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Please actually read and study the entry in question before answering.  This really is also a RAW discussion since we are all hopeful that the 'intent' was to allow for the big hitty Nob.

The ENTIRE MOB may replace their sluggas and choppas with shootas

one boy may be upgraded to a Nob

He may replace his CHOPPA with one of the following...power klaw

 

if he is upgraded AFTER the squad, he has no choppa to trade for the Klaw.

if he is upgraded BEFORE the squad, then the ENTIRE MOB cannot replace sluggas and choppas because the Nob no longer has a CHOPPA.  (as yak has pointed out this is only with the strictest and most anal interpretation.)

...Posted in its own thread so that I dont get in trouble by yak for spamming it across every Ork thread.

whoops, sorry, I should've stuck this in the rules section....Mod?

And if he is upgraded AT THE SAME TIME as the squad, he can have a klaw.

Am I allowed to bring into the discussion if the Slugga and Shootaboys will be equally balanced if the answer is "yes"?

I think it would be a good thing because it would prevent the often seen all-comer-unit syndrome. If the boyz are shooty, why's the boss choppy?

On top of that would it rock so much more if you could give the Nob in a shootaboys mob a custom weapon or big shoota.

Per the leaked version we have now I would vote yes, even though I think it's no.

Greets
Schepp himself

EDIT: damn I screwed the last sentenced up. I meant it just the other way around. I even voted the wrong thing. Well, that's democracy in a shell for ya...

I think its probably yes as well, but i'm assuming the worst.

Perhaps we'll see an example that you can in this next months WD, apparently they are supposed to have two ork battle reports in the same issue.  Not that they never do anything wrong in battle reports, but it could give us a clue on the safety of picking up loads of shoota boys with Nobs.

As long as you upgrade the nob with the klaw before upgrading the mob to shootas then yes. He keeps the klaw and replaces his slugga for a shoota. It never mentions replacing the klaw only the choppa that he no longer has. It's pretty clear that the nob is meant to be able to take the claw in either situation but very poor wording is causing all the confusion. Nobs have power clawz. Its just something ork nobs have. Its in all the fluff and all the pictures and you have been able to take them in all versions of the codex since they first existed.

I'm not even sure what the big deal is. I've seen some fairly convincing math-hammer over on the-waaagh that's convinced me that the two options (assume power klaws in both) are of roughly equivalent power-level, well within the margin where a change in point values for the shoota upgrade would be unjustified. The idea that shootaboys are clearly superior to sluggaboys has no basis in fact that I can ascertain.

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 2:26 PM
 It's pretty clear that the nob is meant to be able to take the claw in either situation but very poor wording is causing all the confusion. Nobs have power clawz.

How is the intent pretty clear the he should?  I would argue the intent is cleary not, even the start of the unit description says the mobs are lead by nobs who epitomises that mobs skill, pure fluff, but sounds like it is meant  be shoota mob led by shooty nob, hitty mob led by hitty nob.  But the real point is the rule intent is a big fat who knows.

Like someone above said, I'm hoping they are not allowed, purely cos every one seems to think the shoota/pk mob is a no brainer best. Removing the PK moves the balance a bit away from that, and might make people think about which type they want.

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 3:05 PM

I would argue the intent is cleary not, even the start of the unit description says the mobs are lead by nobs who epitomises that mobs skill, pure fluff, but sounds like it is meant be shoota mob led by shooty nob, hitty mob led by hitty nob. 

Look on page 40.  Shoota boyz like to use their guns for bashing brains out as much as they like shooting with them, so your fluff argument is just smoke.

I voted YES and this is my reasoning behind it.

It says that the entire mob MAY replace the slugga and choppa with a shoota. It does not say the entire mob HAS to replace its slugga and choppa to get shootas.

Remember orks can have mixed mobs of sluggas and shoota boyz. So you can upgrade everyboy but one. This is the boy that gets upgraded to a Nob and still has his choppa to trade for a PK.

I run mixed mobs often and I would be able to still run mixed mobs so half the mob is slugga with choppa's and the other is shoota's. I think I found the flaw in their thinking and if that doesn't work I have an old metal dreadnought in a sock that I will smack anyone upside the head with and I don't care who you are.

Nobz dont epitomise the squads skill. They are just big orks leading a mob of like minded smaller orks. The nob HAS his shoota. He wants his power klaw for when he gets to fightin' an winnin' up close when the real scrap begins. If the nob was supposed to "epitomise" the squads role he would have a big shoota or a kustom mega blasta. Or in the very least a snazzgun.

Posted By Doctor Thunder on 11/04/2007 3:39 PM

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 3:05 PM

I would argue the intent is cleary not, even the start of the unit description says the mobs are lead by nobs who epitomises that mobs skill, pure fluff, but sounds like it is meant be shoota mob led by shooty nob, hitty mob led by hitty nob. 

