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Greetings!

First a little back story. I am not by any means new to the game (or to Dakka ...though apparently I lost my account at some point in time) but I haven't played a whole lot of fourth edition 40k. I played a whole lot of third edition 40k and a little bit of fourth ed. when it came out. I've been essentially out of the game for a while but we've got a pretty good play group building up where I live (Odessa/Midland Texas if anyone cares) so I'm trying to get back into the game. When I did play heavily back in third ed. I played mostly Chaos (though I have some Eldar and Tau too) so I figured that what I would start with is Chaos since I have the most models for that and see if I could tool it up to be competitive under the fourth ed. rules. So without further ado here's the list:

1850 Chaos:

HQ:

Demon Prince- wings, mark of Khorne ...140

Demon Prince- wings, mark of Khorne ...140

Troops:

3x Chaos Marines x 10 - Melta Gun x 2, Champion w' Power Fist, Rhino transport ... 245 (735 pts total)

Chaos Marines x 10 - Plasma Gun x 2, Champion w' Power Fist, Rhino transport ... 255 pts

2x Chaos Marines x 10 - Plasma Gun x 2, Rhino transport ... 215 (430 pts total)

Heavy Support:

Chaos Defiler ...150 pts

Points Total: 1850 pts

Ok, now before you start critiquing and/or ripping me apart let me discuss a few of my concerns.

1. What, no lash princes? I agree that the lash prince is probably the most effective demon prince configuration. However, I currently do not have actual demon prince models so I am using greater demons of Khorne for my princes since flying greater demons no longer exist (Yes, I have two ...a newer one and the old "goofy" look alike) while I suppose that I could say that they "count as" demon princes of Slaanesh that just seems like a real stretch seeing as how they have marks of khorne all over their bodies. Also, if I wanted to do lash princes I've have to cut some points somewhere and I'm not sure where I'd want to do that.

2. Just how shooty is a Chaos rhino full of marines? A good question actually. I don't know how many people have noticed this but in the chaos book under the rhino description it just lists the rhino as "Fire Points: 1". Unlike the other marine books it never actually says how many people can shoot out of this onefire point. The rules book isn't much help either. Under the rules for fire points on page 64 it merely says that "A fire point is a hatch or gun slit from which one or more passengers inside the vehicle can fire". Now, I've done some internet sleuthing to try and find the answer and it looks like there are three schools of thought: 1) It says "fire points: 1" so only one model can shoot 2) It doesn't put any limitation on the number of people that can shoot out of the fire point so maybe the whole squad can shoot and 3) GW just goofed up and omitted something stating that it works just like every other rhino (including the nearly identical 35 point Dark Angel Rhino) so only two models can fire. Personally, I think that options one and two sound absurd so I am assuming that two models can shoot. What does every one else think?

3. Another thing that I don't think that many people have caught on to is that every chaos marine is armed with a bolt pistol, closed combat weapon and a bolt gun. This is huge. What this means is that you can drive up in your rhino, disembark, rapid fire the hell out of the enemy unit and then when and if the remnants charge your marines they get 2 attacks apiece just like they were the old shooty/choppy chaos marines. So basically this means that all Chaos marines have what I have started calling "true grit plus". I was a little disappointed at first that Chaos marines had gone from 14 to 15 points but with this addition I will gladly pay an extra point. I just thought I'd point that out.

Anyhow, if you guys could give me your thoughts on the list I'd really appreciate it!

Regarding point no. 2, the first school of thought is the one supported by the rules. On page 58 of the good book the rule is given: "If a vehicle is not open-topped, the Fire Points characteristic tells you how many passengers can fire their weapons through slits or hatches while inside the vehicle." I couldn't tell you why GW decided to give the chaos rhino one fewer fire point than the loyalist marine rhino, but there it is.

I will be the first to admit that 60 marines is a frightening prospect. However, I think the homogeneity of your list is still going to get you in trouble, particularly in that you have very little long range firepower. Also, rhinos are fairly easy to destroy, and if your opponent manages to destroy them in different places such that he can deal with your marines in a piecemeal fashion, you'll be finished. The greatest strength in the chaos codex probably lies in the elites section. Consider some terminators -- they're cheaper than their loyalist counterparts -- or some chosen. These units would give you some versatility.

I would much, much rather have two obliterators than a defiler.

Even if you could fire all of your guns out of the rhino, who would want to stay in the rhino and get pinned next turn? No one, that's who.

