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Gesit and I got a friendly game of 40k at 1500 his wych cult army (mega wych archon with 9 wyches in raider) 3 wych raiders (10 figures inside the usual suspect 2 blaster 1sucubus with agonizer haywyre and plasma grenades) and two ravagers (of course three thrice damn destructors and a horror fex )

my guys consisted in a heroic senior officer trade mark itrem, power fist and bolt pisto, medic standard bearer, 2 flamers and a commisssar 2 squads of 9 stormtroopers with 2 meltas, vet sgt with power weapon and 3 commisar with carapace power weapon and boltpistol and two power fist and 3 grenadiers squads 9 guys with plasma vet sgt power weapon and assault squad with 2 metlas and a demolition and 7 sentinels 2with lc and 5 with ac

my doctrines of course

strom troopers

grenadiers

droptroopers

carapace armor

special weapons squads

just deployed the grenadiers and 3 sentinels wych cult got first turn blow up one sentinel and destroy the other two ac, two squads of grenadiers open rapid fire on one wych squad and it seems that the emperor and the machine god left the grenadiers since only five xenos fell to the fusilade. the mauled squad assaulted one of the grenadier squad assisted with other wych squad. the outcome one squad of grenadiers was killed to man and the other imperial survivors had to whitstand 15 wyches now. the last grenadier squad got shot by a ravager and was reduced in half . a second unit of sentinels, the command squad and a storm trooper squad made planet fall around where they intended.... the command squad scatter and got out of range of anythig. the newly arrived opened fire on the raider carrying a squad... now I get the nickname flying coffins 8 wyches were killed when the raider was destroyed. the sentinels open fire on the archon's raider and 5 more wyches perish at the crash. the 15 wyches easily defeated the guardsmen in hand to hand combat. Ravagers eat up the newly arrived sentinels and on the other side the two squads assaulted the storm troopers again all were wiped out in close combat, the last sentinel squad arrive attacking the ravager and failed to hit with two ac and a lc command squad open fire with two flamers and 3 bolt pistols killing just 2 wyches the emperor definitevly left us to die alone on the other side the last strom trooper squad arrived and decimet the archons squad making her and another wych to turn tail and flee from the board and the assault squad wiped out the small wych squad.  At this poitn there was 1 wych squad of 8 1 wyches, a squad with 2 wyches, 1 ravager and 2 raiders agaisnt a command squad, a 4 man storm trooper squad, an intact strom trooper squad, the assault squad 2 brand new sentinels and 2 sentinels weaponless.  and then all hell boke loose in the next 2 turns the imperials servants were unable to hit anything in front of them and were cut down to the last man by the ravager and the big wych squad.

So lesson to learn sharpshooter doctrine is a must I probably rolled more than 20 ones in  the whole battle ( surprisingly no plasma gunner die today) and just get away from those updated wyches they are nasty. probably will need to buy master craft weapons too for the commisar and the officers.  

Sorry for th loss. Sounds like it was close though, until the final turn or two.

I don't think sharpshooters will help you out though. It only works with troops with a BS of 3.

Interesting army concept. I don't think I have ever actually seen something like this ran by anyone.

CE

One of the guys in our club tried to run a drop troop list. He played against another of our veteran players that used a DH list. The drop troopers found out what a Mystic does. It wasn't pretty. Fearless men, who jump and die.

Deepstriking IG is a bad idea.  Not taking a counter charge units is a bad idea, playing expensive IG (like storm troopers) is a bad idea.  Unfortunately the army as designed robs the IG of all their best assests, numbers, A flag, leadership from an officer, and counter charge.  Not a surprising result.  Re evaluate your army and especially the doctrines and things will get better.  The worst things in the IG book are pretty much: Deepstriking as a doctrine, Ogryns and Stormtroopers, probably in that order.

Oh...

The Commisar wants to see you. 

that's strange, i don't seem to have much trouble winning with my drop troop army. 

Darkchild

Well dark, it looks like we'll have to chuck you into the colosseum. Emperor Agustus has spoken and decreed that the static gunline that no one else in the world can make work is the only way to play guard.

cheers

PS you may have your choice of lions or large angry Italian pitfighters.

or you may face the Germanian or Gaulic slave champions in a duel...

(Lions are expensive)

I think augustus is confused. Drop troops is one of the best traits in the game.

Not confused, it's the worst trait in the game.  Deepstrike, is a horrible idea for assault week , morale vulnerable, low armor troops.