Look on page 40.  Shoota boyz like to use their guns for bashing brains out as much as they like shooting with them, so your fluff argument is just smoke.

My skill is programming, I can also cook. The fact that I can cook does not mean that is my skill, which usually implies a specialisation to some degree. Your argument is mere mist.

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 3:52 PM

I would argue the intent is cleary not, even the start of the unit description says the mobs are lead by nobs who epitomises that mobs skill, pure fluff, but sounds like it is meant be shoota mob led by shooty nob, hitty mob led by hitty nob.

Nobz dont epitomise the squads skill.

er - that is not what it says in the unit description.

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 3:54 PM

Posted By Doctor Thunder on 11/04/2007 3:39 PM

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 3:05 PM

I would argue the intent is cleary not, even the start of the unit description says the mobs are lead by nobs who epitomises that mobs skill, pure fluff, but sounds like it is meant be shoota mob led by shooty nob, hitty mob led by hitty nob. 

Look on page 40.  Shoota boyz like to use their guns for bashing brains out as much as they like shooting with them, so your fluff argument is just smoke.

My skill is programming, I can also cook. The fact that I can cook does not mean that is my skill, which usually implies a specialisation to some degree. Your argument is mere mist.

My skillz is choppin' in a good scrap.  I can also shoot a big gun while sprintin' to get into tha big scrap.  I am an ork.  Your argument makes you soun' lika a pinkskin.

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 3:56 PM

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 3:52 PM

I would argue the intent is cleary not, even the start of the unit description says the mobs are lead by nobs who epitomises that mobs skill, pure fluff, but sounds like it is meant be shoota mob led by shooty nob, hitty mob led by hitty nob.

Nobz dont epitomise the squads skill.

er - that is not what it says in the unit description.

Read the description for nobs.  They are there to boss around the boyz and lead by example by "plunging into the fighting and breaking heads left right and centre".  Not by shooting their little gun that all of the other boyz have too.  If they wanted to do that they would join a mob of flash gitz.

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 4:00 PM

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 3:56 PM

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 3:52 PM

I would argue the intent is cleary not, even the start of the unit description says the mobs are lead by nobs who epitomises that mobs skill, pure fluff, but sounds like it is meant be shoota mob led by shooty nob, hitty mob led by hitty nob.

Nobz dont epitomise the squads skill.

er - that is not what it says in the unit description.

Read the description for nobs.  They are there to boss around the boyz and lead by example by "plunging into the fighting and breaking heads left right and centre".  Not by shooting their little gun that all of the other boyz have too.  If they wanted to do that they would join a mob of flash gitz.

We aren't discussing units of nobs, read the description for the unit under discussion.

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 4:10 PM

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 4:00 PM

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 3:56 PM

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 3:52 PM

I would argue the intent is cleary not, even the start of the unit description says the mobs are lead by nobs who epitomises that mobs skill, pure fluff, but sounds like it is meant be shoota mob led by shooty nob, hitty mob led by hitty nob.

Nobz dont epitomise the squads skill.

er - that is not what it says in the unit description.

Read the description for nobs.  They are there to boss around the boyz and lead by example by "plunging into the fighting and breaking heads left right and centre".  Not by shooting their little gun that all of the other boyz have too.  If they wanted to do that they would join a mob of flash gitz.

We aren't discussing units of nobs, read the description for the unit under discussion.

The discription of nobz is a blanket description for all nobz.  Thats why it references leading units of boyz into battle.  Since there is no upgrade for a pure nobz squad to turn it into a squad of boyz and since the nob in the shoota boyz squad gets no upgrade for his piddly little gun I am left only to believe that the nobs description is a blanket description that applies to all units of boyz led by nobz.

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 4:17 PM

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 4:10 PM

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 4:00 PM

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 3:56 PM

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 3:52 PM

I would argue the intent is cleary not, even the start of the unit description says the mobs are lead by nobs who epitomises that mobs skill, pure fluff, but sounds like it is meant be shoota mob led by shooty nob, hitty mob led by hitty nob.

Nobz dont epitomise the squads skill.

er - that is not what it says in the unit description.

Read the description for nobs.  They are there to boss around the boyz and lead by example by "plunging into the fighting and breaking heads left right and centre".  Not by shooting their little gun that all of the other boyz have too.  If they wanted to do that they would join a mob of flash gitz.

We aren't discussing units of nobs, read the description for the unit under discussion.

The discription of nobz is a blanket description for all nobz.  Thats why it references leading units of boyz into battle.  Since there is no upgrade for a pure nobz squad to turn it into a squad of boyz and since the nob in the shoota boyz squad gets no upgrade for his piddly little gun I am left only to believe that the nobs description is a blanket description that applies to all units of boyz led by nobz.

