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Hi folks,
relatively easy question here: Can or can't he/she?
I was toying with the idea of a banshee squad with attached farseer casting doom and fortune on the enemy while the banshees do the dirty work. I tend towards that he cannot, but am not quite sure, because the rulebook says it's treated as shooting, but the eldar psychic powers don't say he has to "shoot" the powers and it isn't done in the shooting phase either.

Thanks for any clarification!

Greets
Schepp himself

We just had this debate on the 40kfightclub. One of our guys asked Phil Kelly and here is his response. Good luck with this at tournament as IMO RAW seems to imply otherwise and this isn't a clear point either way. But for what it is worth here is the link and the original post

http://www.40kfightclub.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=13166&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
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Well ladz,

Phil Kelly, author of Codex: Eldar was kind enough to answer the recent round of questions on Fortune, Doom, and Guide for us.

Here is his response:

+++++

Hey Brian

Well, given that the Codexes can overrule general rules in rulebooks, the answer is yes - the powers can be used when the Farseer is engaged/locked in combat (and can be cast into combat as well).
This was certainly the intention.

I can see that it could possibly be interpreted as ambiguous but I think the Eldar codex has a clear overrule going on. This is the first time I have heard this question raised since Codex: Eldar was published and will address the issue(s) with Alessio et al.

Cheers

Phil

+++++

Get your Farseer on!

It seems that there's some debate over how to apply the "psychic powers follow shooting rules unless otherwise stated" rule, with some arguing that if a power clearly does not work like shooting, you don't have to go nuts following every shooting rule not specifically addressed. However, the RAW is clear as you suspect.. unless the rules for the power specifically allow casting it in CC, you can't, just as you can't shoot while in CC.

Yea, my group had the same issue, and swize has it! Its a HUGE problem for farseers, easily taking their effects out of the game when they are most needed, 2 Reasons:

Can't shoot out HtH:

Can't Target Locked models:

This really interferes with all the Farseer powers, Mindwar can't fire into or out of HtH, (HTH blocks LOS so models in HTH aren't in LOS, and locked models don't shoot).  The no targeting of locked models also means doom and fortune can't be cast on units in HtH, the times where you need it most.  As a result it is very difficult to set up those powers to work at all, and easily nullified by going into melee with the Eldar.

Technically since locked models dont shoot and since psychic powers specify they follow all the rules for shooting unless specfied otherwise being locked with Eldar Farseers essentially shuts down all their powers, they can't even fortune themselves in HtH. IMO Farseers arent very good (except Eldrad, for his settup power a different issue) and I haven't bothered playing one for months....

My group didn't want to play it that way, because we all have combos of Eldar armies in development, but after reading the rules it's pretty plain....

Augustus - I would argue you are being too hard on the farseer with that interpretation. The ability to cast while in hand to hand is a fair one. However I would argue that the powers of Fortune and Doom can be targetted on locked units becuase fortune and Doom both provide an alternative targetting requirement to the normal shoting rules. (no LOS needed) Mindwar is tougher as it does require LOS and the question of at what point does combat block LOS is unclear. FYI-Lash has this same issue although it is less relevent. I see Kelly's argument that Fortune and Doom provides an alternative casting scenerio by saying at the start of turn, but I don't know that I would consider the timing restriction and the not in combat restriction to be a singular set of restrictions. The other way to justify it (and I'll have to research the exact wording) is that if any part of the normal shooting restrictions are overruled, they all are. The more I think about this, this might be the best way to understand that line.

Yea maybe so (to strict), probably worth another look. But the farseer being locked is still an issue as he usually joins a unit for protection, and then, they get locked and so does he by connection.

Hmm.... interesting post.

Whoa...I didn't think that it would be that big of a deal, partly because I've never seen it being discussed here, and the battle reports seem to imply
that you indeed can cast powers into melee. I wasn't sure about casting out of combat, but the rules seem to be pretty clear at that point. What Phil says however...
Well, It would be cool, if that will be FAQed in the future, but we all know the odds I guess.

Thanks for all the input.

Greets
Schepp himself

Firstly the rulebook says "unless specified otherwise" for the "use all the rules for shooting" rule for psychic powers. So....Fortune, Doom, and Guide are NOT using the shooting rules because they are cast at the start of turn, not in the shooting phase, and not shooting attacks. How would it follow the shooting rules at all if its not even used in the shooting phase?!

Secondly, the Eldar codex specifies what powers require LOS ans what phase they are cast in, so why is it hard to determine what constitutes a  "shooting" power?

Lastly, look at Eldrad's staff. He can cast a third power (one of them can be a duplicate) if he is not in combat. Doesn't this suggest that he can cast powers in CC just not the third one?

The rules in thebasic rulebook concerning psychic powers don't apply to a huge amount of psychic powers, just look at the Blood Angels powers, more than half of them are useless unless in CC.

So, Mind War and Eldritch Storm are "like shooting" but the others clearly aren't.

Having not read any of the above:

Not if they're shooting powers.

Eldar have no shooting powers (except the Warlock's Destructor). They do have instead-of-shooting powers, though.

Nurglitch, do you think that a psychic power not being used in the shooting phase means it doesn't follow ANY of the rules for shooting then?  Is that your position?

If so, don't you think thats a big jump?

The language of the psychic power rules is exlcusionary, if memory serves, the language is, "unless specifeid otherwise", therefore, unless something is specified otherwise explicitly, a psychic power should be limited/benefited just like a shooting attack, which includes all sorts of things (besides phase) like targeting rules, wounding mechanism, armor penetration etc.  This for example is why I concluded that FOTA gets +1 AP from tank hunters, because it's a shooting ability "unless specifed otherwise".  I think this also means the good (+1 Tank Hunter AP) has to be taken with the bad (HtH issues)  though, and other shooting rules, like the inability to shoot out of hand to hand and the inability to target locked models also apply, (unless of course if specified otherwise).