The concept of Airborne is very Macho, Hoo Yah, and all that, but in the game it's ridiculous.  It's not bad for a fluff reason, I have no grudge against paras.  It's just horribly implemented in 40k. Here are the facts:

Deepstrikers can only be used if the mission permits.  In a certain percentage of missions you will be using a doctrine slot for absolutely nothing.  This alone makes it a bad idea to play. Disadvantage.

Deepstrikers are always in reserve ensuring that they can never be present on turn one when used, taking away at least 1/6th of their value (assuming a 6 turn game), and likely more as they wont be around to do anything for at least 1 turn.  Disadvantage.

Deepstrikers may be destroyed in the drop, by landing off table, or on enemy units. Disadvantage.

Deeepstrikers that enter play can not fire heavy weapons, necesitating their equiping with assault weapons, necesitating their attempt to drop in the 6-inches - 12-inch band to even get a chance to fire.  This is the risky zone where their 2D6 may move them onto an enemy.  The weapon need forcing the player into a lose lose situation, drop too close, potentially lose the squad, or drop to far and be out of range.  Disadvantage.

Dropping like this (above) agravates the IG's biggest weekness, vulnerability to HtH, by depositing IG right at the charge distance, 12 inches, in order to try and fire.  Furthermore this placement often allows enemy assault units to use the formation for bonus movement by providing them with a charge target, and granting them an extra phase of charging and possibly consolidation or overun movement to reach your gunline that much sooner. Also any hand to hand combats block los, effectively cutting off your own gunline after the deepstrikers are engaged.  One might say "I won't put them in a position", but with the odds supporting deviation more likely than on target, that claim is defunct.

Worthless vs hoard armies.  Armies with high model count can simply spread out at the 2 inch distance, making it immpossible to drop in anyway.   Besides what's a IG squad do vs. a hoard army like Orks or bugs coming in randomly piecemeal? It dies, 1 or 2 squads at a time.

It doesn't cost any points per squad. Neutral

One might be able to drop on a rare unit, untargetable otherwise and wreck it. (Basilisk, Defiler, Ethereal, Tau Suits Etc.) this depends on your opponents set up largely to even be possible but it is appealing to imagine it succeeding. Advantage.

The IG army will be split up from the deployment, if not entirely dropping, like most Drop lists.  Ensuring for at least one turn they fight underpointed. Disdvantage.

So 1 advantage, 1 neutral and 5 disadvatages.  Is it a romantic, cool and thematic doctrine, sure.  Is it the best? Far from it, is it even good.  No.

This is not even theory hammer, my IG foot army eats drop armies of all stripes for breakfast.  I have never lost to one.  I have beaten Drop IG, and Drop Marines.  My whole army is just sitting their locked and loaded and my opponent is praying to god he makes some reserve rolls all game, he comes in piecemeal with his stuff, while I bring my full army to bear every turn.  It's simple tactics.  Don't divide your forces or you can be defeated in detail.  Your Ball.

(I'm having more Lions shipped in from Carthage just for you plebians! )

@astrip

Yea, the best doctrine huh?  Did you read the Batrep.  Surprise, they lost.

?

Posted By Augustus on 01/10/2006 11:19 PM

@astrip

Yea, the best doctrine huh?  Did you read the Batrep.  Surprise, they lost.

?

To tell you the truth it was not a surprise as you mention it...the game was pretty close until the last two turns and had the really bad luck to be unable to hit anyhting in two turns. because the "if x then y" doesnt exist at all yes I lost that's a fact. So what? that was one game. Should lighten up. One game doesnt compromise my existence. Any way what I notice is that the grenadiers and storm trooper doctrines are not the best suited to mix with drop troopers exchanging the 3 grenadiers slots for two platoons will raise the body count and changing veterans for stormtroopers allow to have more special weapons. Either way I need to paly more games to jump into more conclusion.

 

For a doctrine that costs nothing and doesn't really keep you from taking the decent doctrines, i'd say drop troops is far from 'worst'.

Augustus, all your points are valid in regards to the list used in the batrep. However most IG players don't deepstikre their whole army. They deepstrike special weapon teams with demo charges, 6 man vets with triple special weapons and command squads with 4 special weapons. Eveything else sets up like your standard gunline IG. I guess if your heart is set on ogryn and mortar squads, then drop troops is a pretty bad doctrine. Otherwise I'd say its one of the better ones if used wisely.