So did you actually read the description of the unit under discussion! The bit where it says what I said about 6 quotes back.

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 4:21 PM

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 4:17 PM

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 4:10 PM

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 4:00 PM

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 3:56 PM

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 3:52 PM

I would argue the intent is cleary not, even the start of the unit description says the mobs are lead by nobs who epitomises that mobs skill, pure fluff, but sounds like it is meant be shoota mob led by shooty nob, hitty mob led by hitty nob.

Nobz dont epitomise the squads skill.

er - that is not what it says in the unit description.

Read the description for nobs.  They are there to boss around the boyz and lead by example by "plunging into the fighting and breaking heads left right and centre".  Not by shooting their little gun that all of the other boyz have too.  If they wanted to do that they would join a mob of flash gitz.

We aren't discussing units of nobs, read the description for the unit under discussion.

The discription of nobz is a blanket description for all nobz.  Thats why it references leading units of boyz into battle.  Since there is no upgrade for a pure nobz squad to turn it into a squad of boyz and since the nob in the shoota boyz squad gets no upgrade for his piddly little gun I am left only to believe that the nobs description is a blanket description that applies to all units of boyz led by nobz.

So did you actually read the description of the unit under discussion! The bit where it says what I said about 6 quotes back.

 

Yes I read it.  I especially love the part where it says "epitomises the mobs skill" then a few sentences later says that while the orks may love to fire their gun they are usually better at bashing peoples brains in with them.  Therego since the orkz are better at bashing with the gunz rather than firing them its no big logical leap to assume that the nob epitomises his mobs skill by being the best brain basher with a rifle among his smaller peers.  Ergo he shows his strength by bashing in skulls left right and middle.  And what is a good piece of wargear for the modern nob to go along with his gun-club?  A POWER KLAW!

Posted By Deadshane1 on 11/04/2007 1:28 PM

if he is upgraded BEFORE the squad, then the ENTIRE MOB cannot replace sluggas and choppas because the Nob no longer has a CHOPPA.  (as yak has pointed out this is only with the strictest and most anal interpretation.)

That is not the strictest interpretation. That is the loosest interpretation and is simply false.


When you have a group of people with items and you say the entire group is allowed to replace one item with another, there is nothing indicating that the exchange cannot occur if some of the group does not have the specified item, those without the needed item simply wouldn't exchange anything.

You keep saying that the mob cannot exchange their Sluggas and Choppas with Shootas if any model doesn't have a slugga and choppa. Why? Where is the basis for that claim? As long as every model in the unit that has a slugga and choppa exchanges it for a shoota all the criteria for following the rule has been met.

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 4:26 PM

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 4:21 PM

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 4:17 PM

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 4:10 PM

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 4:00 PM

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 3:56 PM

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 3:52 PM

I would argue the intent is cleary not, even the start of the unit description says the mobs are lead by nobs who epitomises that mobs skill, pure fluff, but sounds like it is meant be shoota mob led by shooty nob, hitty mob led by hitty nob.

Nobz dont epitomise the squads skill.

er - that is not what it says in the unit description.

Read the description for nobs.  They are there to boss around the boyz and lead by example by "plunging into the fighting and breaking heads left right and centre".  Not by shooting their little gun that all of the other boyz have too.  If they wanted to do that they would join a mob of flash gitz.

We aren't discussing units of nobs, read the description for the unit under discussion.

The discription of nobz is a blanket description for all nobz.  Thats why it references leading units of boyz into battle.  Since there is no upgrade for a pure nobz squad to turn it into a squad of boyz and since the nob in the shoota boyz squad gets no upgrade for his piddly little gun I am left only to believe that the nobs description is a blanket description that applies to all units of boyz led by nobz.

So did you actually read the description of the unit under discussion! The bit where it says what I said about 6 quotes back.

 

Yes I read it.  I especially love the part where it says "epitomises the mobs skill"....

phew - at last!

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 4:40 PM

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 4:26 PM

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 4:21 PM

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 4:17 PM

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 4:10 PM

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 4:00 PM

Posted By puree on 11/04/2007 3:56 PM

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 3:52 PM

I would argue the intent is cleary not, even the start of the unit description says the mobs are lead by nobs who epitomises that mobs skill, pure fluff, but sounds like it is meant be shoota mob led by shooty nob, hitty mob led by hitty nob.

Nobz dont epitomise the squads skill.

er - that is not what it says in the unit description.

Read the description for nobs.  They are there to boss around the boyz and lead by example by "plunging into the fighting and breaking heads left right and centre".  Not by shooting their little gun that all of the other boyz have too.  If they wanted to do that they would join a mob of flash gitz.

We aren't discussing units of nobs, read the description for the unit under discussion.

