday morning and has had no activity since :(

 Grimnarsmate wrote:
Well, we have become a horde army with good CC, but if we lose combat we start to fold. Another build is psychic tzeentch. A sixth of the shooting is shut down before you start to crunch the numbers, then any eldar or space wolves will shut a lot of what's left down. plus one bad warpstorm roll could leave your army with almost no save! What's even more annoying is I've just spent over £150 on my tzeentch daemon army and they've just been hit for 6 with the nerf bat, which is why I might be exaggerating a bit.

Heralds prevent instability, do they not? You still have issues of people sniping them out (and their crummy invulnerable saves will not hold up well) but it's not the most terrible situation - at least now you can pull off shenanigans like S9 Horrors depending on the loci you choose.

The psychic shooting is going to be a huge problem, especially if your meta already features lots of allied Farseers/Eldrad or Rune Priests. Deny the Witch isn't exactly the most reliable defense anyways (even shooting at psyker units like Grey Knights). It is a big problem though, no one is going to deny that - and is a signficant 'balance' factor for Tzeentch shooty lists. However, at least based on my reading you could do the whole "1 Horror peeking out channeling the entire units psychic attacks per turn" which is a bit but runes of warding and Space Wolves are already

Tzeentch screamers got nerfed pretty bad, but they may need a FAQ regarding trading attacks for warp jaws because right now they get very little advantage for charging at stuff if they have to trade 4 attacks for 1 jaw. Flamers are also nerfed to hell considering their cost ($ and points) so maybe we can get a FAQ once sales of those models grinds to a halt. But otherwise they are not terrible and still useful in some cases considering their mobility and the price you would pay for jump or jet bike troops of similar capabilities.

Still, like I've said before, I don't understand the excitement for daemons as primary detachment. They are a finesse army (which is code for "underpowered") with more units that are not total garbage like the old codex, but almost no standout units either (and no, you're probably not going to be able to claim Aegis cover for your Nurgle Soulgrinders unless you are modeling for advantage).

Unfortunately, heralds do not prevent instability.

Even worse, if your herald and his unit lose combat and you roll a double 6.. boom both gone.

 Shandara wrote:
Unfortunately, heralds do not prevent instability.

Even worse, if your herald and his unit lose combat and you roll a double 6.. boom both gone.

*Honest Trailers Voice on*

Because you weren't just gak enough, you can lose 200 points of models for taking one wound. Seriously, I'm not even joking, Phil must have been really high at the time.

At the moment if I do end up taking daemons it'll probaly be a 20 daemmonette squad with a herald with the leadership test power, allied to my guard army w/ a psyker battle squad with a telekenises primaris.

Or you could have one guy survive and get the whole squad back. That's daemons for you.

 pretre wrote:
Or you could have one guy survive and get the whole squad back. That's daemons for you.

In all respects, this doesn't change the fact that Daemons have a massive hurdle in the form of their own special rules. The chance that I'll gain my models back doesn't mean I've got a chart which will cause damage to my own army, randomised wargear and incredibly poor saves.

6+ for a Juggernaut? Jesus Christ they better have a 3++.....

 Shandara wrote:
Unfortunately, heralds do not prevent instability.

Even worse, if your herald and his unit lose combat and you roll a double 6.. boom both gone.

Yes but,

If your herald and his unit lose combat and you roll a double 1.. Boom squad at full strength again

considering Daemons leadership, I have not put the math to it but it seems to me you are more likely to get a positive result (pass leadership OR return wounds) than you are to get a negative one ( fail leadership or lose all) The full return or full wipe have the same chance, while you will be passing leadership more often than not. Unless you lose by 3+ wounds which CAN happen but does not seem highly likely. Considering you do not do something tactically stupid with them.

Has the leadership changed? I havent seen anything about it.

Edit: never mind

 Grimnarsmate wrote:
Has the leadership changed? I havent seen anything about it.

Yes, most basic units are LD7.