?

I think it has been pointed out and is well understood by RAW how this works and for those Eldar players from GT Chicago, LA and many other tourneys, Doom, Fortune, and Guide use the rules as stated:

1) Power used at beginning of turn
2) No LOS needed
3) Unit must be within specified Range

Mind War and Eldritch storm are used in the shooting phase and cannot be used when the farseer is locked in CC as he may not shoot. Both powers must be cast on legal targets as described in the BGB with the following exceptions: Mindwar may be cast on any individual model in LOS and a legal target, Eldritch strom needs no LOS.

I also suggest looking at the Psychic powers section of the BGB again as you may use psychic powers as they are described in their individual codexes, where not specified treat them as shooting powers. The Eldar powers are all specified.

Orion

So you just ignore the rest of my points and say that I've made "a big jump"?

So the BA powers that specify that you use them in the assault phase, one of which you use against an enemy model in B2B, have to follow all the rules for shooting, and cannot be cast in combat?

Eldrad's staff which specifies you can only use a 3rd power if not in CC makes any sense at all if you cannot cast in CC anyway?

If you want to spend the additional points to give Tank Hunter to a squad so you can get S6 instead of S5 (it makes no sense really though) FOTA I'd let you. It IS a shooting power, cast in the shooting phase.

Posted By Nurgleboy77 on 10/26/2007 5:33 PM
So you just ignore the rest of my points and say that I've made "a big jump"?

So the BA powers that specify that you use them in the assault phase, one of which you use against an enemy model in B2B, have to follow all the rules for shooting, and cannot be cast in combat?

Eldrad's staff which specifies you can only use a 3rd power if not in CC makes any sense at all if you cannot cast in CC anyway?

If you want to spend the additional points to give Tank Hunter to a squad so you can get S6 instead of S5 (it makes no sense really though) FOTA I'd let you. It IS a shooting power, cast in the shooting phase.

@ point 1: The fact that it says that it is used in CC constitutes "unless specified otherwise".

@ point 2: It wouldn't be the first time GW has added needless text like that. I refer you to the entry for the Cyclic Ion Baster in the Tau Empire codex.

...and the fact that Fortune & Guide are used at the start of turn, don't require LOS, and don't target an enemy model (the first thing you DO in the shooting rules) constitutes "unless otherwise specified" as far as I am concerned.

As far as the BA powers are concerned, it actually doesn't say you "use it in close combat" it just says it is cast in the Assault phase. Being in CC is not a requirement.

I'm just going by what people have quoted so far, as I have neither codex. So there's a good chance I'm wrong on this. I'll bow out of the eldar discussion.

But just a question on the BA power one; You mentioned having to be in base-to-base before. The only way to be in base-to-base is to be in CC.

"Unless specified otherwise," can mean 1 of 2 things by RAW. It can mean that they will specify which parts don't apply, or that they will specify, in total, another way for it to work.

To use the example that was used one of the last times this discusion came up: If I tell you everything in my store is $1 unless specified otherwise, isn't it enough that I label some items as being $5, or do I still have to tell you it isn't $1.

Yes, but if you say everything is a dollar, has free shipping, and is blue unless otherwise specified, and the item is clearly not blue, is it still $1 and free shipping? This is a better example because the "normal shooting rules" are a lot of different things, some applicable and some definitely not.

Well, each Psychic power is proabbly worth its own discussion, failing that I'll sumarize.

Because of the language "follows the shooting rules unless specifed otherwise" it would seem generally, that psychic powers can not be cast from locked models and can not target locked models in the majority of cases, unless of course the psychic powers specify otherwise explicitly, like the HtH powers.

If memory serves, the farseer powers don't specify these details. Therefore they can not be cast out of HtH at all or at locked targets.

?

Augustus, no offence, but it seems like you're ignoring Imriel's post, which has already covered this:
Your position is that it means the first.

Farseer powers:

Mind War: Works as a shooting attack and language specifies in shooting phase, etc. Not available in CC.

Fortune: Cast at the beginning of the turn, prior to shooting and CC. Does not have restrictive language regarding targeting, aside from range. Available in CC

Guide: As Fortune

Doom: IIRC as Mind War (codex not handy).

To sum-up: Mind War and Doom, not available if Farsee is in CC. Fortune and Guide are.

It seems like Doom is similar to Fortune and Guide. Why would it be more like Mind War?

As far as not being able to target locked models that is in regards to shooting attacks, not everything under the sun.

augustus have you read the eldar codex? you seem to be making a lot of "absolute" statements and if you read the section it is very clear:

eldar psychic powers are used at the begining of the eldar turn, and require NO LOS unless specified otherwise.

mind war and eldritch storm are the only powers for a farseer that even mention the shooting phase, the rest happen before you do ANYTHING. they "go off" at the begining of the turn, and i believe that technically they dont even require that you "target" a squad (except for doom i think). you nominate a squad, not target them. sure its just a play on words, but it matters on how things are worded in particular.

2 things stick out in my mind,

1. the author of the book has released a statement saying thats how they wanted them to work

2. it does state "unless otherwise specified" psychic powers act as shooting does. i think the rule: unless otherwise specified farseer psychic powers take place at the beginning of the eldar turn over-rides the BGB rules, as codexs do.

Doom, Guide, and Fortune have systems of operation which clearly bear no resemblence to shooting.

Mindwar and Eldritch Storm work in a very similar manner to shooting, and are used instead of shooting.

The rules themselves are not as clear as I'd like, but I've never heard or seen anyone try to argue that Doom, Guide, or Fortune couldn't be used in HTH. Their system is clearly different from shooting.