The discription of nobz is a blanket description for all nobz.  Thats why it references leading units of boyz into battle.  Since there is no upgrade for a pure nobz squad to turn it into a squad of boyz and since the nob in the shoota boyz squad gets no upgrade for his piddly little gun I am left only to believe that the nobs description is a blanket description that applies to all units of boyz led by nobz.

So did you actually read the description of the unit under discussion! The bit where it says what I said about 6 quotes back.

 

Yes I read it.  I especially love the part where it says "epitomises the mobs skill"....

phew - at last!

Ok, so we are in agreement then.  While it does in fact state that they epitomise the orks skill all orks are best at bashing heads.  So the nob leads his mob by bashing heads rather than firing the gun for which the mob is named.  Thus since he is a close combat specialist it is fluffy for him to have a power klaw befitting of his role and station.

 

Man, glad we cleared that one up.

c/p from other thread -

I was thinking on this...Say you have a special rule called 'Stasis' which prevents a single model from moving for any reason whatsoever (Including other special rules).

Say you have a unit that has a special rule that says that the entire unit may move exactly 12" in the same direction.

If you hit one model in that unit with Stasis, then would the rest of the unit be able to move using their special rule, leaving the one model behind, or would the whole unit be unable to use that rule?

Again, you have a completely different set of circumstances.

In this case the unit would be restricted to moving at the rate of the slowest member and therefore wouldn't be able to be moved.


But why are you making some sort of bizarre set of rules to make your point? Why not just present your actual argument?

Posted By yakface on 11/04/2007 4:34 PM

Posted By Deadshane1 on 11/04/2007 1:28 PM

if he is upgraded BEFORE the squad, then the ENTIRE MOB cannot replace sluggas and choppas because the Nob no longer has a CHOPPA.  (as yak has pointed out this is only with the strictest and most anal interpretation.)

That is not the strictest interpretation. That is the loosest interpretation and is simply false.


When you have a group of people with items and you say the entire group is allowed to replace one item with another, there is nothing indicating that the exchange cannot occur if some of the group does not have the specified item, those without the needed item simply wouldn't exchange anything.

You keep saying that the mob cannot exchange their Sluggas and Choppas with Shootas if any model doesn't have a slugga and choppa. Why? Where is the basis for that claim? As long as every model in the unit that has a slugga and choppa exchanges it for a shoota all the criteria for following the rule has been met.

Yak - you usually stick to a reasonablly logical argument.

Whats you view on the order of taking options.

As I've indicated before I've gone from assuming there was no inherent order of taking upgrades, to being persuaded that there was (a long time ago), following a debate around some IG units, which do seem to want you to take options in the order you read them otherwise a lot of the exclusions are nonsense (they are nearly all based on excluding models taking options listed before it, so you'd get round them if you ignored order). Within 40k as a whole order of options is just not something that causes an issue in the vast majority of cases so it hardly ever comes up, and there is no rule to say order applies or does not apply. But presumably whatever you go with applies to all codices, therefore based on the IG wordings, and the basic idea that one implements rules in the order that you read them, I'm going on the basis of ordered choices being the way.

I've seen the odd 'Where does it say ordering is used' type comment, though that appears to be a fallacy of negative proof (which it would equally be to say 'where does it say you don't'), and no one seems to be able to actually explain why. So can someone like yourself who will actually put some reasoning behind it give your view point.

Posted By ShumaGorath on 11/04/2007 4:44 PM

Ok, so we are in agreement then.  While it does in fact state that they epitomise the orks skill all orks are best at bashing heads.  So the nob leads his mob by bashing heads rather than firing the gun for which the mob is named.  Thus since he is a close combat specialist it is fluffy for him to have a power klaw befitting of his role and station.

 

Man, glad we cleared that one up.

No we don't agree. I'm just glad that you eventually found the bit I said was there and you didn't seem to accept.

I know it's also argument by analogy, but ignoring all other rules, would the statis rule prevent the unit from using the other movement rule since all of them have to move the exact distance in the same direction.

But the basic argument is that every member of the mob who has one exchanging is not the same as the entire mob exchanging. As this is a permissive rules set and you do only what the rules say and exactly what they say, and take the least advantageous interpretation if there is a possibility of two different interpretations...All that adds up to no PK nob in a shoota squad.

The biggest flaw in the 'No' argument, as has been started in other threads, is that there is nothing to indicate that you cannot give the squad shootas if every model in the unit does not have sluggas and choppas.
The word 'entire' simply does not create a situation that fails unless criteria are met. It is possible to trade out all the choppas and sluggas in the entire unit, and still meet the grammatical requirements for 'entire.'

The 'no' interpretation requires either words that are not present in the rules, like 'only' or 'unless,' or it requires an imaginary order to give upgrades.

Actually, the 'yes' interpretation requires words not present in the argument, like 'that has them'.

:S

Right, because 'may' and 'must' mean the same thing.