Which is an instant loss is most forms of combat.

Down across the board. HQ 8 or 9, everyone else is 7, except Furies which are 2 cause... well... who knows.

 blood reaper wrote:
The chance that I'll gain my models back doesn't mean I've got a chart which will cause damage to my own army, randomised wargear and incredibly poor saves.

The chart also potentially does damage to every unit in the enemy army while only doing damage to some units in your army. The Randomized Wargear all allow you to pick a primaris and I haven't seen the saves.

Four Tzeentch Lvl2 psyker Heralds following around my CSM forces handing out Prescience like candy looks hard to resist That alone is pretty sweet.

Well, better go big, or go home.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And hope for no double 6s

 pretre wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
The chance that I'll gain my models back doesn't mean I've got a chart which will cause damage to my own army, randomised wargear and incredibly poor saves.

The chart also potentially does damage to every unit in the enemy army while only doing damage to some units in your army. The Randomized Wargear all allow you to pick a primaris and I haven't seen the saves.

At the same rate it will damage an Undivided army. It's a poor design choice, and should really only apply to rolls of 1 or 2 on a D6 chart. Yes, it allows you to pick a Primaris weapon, but it's still a big disadvantage when other armies can pick their wargear. Most of the saves are 5++, while most Khorne units have a 6+ 5++.

TzeentchNet wrote:
Four Tzeentch Lvl2 psyker Heralds following around my CSM forces handing out Prescience like candy looks hard to resist That alone is pretty sweet.

You can only stack the 4 for 1 if Daemons is your Primary Detachment.

 blood reaper wrote:
At the same rate it will damage an Undivided army. It's a poor design choice, and should really only apply to rolls of 1 or 2 on a D6 chart.

Wrong.

No matter the composition of your 'undivided army', less than 100% of the models in it are of one god (by definition). While your opponent always has 100% of the models in his army consisting of 'enemy' models to you. You always potentially hurt more in your opponent's army than in yours unless you have a mono god army and roll the one that hurts your god. Even then, there are 3 rolls that don't hurt your army and hurt your opponent.

Still not sure what the 6+ normal armour save is supposed to do, though.

You can only stack the 4 for 1 if Daemons is your Primary Detachment.

How does that work. Do you go back to the 2 for 1 if they are allies?

 Shandara wrote:
Still not sure what the 6+ normal armour save is supposed to do, though.

Allow you to save against the couple of attacks that disallow invlun saves I guess.

 Shandara wrote:
Still not sure what the 6+ normal armour save is supposed to do, though.

Help if your invul gets taken away for some reason...

TzeentchNet wrote:

You can only stack the 4 for 1 if Daemons is your Primary Detachment.

How does that work. Do you go back to the 2 for 1 if they are allies?

Based on my reading, if they're allies you get 1 HQ, be it Herald, Greater Daemon, or Daemon Prince. Choose wisely!

 pretre wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
Still not sure what the 6+ normal armour save is supposed to do, though.

Help if your invul gets taken away for some reason...

Which will probably also taken away, being that most weapons are AP5, and even at negative AP it's a 1 in 6 chance.

Can someone remind me why Daemons have the survival rate of a Grot?

Chances of something that takes away invuls and normal armor saves? Pretty low. Keep grinding though.

 blood reaper wrote:
Can someone remind me why Daemons have the survival rate of a Grot?

Why is a 9 pt daemon infinitely more survivable than a Hive Tyrant against krak missiles?

Let's tone down the hyperbole; it's not doing much for the conversation.

Another Allied question:

Any chance CD bringing Divination to CSM lists will result in more people using the Hades Autocannon on the Helldrake instead of the blaeflamer? Four twin-linked S8 shots at BS 3 is not bad at all in dealing with enemy flyers, if you can keep your drake in range to get the blessing.

That's a lot of IFs when it is good the way it is.

Prescience on Forgefiends would seem to be easier to accomplish if you wanted to go the machine-buffing route.