I like your list a lot, though I question whether it'd be better if you were to:
1) Drop the defiler
2) make as many of your squads as you can havoc squads with 3 or 4 specials


Any way you slice it though, you can't go wrong with 60 marines and two daemon princes. It'll do very well by virtue of numbers if nothing else.

What would you guys think about dropping the defiler and adding some terminators? They're 30 points apiece so I could potentially do a squad of three w' a reaper autocannon and a couple of combi meltas and still have 25 points to spare. This might be a nice expendable unit to drop in amongst the opposing side and tie up some shooting units or vehicles while the main force gets there to finish things off.

My thinking with the defiler was really that I already have a lot of vehicles and other large tough targets so a defiler would really be a lot more survivable than usual (due to target saturation) and also that he would be another good big hand to hand unit that would be a lot faster than a dreadnaught or greater demon. The plan is essentially to use him as flying demon prince number three that ocasionally shoots pie plates at things.

And as for the Rhino question I don't think that it is as cut and dry as you are saying it is Shirou. I will concede that the BGB at the begining of the vehicle shooting section where it is giving a general overview of the vehicle shooting rules states that "If a vehicle is not open-topped, the Fire Points characteristic tells you how many passengers can fire their weapons through slits or hatches while inside the vehicle." However, under the section that actually gives further details and clarification on the ruls for shooting states (pg 64) that "A fire point is a hatch or gun slit from which one or more passengers inside the vehicle can fire". This means that each fire point can have more than one model shooting from it and that as such there is no set number of models that can shoot from each fire point. In fact, I believe that some of the space marine books state specifically that there is one fire point from which two models shoot. I'm at work though so I don't have the books in front of me to quote. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that though. Regardless of that, my point is that the fact that there is one fire point does not conclusively establish that only one model may shoot (I was just trying to establish some precedent for one fire point != one model shooting).

I just played some games this past sunday at my friends house and we decided that the fire point 1 thing meant only one weapon could fire out the top of the rhino, i dont know if thats the intention but we did that instead of arguing.

I would likewise drop the defiler for 2 obliterators.  The oblits can deepstrike, and now have both plasma cannons and multi-meltas which i used to great effect in the games last sunday.  The defiler is simply a huge target that WILL get shot at and probly destroyed before the end of the battle.  Not having indirect fire anymore is a huge problem IMO.

I think you should seriously consider a couple of chosen squads instead of some of those marine squads in rhino.

Chosen are so much better than your regular marine squads its stupid.

I am posting a list up here that i played this past sunday in another thread and i think it worked very well.

Take alook and maybe you'll get some ideas, not that my list is the end all be all but it worked well for me.

tomguycot, I did not remember the description of fire points on page 83, and you're right, it does say that one or more passengers may fire from the same fire point. However, because this is (a) vague -- it does not provide any means for determining how many passengers may shoot -- and (b) a contradiction to the rule given on page 58, I would play with the rule on page 58, and indeed I think most people do.

Yes, I agree that it is quite vague and I really wish that GW wouldn't do crap like that. There is really no good reason for making it that vague. Personally though, I see no reason to treat the Chaos rhino as being different than the Dark Angel rhino that also costs 35 points and clearly states that two models can fire from the one hatch on the top (paraphrased because once again I'm at work).

I will admit that there are indeed vehicles where only one model can fire from a fire point (such as the Chimera) but those specifically state that only one model can shoot. However, I actually don't think that the two statements in the rule book itself are contradictory (just perhaps poorly phrased). The first statement at the begining of the vehicle shooting rules just gives a brief description of how shooting from vehicles works ie: open top means every one can shoot, non-open top means that the number of models that can shoot will be defined on a per vehicle basis. Then the second mention of fire points (pg 64 I believe) specifically explains what a fire point is. So I don't think that the way you should think of it is that there are two competing definitions of a fire point but as a general summary of how passengers shooting from vehicles works and then a more specific description of what a fire point is. That specific description basically refers you to the rules for the vehicle in the appropriate codex to find out how many people can shoot out of each fire point. In this case, however, when you go to the Chaos book to find out how many people can shoot out of that one specified fire point there isn't anything listed. So I think that the only logical thing to do between now and when an FAQ is released is to just assume that that one fire point works just the same as the one fire point on all of the other rhinos.

Also, keep in mind that having multpile fire points if multiple models can shoot out of them would not be redundant. The position of a vehicle's fire points could make a big difference on things such as line of sight. For example, a fire point in the front of a vehicle and on a hatch on top of the vehicle would not both be able to shoot at targets positioned behind the vehicle. They would, however, both be able to shoot at targets in front of the vehicle.

I hope that that made as much sense written out as it did in my head.