@Winterman

Granted, most armies Deepstrike just a few squads, but I still say its a bad idea, because of the risk.  I advocate the points are better spent on counter charge units, static units, or armor. Probably in that order.

As for Heart set on...  If a player chooses to play anything for a fluffy reason, I salute them.  Like dropping your whole army, or playing mortars and ogryns etc.  But I think all these choices are pretty bad ones, they lead to loss more often than not.  I have 3 units of mortars and 2 of mechanized Ogryns and I play them for fun all the time.  If I posted my list up, for evaluation I'd be prepared to take all kinds of bullets, and rightly so however.  That doesnt mean I'll never paint/play fluffly units.

I admit free, is a good thing, if you have an extra unspent doctrine, why not.  Maybe you could even use it once in a while to good effect, but as the concept for dropping an army its a pretty random game, either it comes in on target together or not, with the odds being not, and it largely seems like a recipe for destruction.  In limited scope perhaps... I'd rather have another heavy support weapon group in my HQ or another RR squad over a deepstriking squad anyday, in any configuration.  But variety is the spice of life.

Carry on.

I'm with Augustus. Deep striking IG coming in piecemeal is definitely a recipe for disaster.

Keeping your armor on the ground and deepstriking suicide melta or plasma squads has it's place, but not a big fan of that either.

It's a bit of a parlor trick that will work on the unitiated but a veteran player will see it coming a mile away.

I think that this is a subobtimal drop list, as it has the carapace and uses storm troopers all of which drive up the points but don't take advantage of numbers.

What I see as the common suggestion for dropping guard takes advantage of the numbers.

You get 3 -6 sentinels for heavy weapons fire and to allow rerolls on reserve rolls. Improved comms helps coordinate immensely.

Then you fill in as many squads and company command as you can, with vets if you like. Drop around 12-13 squads or more, if I recall correctly. If you lose one, it is not a big deal, as you have plenty left over.

General strategy is to reroll successes on the first turn (you want to minimize the effect of close combat, as well as return fire) then on the second turns 3+ rolls you try and bring in as much of your army as you can. Then, when they try to move to engage that portion of your army, you bring the remaining 3-5 squads in on the newly opened flanks.

It can be very difficult to fight, from what I hear. I admit that this is hearsay.

Deepstriking IG is a bad idea. Not taking a counter charge units is a bad idea, playing expensive IG (like storm troopers) is a bad idea. Unfortunately the army as designed robs the IG of all their best assests, numbers, A flag, leadership from an officer, and counter charge.

Uhm no, deepstriking IG is a great idea. It was just badly implemement idea.

I run an IG DT at 1850 with 180 models. You cant kill enough of them. There is no need of a counter charge unit. Nor a flag, or leadership from officers.

Less toys, more bodies.

I don't know, I've been pretty pleased with using a squad or two of deepstriking veterans maxed-out with plasma guns. Fairly cheap, can neutralize most enemy threats quickly, and if the mission doesn't allow deepstriking, they can easily serve as a "counter charge" unit of sorts by hanging back and rapid-firing assaulters.

@ Skuller - You seem to have lost for 2 reasons: 1) Not enough bodies/guns, and 2) bad luck.

I thikn taking Platoons (without Carapace) would vbenefit you - as it would give you heavy weapons. You were relying on the Sentinels to provide you with the heavy shooting, which is often a mistake, thanks to AV10, Open Topped. I personally use Multi Lasers & Comms on my sentinels, and you can charge weak troops and lock them for the game, and S6 can hurt light vehicles. A Platoon or 2 with LAscannons would provide you with some nice, heavy firepower, and the Sentinels can call all the reservess in at once.

The luck - well, everyone has bad days. Not hitting stuff sucks, but hey, it happens.


@ Augustus: Well, I have a 1500 point Drop Troops army with 174 models. In 17 games, I haven't lost once.

166 of those models will likely be coming in on the same turn, thanks to my Sentinels and their Improved Comms.

It has been voted the "Most feared Army" at 2 of my local stores - people just can't kill enough men in the game limit. And, the ammount of guns makes up for the lack of skill. A lot of the guns often end up in rapid-fire range, and so the enemy is going to feel something.

I also astound people by winning with the use of Grenade Launchers - one of the (apparently) worst weapons on the game. The fact that I ahve around 10 Meltas too helps, but the GL does the donkey work.

Drop Troop IG WORKS, if done right. And yes, Gunline is awsome too, no one disputes that.