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Having played my first game of Apocalypse, an interesting rules question came up....

Falcons in a Cloudstrike Squadron may count as a flyer for a turn under certain conditions (ie all Falcons within 6" of the command tank, etc).  They may then move as flyers, only hit on 6's, etc.  However, as they count as flyers in all respects, how does this interact with a Flyer's ability to disengage from the battlefield altogether? The problem isn't whether a Cloudstrike Falcon can disengage from the battle or not, but what happens after that.

On a RAW basis, a flyer may disengage and then return in the next turn.  It does not go into strategic reserve.  However, a Falcon in a Cloudstrike Squadron is only a flyer for a turn and may only continue to be such if the relevant conditions continue to be fulfilled.  However, if the Falcons are off the table, it is therefore impossible for them to (for instance) be within 6" of the command tank at the beginning of your turn.  As such, they can't continue to be flyers and they must revert to being skimmers (it would be the same reason why strictly they couldn't enter the table as flyers but would first need to enter as skimmers and then become flyers in a subsequent turn).

However, the rules don't envisage a non-flyer unit ever being kept off the table for any reason other than being held in strategic reserve.  As such, it would seem to me on a RAW basis, that the rules simply don't address this situation.

On a "makes sense/house rule/how do we make this work in game" approach (ie putting aside strict RAW), it would make sense that if they disengage, they would go into strategic reserve.  There is no question that they can disengage (as they count as a flyer in all respects if they choose to move in that fashion, etc) and since the rules seem to be silent on this specific issue, this seems like the best in-game solution.

The amusing thing is, since they are transports, one can then load them up with units...like Harlequins.  If the Falcons went into strategic reserve, then surely the Harlequins would also? Additionally, if it is say Turn 3+, then all strategic reserves come on automatically and indeed, the Harlequins don't have to ride in the said Falcons and could just walk on from a table edge, even assaulting the same turn.  Probably not envisaged, but if we accept the solution that the Falcons would go into strategic reserve, then this would seem to follow....

Thoughts?

Hmm,
being the person you played against using this formation has given me a little perspective.

A couple questions came to mind.

1) if a falcon flies off, do any models in the falcon stay in the falcon (IE being transported like a thunderhawk) or do they just go into strategic reserve.

I would assume that they must stay in the transport but we played (at the request of Milesteg) to use the strategic reserve analogy (which I see the reasoning behind but only as a byproduct of it not being directly addressed in the rules)

2) Can a cloud strike squadron land after becoming a flyer further than 6" from the command skimmer?

3) If a skimmer in the group is immobilized but still active, can the others become flyers?

etc etc

It's clear that the issue isn't addressed by the rules, but this sort of thing was bound to happen with the introduction of so many new special rules.

Personally, I don't see the best result to assume that the Falcons enter 'Strategic Reserve' when they leave the table as flyers (as flyers don't normally re-enter Strategic Reserve when they leave the table, they are just allowed to return on any other turn if they wish). I think the easiest solutions are:

A) Don't allow the Falcons to leave the table as flyers.
B) Allow Falcons off the table to continue to act as flyers until they return to the table.

This is a good house rule for those who want to put the thought into it. This represents some awesome ability to actually play a little of the fluff into actual games as the falcons are used as flyers in Eldar fluff acting as thier version of drop pods and valkeries.

The important thing here is do what makes sense to your group and bring it up when you play a new opponent as the answer seems pretty simple to resolve with two level headed people.

Orion

Posted By Orion_44 on 10/15/2007 1:08 PM

The important thing here is do what makes sense to your group and bring it up when you play a new opponent as the answer seems pretty simple to resolve with two level headed people.

Orion

This is the exact heart of the apocalypse ruleset. These games are meant to be fun and loose.  They're meant for non spontaneous, often storyline driven games.

Trying to read the rules with a tournament mindset will just pick out a lot of the holes in them. It's my belief that these holes, while not exactly intentional, were well within the design team's intent. When you encounter one, look to the fluff. In this context fluff is pretty much intent, and can be used to come to a friendly and fun solution.

   Apocalypse is all about size, not just in models or numbers of models, but also in  just how grandiose can you make the battle in general.

Play to have fun, and along the way, try to win.

I concur; we'll come up with something that makes sense, but it is useful to know what is actually written before we get to that point :-)

I'm a lawyer by trade; asking these sorts of questions is somewhat inevitable.....

Posted By milesteg on 10/15/2007 7:08 PM
I concur; we'll come up with something that makes sense, but it is useful to know what is actually written before we get to that point :-)

I'm a lawyer by trade; asking these sorts of questions is somewhat inevitable.....

Fair enough. Then by the strict RAW you've made an unsupportable assumption that the Falcons which leave the table are placed into strategic reserves. There is nothing in the rules to support that assertion.

You are absolutely correct that Falcons which are off the table cannot be shown to be within any certain distance of the command Falcon so therefore cannot act as Flyers.

Therefore, by the strict RAW Falcons which leave the table as a flyer would then simply be off the table with no recourse in the rules to return to the game.

 

Obviously no one is going to play that way, but that is what the rules would indicate by the strictest possible interpretation.

 

Posted By yakface on 10/15/2007 7:20 PM

Posted By milesteg on 10/15/2007 7:08 PM
I concur; we'll come up with something that makes sense, but it is useful to know what is actually written before we get to that point :-)

I'm a lawyer by trade; asking these sorts of questions is somewhat inevitable.....

Fair enough. Then by the strict RAW you've made an unsupportable assumption that the Falcons which leave the table are placed into strategic reserves. There is nothing in the rules to support that assertion.

You are absolutely correct that Falcons which are off the table cannot be shown to be within any certain distance of the command Falcon so therefore cannot act as Flyers.

Therefore, by the strict RAW Falcons which leave the table as a flyer would then simply be off the table with no recourse in the rules to return to the game.

 

Obviously no one is going to play that way, but that is what the rules would indicate by the strictest possible interpretation.

 

Oh by all means; I believe that I acknowledged in the initial post that the concept of Falcons going into strategic reserves had no RAW basis whatsoever (merely being a "makes sense" solution, which is divorced from any RAW analysis).  I concur with you; strictly under the RAW Falcons leave the table and then...well...very little.  As such, I was as much checking that I had read it correctly (and not missed something straightforward) and if anyone had any different "makes sense/house rule" type of solutions.  I suspect that this won't be the first time that it comes up, and won't be the last....