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I'm wondering because my Eternal Guard get a nice amount of attacks,
but their strength 3 means that they'll fail to wound or their targets will have
too high a save to get the necessary wounds to get a good combat
resolution. six wide would net me 3 more attacks (2 in front, 1 in the
second rank).

Or am I better off fielding a full block?

20 Eternal Guard (+3 ranks)

or

24 Eternal Guard (+3 ranks)

or

18 Eternal Guard (+2 Ranks + I don't have to buy and paint more models)

Well if its CR that you're worried about, then put a BSB in your unit.  You could even give your EG a War banner.

3 ranks, outnumber, BSB is +5 CR , and with a Noble the EG are stubborn with a Ld Reroll, so that's a pretty good unit.

You could go 6 wide, but its 24 vs 20 EG, so more points.  I guess the question is, what are you going to do with the unit?  If you use it as an anvil unit, then 20 EG should be fine.  3 more hits would be nice, but with a Noble in the unit, you'll get an extra hit right there. 

Sorry if this wasn't very helpful.  What's the rest of your army like?

-Jmz

Certainly it is.

Better still, metagame 20 EG 5 x 4 against 21 EG 7 x 3.  Assume the standards BSB, etc. 5x4 has 10 attacks charging, +1CR for ranks, 7x3 has 14 attacks charging.  If the extra attacks get at least one more casualty, you are ahead.  Receiving a charge, its 15 vs 21 attacks, less losses.

A unit of 20 with a BSB or character has 21 models so 5x4+1 or 6x3+3 or 7x3 are al possibilities.

Huh? I couldn't follow you AMA.

OK, here are some EG break downs. Assume the EG units charge.

A 5x4 EG block, with full command is 270 pts. Add a Noble with BSB and its 90 more. Thats 11 attacks from EG and 3 from noble, so 14 attacks. Against WS 4 T 4 opponents, 10 will hit, 3-4 will wound, which amounts to about 2 kills with a 4+ armor save. That gives you a CR of 7. You opponent has to kill 6 EG (+1 Banner) to equal you. Since you killed 2 already, probably not going to happen.

A 6x3 block (with two extra) will will have 16 attacks (this includes the Noble). 11 will hit; 4, maybe 5 will wound and 2, maybe 3 will die. Your starting CR is now 4 (you have 1 less rank), so your final CR is 7. Now this is nice, but doesn't get you anything more really, and you now have a wider front, which means less mobility.

A 6x4 block costs 318 points (+90 for the Noble). Now your starting CR is 5 and you get 16 attacks like 6x3. So you have a final CR of 8 instead of 7. But that cost you an additional 48 points, which are 4 dryads. Thats over 400 points in one unit.

Is it worth it? To me, no. A 20 man block is solid, it'll take a beating and last a long time. Bigger blocks are useless in small games. You'll get out-flanked.

So you could run 6 wide, but I don't think you get anything extra for the points.

-Jmz

My point was that a unit if 20 with a character, 21 models, can deploy as

5 x 4 + 1 model extra

6 x 3 + 3 models extra

7 x 3.

Metagame these units against your usual opponents.  I think it will be found that unless facing wall-to-wall ranked units, the 7 x 3 will be most effective.

Depends on what you are likely to face. If you can play against other infantry (other elves and skaven match your speed and ogre sized units beat you by 1 inch) you should be getting the charge off and will be much advantaged by the extra man.

However if heaps of cav or you can't redirect them then you may end up struggling due to the reduced combat res/ extra cost to fill said combat res.

T4, armoured troops such as suarus excel at 6 wide however they can take quite a few hits before their masses of attacks come back. Chaos warriors are in a similar boat (albiet a more expensive, skull lined one).

Posted By Waaagh_Gonads on 10/08/2007 1:48 AM
T4, armoured troops such as suarus excel at 6 wide however they can take quite a few hits before their masses of attacks come back. Chaos warriors are in a similar boat (albiet a more expensive, skull lined one).

I'm glad you said that, because I was wondering.  I was thinking that 12 Saurus with spears would be useful 6x2 for only 168 points, not in the middle but on one side.

Pike often go six wide as well, as standard-sized pike formations tend to be 24 or 28 or 30 strong... 6 x 4 or 7 x 4 or 6 x 5. That's a lot of Pike attacks.

Everything counts in large numbers.

"Everything counts in large amounts?"

Posted By malfred on 10/29/2007 6:05 PM
"Everything counts in large amounts?"

Like trans-fats?

Acctually on the topic of HEs spearmen would be great 6 wide due to the drop in points.

19 attacks when charged striking first is that little bit better than 16.

I fully agree with taking units of 21. I do so for my High elf spearmen. Its very efficient, every elf potentially fights, none are wasted, and the Cr you lose by not having a fourth rank you make up by outnumbering the standard block of 20.

6x3 is not so good as it comes to the inferior 18, and I dont recommend having odd minitures on a fourth row. Dont add three extra add at least five, get the fourth rank and a decent outrnumber. 24 is good and allowing fro what you are investing already not much extra.

Big question is what are you backing up this block with, is it the only tranked up block/resilient unit in your army. Will you have treemen, treekin or other Eternal Guard to support, alone one block in an MSU list isnt going to be more than a liability.

6 wide for a HE spear block makes it tougher to get more elite units in to frontal combat, though. Also, is 3 more S3 attacks worth the 4 S5 attacks you could buy by picking up 2 more swordmasters or 1 more dragon prince or 2 S6 white lions? Many things to consider....

6-7 wide works when you want to maximize frontage for attacks, but are not concerned about rank bonus. For example, swordmasters 6-7 wide throw between 12 and 15 (depending on size and champ) s5 attacks before anything else. Super good, and generally enough to win combats without +3 rank bonus. Perfect hammer. Spearmen, OTOH depend much more on static CR because S3 isn't nearly as deadly (though 5 wide still gets 15 S3 attacks first when charged). Thus, keeping them more narrow as an anvil unit seems to work very well.

So, it depends on how you plan to use your EG. Holding block? Flanker? Aggressive center?

I have seen a local player use a huge EG block 7 wide and 5 deep with a lord with spite of hit me on 6s in challenge, terror spite and BSB. They also cause fear and have MR (banner maybe?). It's a nasty, albeit very expensive block. Champ challenges for overkill (since you need 6s to tag him) while the unit causes damage. If they win, they are likely to outnumber and get autobreak. Supported by fast WE cav, they are pretty brutal. Well, at least until swordmasters get into them

Magic resistance would be the 100 pt. Ariel's Banner, I believe.

Having the BSB for stubborn and +1CR is good, but i wouldnt give him any magic banner, but instead tool him up to survive or fight melee. Amaranthine Brooch looks like the best choice. Though Armour of the Fey and Spites could be a good combination